Honda to leave F1
Discussion
Supersam83 said:
They have burnt their bridges at Renault so it’s up to Mercedes or Ferrari to give them engines.
Horner risks losing Verstappen now.
Horner had excellent relations with Both Ferrari and Mercedes. He hasn’t tried to de-stabilise either, at all, ever Horner risks losing Verstappen now.
What will Sparta say ? Poor Maximus
Gazzab said:
Ultimately it’s too expensive and too complex.
Time for a rethink F1.
All of the “making F1 tech road car relevant” is killing the sport.Time for a rethink F1.
Road cars are clearly moving towards electrification so no point in developing ever more complex hybrid power trains.
Exciting and powerful F1 engines could be available at a fraction of the cost.
We might have to say goodbye to many of the manufacturers but that might just be evolution.
Deesee said:
The new PU supplier will be the existing marquee with the fewest customers...
Sure the Renault guys are scouring the internet as we speak and making a YouTube video of all of Max’s greatest Renault slags from the cockpit One of the supply conditions will be Max getting a Renault tattoo on his ar$e
Deesee said:
Exige77 said:
I think we all know there is no alternative to Renault and RB getting back together but it t will be Horner and Max eating the humble pie.
That first contact between them will be amusing.
Or he could try and get a deal with Merc or Ferrari..That first contact between them will be amusing.
Danez said:
hondas return to F1 has been a joke
Would love for the engine regs to be pushed closer and cosworth returning
Not sure it’s been a joke ?Would love for the engine regs to be pushed closer and cosworth returning
They started “late” and eventually produced a competitive / legal engine with similar performance to Ferrari / Renault.
Mercedes have just done a better job than the rest over the whole of the hybrid era.
Sure if I was Honda I would be disappointed with all the effort and little success.
Electrification now beckons for the mass market car brands.
citizensm1th said:
Jinba Ittai said:
What will be interesting is how this effects Hamilton's contract bargaining position. Suddenly, Max is going to be very keen to jump ship to Mercedes, which will weaken Hamilton's position significantly. He won't agree to a one year deal, so do Mercedes go for a Max/Lewis dream team from 2022? Show Lewis the door and get Max alongside Russell for 2022? Or does Lewis walk away at the end of the year having won his seventh world title? Possibly buy Max out of the last year of his RB contract?
A lot of wishful thinking right there Dream team for who ? Certainly not for Mercedes .
Jinba Ittai said:
Exige77 said:
citizensm1th said:
Jinba Ittai said:
What will be interesting is how this effects Hamilton's contract bargaining position. Suddenly, Max is going to be very keen to jump ship to Mercedes, which will weaken Hamilton's position significantly. He won't agree to a one year deal, so do Mercedes go for a Max/Lewis dream team from 2022? Show Lewis the door and get Max alongside Russell for 2022? Or does Lewis walk away at the end of the year having won his seventh world title? Possibly buy Max out of the last year of his RB contract?
A lot of wishful thinking right there Dream team for who ? Certainly not for Mercedes .
Kraken said:
LP670 said:
why ban CVTs, double clutch gearboxes, active suspension, traction control, abs, ground effect skirts, fan cars etc? because it ruins the spectacle id say, nothing to do with being dinosaurs. change the regs so the engines sound like racing cars and not hoovers, and manual gearboxes so the drivers have to work harder. the teams can still develop these solutions till the cows come home.
Not even the most basic of junior racing still use manual gear boxes. That really is dinosaur technology as far as racing goes. There will be zero or negligible interaction between driver (now passenger) and machine.
Linking racing cars to road car technology has no future.
It has to become a standalone sport for the fun of racing if it is to be interesting for spectators.
Of course that won’t interest the car makers marketing teams but possible others may step in ?
Maybe NA and manual might be the way to go ?
People still race horses and fly old planes ?
DanielSan said:
Even though they are obliged to supply, that first meeting will be amusing.Cyril is going to be grinning from ear to ear.
The Moose said:
spunkytherabbit said:
I think the decision goes way above Cyril's head. He is the face of their F1 team and the person who is seen as the go to for Renault F1 matters but I doubt very much he makes the final decision on customer engines. Sure they are obliged to supply under the regs but taking this situation away for a minute, someone else runs the engine and customer supply side. Wolff probably has similar watching brief and is a gate keeper for customer conversations with Merc customers but you can bet he doesn't make the final supply decision.
Cyril will have no more power of veto than this. Especially given he isn't presiding over a successful works team. He's got far more pressing concerns meeting the demand for results from the parent company than who any given engine customer is. If he is sensible about it he will step back from this and leave RBR to deal with the customer service side of the setup and focus on his own problems. The limelight of Alonso will only distract for so long after all.
Although you have to allow the man some degree of smugness about it if RBR have to go back to Renault. But let's not confuse smugness with power of veto. Cyril is just a gatekeeper in this, not the lord of the manor.
As Toto is a significant share holder I suspect he could very well veto a decision to supply another team.Cyril will have no more power of veto than this. Especially given he isn't presiding over a successful works team. He's got far more pressing concerns meeting the demand for results from the parent company than who any given engine customer is. If he is sensible about it he will step back from this and leave RBR to deal with the customer service side of the setup and focus on his own problems. The limelight of Alonso will only distract for so long after all.
Although you have to allow the man some degree of smugness about it if RBR have to go back to Renault. But let's not confuse smugness with power of veto. Cyril is just a gatekeeper in this, not the lord of the manor.
Teddy Lop said:
jsf said:
Honda dont sack staff, they transfer them to the new project.
Their IP is going nowhere Honda dont have control over.
I heard its quite mucky with both red bull and reputedly ilmor having input into its development. Their IP is going nowhere Honda dont have control over.
thegreenhell said:
Exige77 said:
Not sure Ilmore (now Mercedes high performance powertrains) the company where involved. I believe Mario Illien the person might have done some consulting for RB/Honda.
Ilmor Engineering is still going as an independent consulting business. After Mercedes bought the original Ilmor company and rebranded it, Ilien repurchased the non-F1 part of the business from them and renamed it back to Ilmor. They've been doing lots of work in MotoGP, Indycar and marine engines, as well as F1.A J C said:
Proving that the quest for the mighty Dollar is stronger than everything else,and they apparently don't give a toss about F1 or its fans, here's the statement that Honda released about IndyCar:“Honda welcomes this step to the future by IndyCar, action that mirrors Honda’s efforts to develop and manufacture high-performance, electrified products that will meet industry challenges and delight our customers,” said Honda Performance Development president Ted Klaus.
“At Honda, we race to develop our people, to innovate technologies and to engage fans. We are proud of our uninterrupted, 27-year leadership in IndyCar, and look forward to delivering a next-generation Honda 2.4-litre hybrid power unit with more than 900 horsepower.”
It’s probably much cheaper to develop these Indy powertrains than the F1 type.“At Honda, we race to develop our people, to innovate technologies and to engage fans. We are proud of our uninterrupted, 27-year leadership in IndyCar, and look forward to delivering a next-generation Honda 2.4-litre hybrid power unit with more than 900 horsepower.”
All of this long life, fuel flow restrictions and other limitations make the F1 units too expensive.
They where conceived when road electrification was far away and not mainstream.
DanielSan said:
Blib said:
DanielSan said:
Someone listened to Missed Apex on Friday
Totally! Best podcast out there, imo. It makes sense to me.
$30M ish per season ?
TheDeuce said:
jsf said:
F1 could very easily do without the manufacturers, if they all decide to bugger off a new formula will be written.
In the era i work with, there are very few manufacturer teams. Even Ferrari wasn't classed as a manufacturer because the road cars were sold to fund the race team, not the other way round.
They sold the road cars to fund the race team? Why not just keep the money and not race? They must have been getting something of value from their racing exploits..In the era i work with, there are very few manufacturer teams. Even Ferrari wasn't classed as a manufacturer because the road cars were sold to fund the race team, not the other way round.
It was just a means to an end.
entropy said:
Oilchange said:
The assumption that F1 exists because of the big companies, I think, is wrong too.
F1 exists and is marketed to an audience. That audience, if big enough, attracts the businesses. Not the other way around.
Trying to be all battery powered and thus dull and you lose the drama and therefor the audience.
But manufacturers bring a certain cachet to F1, don't they? Well, at the very least with a name that can stir the soul and fuel romanticism and the only company capable of this is Cosworth and then you're looking at large brand companiesF1 exists and is marketed to an audience. That audience, if big enough, attracts the businesses. Not the other way around.
Trying to be all battery powered and thus dull and you lose the drama and therefor the audience.
If you take the example of Le Mans 24 hrs interest dwindles and flourishes depending on the manufacturer competition. It was only a few years ago some PHers claimed WEC was superior to F1 when it was Porsche v Audi v Toyota.
Or how about BTCC? It took a number of years for it to re-establish its audience; in the 2000s many pined for the Super Touring era.
I think there are a few F1 teams people might know ?
TheDeuce said:
M5-911 said:
TheDeuce said:
That's an additional reason it won't happen of course! Although we have to assume that at some point Ferrari will be trying to sort out the lack of power.
It might not happen (especially with the power deficit) but the door is definitely not closed as you mentioned. The only closed door is Mercedes. Plenty of talks are happening as we are debating. We might / could supply you ?
Teddy Lop said:
antspants said:
Norris was saying in his post qualifying interview, that they already know from the data that the Ferrari isn't a bad car in the corners, so on a circuit that isn't power sensitive it looks a lot better. However I do think that LeClerc is leaving nothing on the table (very overused phrase by the drivers today) whereas Vettel is simply going through the motions (and I can't really blame him.)
I could. If he wanted to go through the motions, drive a bus. He should be doing all he can to prove them wrong.Too many mistakes week in week out.
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