Black Mercedes.

[TheDeuce]

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breakin...

I see what you've done Mercedes... That's quite some statement to be fair.

[TheDeuce]

Yea I like it too, very much. I've always loved black base colour on F1 cars.

[TheDeuce]

HedgeyGedgey said:

The thing that gets me is its all because Lewis has stood up and said its a white dominated sport. Its the best of the best, whats he suggesting that teams now shouldn't scout out the best of the best instead pick their team based on their race. Isnt that just racist anyway. And Mercedes answer to all this is to just paint the car black, do we now call them the black arrows? Or is that racist because one drive is black? Or do we call them the black and white arrows? Wait I've got it, the multicultural arrows!!!! Has a ring to it I think

This is the thing. F1 teams are surely a prime example of performance being king - 'the best person should get the job' isn't just a popular sentiment in F1, it's an absolute necessity. Which does make it puzzling that there does appear to be a shortage of black team members. It is sometimes the case that certain ethnic groups simply don't tend towards certain career paths of course, not all spheres of work can be artificially evened out.

Mercedes seem to be approaching this from a point of view of reaching out to more black people to get them on the path to a career in F1. Does that mean that Mercedes believe there is an unjust barrier to black people becoming interested in the first place? Do they think black people are at some stage being made to feel unwelcome? I'd be genuinely interested to understand what they feel is 'broken' that they seek to fix - or if it's simply a case of wanting a representative workforce, regardless of whether the desire to be in that workforce is itself even and representative across all parts of society. I'd like to think that this isn't just a reaction to current issues for the sake of reacting - it's so hard to tell these days though.

Anyway, whatever the reason the car looks fantastic!! I keep looking at the picture and to my eye, the best car on the grid is now also the best looking. Oddly the second best looking car in my view is now the Williams (sans Rokit)..

[TheDeuce]

REALIST123 said:

sparta6 said:

SmoothCriminal said:

SO woke, SO stunning, SO brave.

Wonder what the racial mix of Daimler AG is or even the merc racing team for that matter. Bet them muppets will be taking the knee before races aswell

I wonder if Lewis has studied the history of Daimler and the Nazi party ?

Surely, if he was aware of that he would never have driven for them, best car or not?

But then, he’s still associated with Hugo Boss so some parts of history maybe aren’t as important as others.

That would imply that you assume he has no belief that people can change - or more accurately that people long dead might have been replaced with others that have rather different views!

When he signed for Mercedes I'm he wasn't worried that place would be full of Nazi sympathisers in the same way that he wouldn't expect them to give him a car from that era either

[TheDeuce]

sparta6 said:

Or, perhaps, he has a selective memory when advancing his career

But why does it matter to him? He wouldn't be able to do anything or live anywhere if he avoided all connections with all companies and places that have some level or racial discrimination in their history. Britain certainly does..

He's judging those that he sees as creating problems with equality today. There isn't a problem with Daimler Benz's behavior or associations today so there is noting to fix or judge.

[TheDeuce]

ash73 said:

But it makes me cringe, blacking up the car doesn't exactly have the right connotations... imho.

It's an interesting and perhaps 'designed to be a talking point' initiative. If I had gone to the US GP last season with my face blacked up to support the battle against inequality in the sport, I'm not sure my point would have come across as hoped...

It also kind of supports colour being relevant, when it should not be. Then again, Formula W has kind of (in fact, absolutely has..) introduced segregation in to a sports series that has since day one avoided such practices - and that seems to have been fully acceptable socially.

From a corporate POV Mercedes have probably played this one very well. From a logical POV it's easy to pick a few holes if you think about it in depth... But regards their corporate position and goals, it was a good move imo.

[TheDeuce]

Muzzer79 said:

If someone can't differentiate between painting a car black as part of an initiative to promote equality and blacking up one's face then they shouldn't be allowed to make adult decisions.

People alter their appearance to mirror and support several causes. In any case, that was really my point - blacking up does have certain connotations and of course it would be a bad personal decision to make. By the same token, the decision to black up the car is very... bold. Intentionally of course.

Personally I would rather the cars remained free of any skin colour reference - but I can appreciate that its designed to send a signal and be a talking point.

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 29th June 15:59

[TheDeuce]

sparta6 said:

How on earth does a person's choice of street car purchases relate to viewpoints on F1 driver conduct such as Max, Hamilton, Leclerc or Vettel ?

I've also commented on Ricciardo but don't have a Renault in my stable.

You're the one who questioned whether or not Lewis should be more aware of his choice of team given the (distant) past of their namesake owners...

Why on earth do you expect he should care about Mercedes ancient history anymore than you should when you drive a Merc?

[TheDeuce]

PanicBuyingBogRoll said:

Buying those cars clearly demonstrate someone who supports Nazi and fascist ideology.

Oops... I've got a BMW on the drive. They assisted the Nazi's too...

The problem is, autotrader's website doesn't have a 'zero racial connotations' filter. It's easy to end up with the wrong car

[TheDeuce]

kiseca said:

TheDeuce said:

PanicBuyingBogRoll said:

Buying those cars clearly demonstrate someone who supports Nazi and fascist ideology.

Oops... I've got a BMW on the drive. They assisted the Nazi's too...

The problem is, autotrader's website doesn't have a 'zero racial connotations' filter. It's easy to end up with the wrong car

You've got a BMW? I thought you were a nice guy!

BMW drivers are very misunderstood. The only reason we all drive and park like aholes is because people never let us out of side roads - it's a vicious circle

[TheDeuce]

thegreenhell said:

TheDeuce said:

BMW drivers are very misunderstood. The only reason we all drive and park like aholes is because people never let us out of side roads - it's a vicious circle

BMW drivers seem to have mellowed over the last few years. Most of the real s have moved on to driving Audis anyway.

Oh quite a few s still drive Beemers. It's just that BMW sell so many cars these days, their simply aren't enough s to go round anymore.

[TheDeuce]

amgmcqueen said:

Sorry but i hate to see this pathetic, virtue signalling nonsense.

Sport and politics should never mix.

It's increasingly hard to maintain that as 'sport is a platform' from which to fix the world.. That's the new sentiment, if you can do something, you should.

Which is a shame, as we're all bombarded with this stuff in the media constantly - and generally I agree with the issues people are seeking to solve... But watching F1 used to be a pure F1 only escape from everything else. I don't think it's unreasonable that sport should exist in it's own little universe, or that we should all have avenues of escape from the furore of modern life.

[TheDeuce]

Europa1 said:

rscott said:

HedgeyGedgey said:

The thing that gets me is its all because Lewis has stood up and said its a white dominated sport. Its the best of the best, whats he suggesting that teams now shouldn't scout out the best of the best instead pick their team based on their race. Isnt that just racist anyway. And Mercedes answer to all this is to just paint the car black, do we now call them the black arrows? Or is that racist because one drive is black? Or do we call them the black and white arrows? Wait I've got it, the multicultural arrows!!!! Has a ring to it I think

That's not what Mercedes are saying at all - their announcement is that they'll aim to widen the sources they attract applicants from, to encourage people who may not normally apply. Not that they'll be selecting who they employ to hit quotas.

They even use the words "attracting talent" in their press release.

But why, under their normal recruitment sources, are they less likely to attract a representative number of black people compared to white people?

Why does getting the "representative" number of black people on board require special effort? I'm thinking at the very start of the process at school.. It's not as if black pupils don't have the exact same opportunities to get in to engineering or various technologies as the white students.

Serious question: Why aren't there a representative number of black people entering the sport via the existing channels that white people enter?

[TheDeuce]

Europa1 said:

HustleRussell said:

TheDeuce said:

But why, under their normal recruitment sources, are they less likely to attract a representative number of black people compared to white people?

If you read into it, the exercise is primarily a research effort to explore questions like this. That is why what they are doing, in typically annoying Mercedes / Hamilton style, is precisely correct.

Indeed, and it's something the profession as a whole is starting to think about - why aren't kids from those backgrounds (or more women) choosing engineering as a career? And some of the answer to that is trying to educate parents more about engineering as a career, which some research suggests is the problem - parents don't feel able to talk to their kids about engineering as a career because they themselves don't know about it or still perceive it as a job where you need to bathe in Swarfega at the end of every day.

Understood and agreed... But that still doesn't explain why black people are apparently less likely to find their way into engineering roles. And I work with engineers all over the world - few are black, no real clue as to why that is the case

As Russell says however, if Mercedes are setting out to find out 'why', the chances are they will. It could simply be personal preference at a young age that is more likely to send white kids down a path that could lead in engineering than black kids. If you surveyed 1000 white and 1000 black kids, the results could be interesting, but then you would have to unpick the reasons behind the responses - a gargantuan task. I'm sure Mercedes will get a decent job done though and throw some light on the issue in the end - they don't seem capable of failing.

[TheDeuce]

PanicBuyingBogRoll said:

The mental gymnastics people on here and other social media are doing to try and justify their hatred for this is staggering. It just goes to show it is exactly the right thing for Mercedes to be doing.

Who on here has said they hate it?

[TheDeuce]

TonyToniTone said:

anyone who mentioned woke, wasn't doing so because they love it.

Can't stand the word 'woke'. I love the paint job though... I remain divided on whether or not I agree with this sort of campaign being so poignant in motorsport.

It's obviously doing it's job though, it's a talking point. It absolutely WILL work in that regard.

[TheDeuce]

TravelsVeryRapid said:

What seems to be escaping some people is that the BML movement is just a front for another agenda. If you read their website it’s about defunding the police, abolishing capitalism and democracy.

I think it's common knowledge that is part of it... But this thread isn't really about BLM. Nor is Mercedes new paint job or initiative.

[TheDeuce]

ash73 said:

rscott said:

ash73 said:

TheDeuce said:

TravelsVeryRapid said:

What seems to be escaping some people is that the BML movement is just a front for another agenda. If you read their website it’s about defunding the police, abolishing capitalism and democracy.

I think it's common knowledge that is part of it... But this thread isn't really about BLM. Nor is Mercedes new paint job or initiative.

So they won't be taking a knee then?

I'll believe that when I see it.

Taking a knee isn't exclusively used as support for the entire BLM agenda - it's often used to simply protest against racial inequality.

It's been appropriated by BLM. Anyone who kneels is tacitly supporting their nonsense; and they'll all be pressured to do it.

This reminds me of the Arab Spring, all the idiots got excited about their brave new world and I knew it would be a disaster from the start.

To be clear, I'm not oblivious to the timing of Mercedes new initiative. But it is important to note that they have distanced themselves by not supporting BLM directly - aspects of which clearly don't fit with Mercedes image or intentions.

Mercedes have made a move that satisfies their need to respond 'somehow' as it seems everyone is expected to respond somehow. They have also no doubt delighted their star driver, ensured endless positive headlines for themselves and as a kicker their car now looks better than ever. And they might even get to the bottom of the question as to why there are not more black people in F1.

They've played their hand very well on this.

[TheDeuce]

ukaskew said:

TheDeuce said:

Understood and agreed... But that still doesn't explain why black people are apparently less likely to find their way into engineering roles. And I work with engineers all over the world - few are black, no real clue as to why that is the case

We've done a lot of unconscious bias research at my workplace and it's remarkable how much that creeps in and just how prevalent it is. If you imagine that all the way through the chain, from school careers advisers to recruitment agencies to interview panels etc, it could be - for example - that people of colour or indeed women are steered away from engineering, motorsport etc in subtle ways without anyone even realising they are doing it. I've no doubt Mercedes will do a deep dive on all of that to get to the bottom of it.

Quite timely but a study was released today showing football commentators are significantly more likely to praise light skinned players for their intelligence, creativity etc, where as dark skinned players are praised for their pace and power.

That sort of thing can be found everywhere. It's not about employing people of colour to make up quotas, it's about finding out why they may be underrepresented in the first place and trying to fix why that might be.

Yes I had a discussing with Mrs Deuce earlier today about unconscious bias etc, it's bound to occur, it's human nature to generalise - that's why the world's most advanced AI can't reliably tell the difference between a large stool or a small coffee table, but we can. I'm sure Mercedes will dig until they find the logic of what is causing certain imbalances, and why, in F1 specifically. They might find that each answer results in a whole new raft of questions to answer however.

Specifically in the example of football commentators, I suppose the question would ultimately be if they have a view/expectation of black players due to incorrect racial stereotyping, or if that subconscious view has developed because statistically black players are indeed more likely to employ speed and power and white players more likely to rely on quick thinking (need the stats on play style in addition to the stats on how commentators relate to have the full equation). The further such questions are pushed, the more likely it is that some interesting answers could result. I think part of the problem is that as a species we currently seek equality in very basic terms.. at some point we may have to accept that the provision of opportunity should be equal, but that the uptake of that opportunity in many cases never will be. Also that there are thousands of generations of breeding and culture behind each racial group and that will result in different concentrations of ability, skill, desire and instinct.

All people should be treated as equal overall. But when trialled in certain jobs or skills, it's surely certain that different groups will prove to have differing levels of ability (statistically overall), or quite simply different levels of inclination.

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 30th June 00:49

[TheDeuce]

ash73 said:

TheDeuce said:

All people should be treated as equal overall.

That's a utopian dream. We all judge people on their appearance in the first 30 seconds we meet them. Taller, more attractive people get more senior roles, more lenient sentences, etc... irrespective of race.

You cut that one quote out of my post that also addressed the issue of natural human generisation and assumption. Why?

And equal 'overall' obviously transcends an initial 30 second personal opinion of someone. That's down to who meets who... But overall, across all such meetings, for every meeting where a person isn't well received there will likely be someone else out there who could have met them and would have received them very well. Hence 'overall'.

You can break any statistical trend if you sample the outcome only once.