The Official F1 2022 silly season *contains speculation*
Discussion
.HustleRussell said:
Yep have long believed that it’s Russell to Mercedes for ‘22. I think this fact has something to do with Mercedes and Hamilton’s inability to agree terms beyond 2021 as well. I expect they’ll resolve it and Hamilton will remain, but he will have to accept that he is losing Bottas and gaining a potentially more challenging and disruptive teammate.
If I was Mercedes, I wouldn’t want to push Hamilton away, however I also wouldn’t want to waste an opportunity to have the apprentice learn from working in parallel with the master.
If they get all 8 championships then I think they have more to gain from a Hamilton-Russell battle for a year or two, even if it means risking the WDC/WCC. If I was Mercedes, I wouldn’t want to push Hamilton away, however I also wouldn’t want to waste an opportunity to have the apprentice learn from working in parallel with the master.
Lewis is the present but he is not the long term strategic future of the team.
kiseca said:
This is how it will work, at least in the UK. The court will favour the employee and will be extremely unlikely to rule on a contract that keeps them out of pay for 6 months (probably even for 2 months) in the industry and at a pay rate that he is skilled in and used to earning. The only way for Red Bull to keep him out of Aston Martin for 2 years would be to give him full pay for that whole period, or convince AM to pay his gardening leave - and I don't know why AM would agree to that because as far as I can see they wouldn't need to. They would also need the individual's agreement to this unless it's already in his contract.
If he doesn't have contracted gardening leave, I think he can pretty much stick two fingers up at them if he chooses to, and even if they do put him on gardening leave, I think it's incredibly unlikely he'd actually spend that period having no contact with AM and helping them build a competitive car while his knowledge is still current. It would be almost impossible to police even if some familiar looking parts or concepts start popping up on the Aston Martin cars.
It's a shame BV72 isn't around any more. IANAL but recall many of his comments about how restrictive covenants are enforced all of the time post termination, etcIf he doesn't have contracted gardening leave, I think he can pretty much stick two fingers up at them if he chooses to, and even if they do put him on gardening leave, I think it's incredibly unlikely he'd actually spend that period having no contact with AM and helping them build a competitive car while his knowledge is still current. It would be almost impossible to police even if some familiar looking parts or concepts start popping up on the Aston Martin cars.
kiseca said:
Happy to be corrected by someone who has inside experience of high profile moves in Formula 1. I've seen plenty of high profile people in industries with limited competition move and, country dependant it can be very unlikely for their ex company to manage to enforce employment restrictions on them without some kind of compensation. None of those were in Formula 1 so happy to hear examples to the contrary.
Merc didn't seem to manage it with the engine people that went to Red Bull unless I've missed something.
Breadvan did post lots on the subject for UK employees and I think he literally wrote the reference book on the topic. Sadly he has been expunged from PH so the search is proving flaky.Merc didn't seem to manage it with the engine people that went to Red Bull unless I've missed something.
Edited by kiseca on Wednesday 30th June 17:38
Sandpit Steve said:
Six months’ gardening leave is fine, any more than that gets frowned upon by a court, especially in a role that is based on continuous evolution of knowledge and technology.
Not true. Each contract is weighed in its merits. I have colleagues on one years notice for rare skills. It is not as straight forward as a sweeping statement of "any more than that gets frowned upon by a court," unless you can cite cases.TheDeuce said:
Have your colleagues actually challenged that notice/non-compete period in court, and paid tens of thousands, maybe quite a bit more, to pursue the case through the courts and appeals system having potentially failed at the first couple of hurdles?
Not to my knowledge as they are smart people who read their contracts (and maybe take legal advice) before signing...APontus said:
imple answer is he's not championship material. He's a good plodder who can eek out tyre performance. He's never going to frighten a Verstappen/Hamilton.
Accept his position and enjoy. He isn't going to beat Max or Lewis for a WDC. So like Massa et al, enjoy the moments when you are on the top step and enjoy the racing. And the money.kambites said:
I believe this is true, but other than Mercedes where would he realistically go which is likely to be better for his career than staying at Williams?
Oh I think he is in the best place. Mercedes want to avoid another Rosberg<> Hamilton scenario; so they either change strategy and risk a close fight... but there aren't many places that it would be worth going to... other than RedBull who have finally reversed their internal promotion strategy.
thegreenhell said:
But that strategy only works for them as long as Hamilton is fully committed and means they need a someone less good in the second car. If they want Hamilton's successor already bedded in to the team when he retires in a couple of years then they need to think differently.
True. I just know how cautious the team are; I was fortunate to have lunch with one of the executive of the Mercedes F1 team who explained just how much pain, management time and the scars were created by the battle. APontus said:
People trot out 'but they don't want another Rosberg...' every time someone who isn't s
t gets mentioned for the second seat.
I don't buy it. You can't afford to have someone mediocre in the second seat and its a logical fallacy that every fast competent driver is going to turn raving Rosberg the moment they land.
You want the best driver paring you can afford without risking internal friction if igniting to flames.
I "trotted it out" as it was a verbatim statement from a member of the Mercedes leadership exec...t gets mentioned for the second seat. I don't buy it. You can't afford to have someone mediocre in the second seat and its a logical fallacy that every fast competent driver is going to turn raving Rosberg the moment they land.
You want the best driver paring you can afford without risking internal friction if igniting to flames.
I agree with you in that you don't want someone mediocre in the second seat, but the counter to that is that if they wanted 2 ultra fast drivers then Max would have been hired by now. Or Lando. or Sainz. etc
It is a very deliberate Lead and No 2 driver strategy. Their challenge is that they need their no 2 to be closer to their no 1 than he is.
APontus said:
They don't want another driver who behaves like Rosberg did, that's for sure. Not every superfast driver will behave like Rosberg, though.
True, but by the very nature of two drivers being very close then you increase the chances of a crash, or one perceiving that the other one ran them off the circuit. Then you start needing to manage the development parts and who gets what... and then data sharing across the garages... and what if a driver gives misleading feedback to the other?Top driver pairings - where you have the very best together competing for a WCC often goes awry:
- Villeneuve / Pironi
- Mansell / Piquet
- Prost / Senna
- Hamilton / Rosberg
- Hamilton / Alonso
- Vettel / Webber (close for many seasons and many fireworks)
APontus said:
Villeneuve Peroni didn't compete a full season at Ferrari (thought they still won the constructors). Rosberg won the championship having only won 1 race.
86/87 with Mansell and Piquet saw them win 18 out of 32 races, 2 constructors titles and 1 drivers'.
Prost and Senna saw them win 25 out of 32 races, 2 WCCs and two WDCs.
Hamilton and Rosberg won in 2014, 15 and 16 together with WCCs and WDCs.
Hamilton Alonso lost incredibly narrowly despite Alonso falling out with the entire team mid season and Hamilton being a rookie (which is more likely to blame for his failure to win the WDC than issues with Alonso).
Red Bull won 4 consecutive WDC/WCCs when Webber and Vettel were paired together.
If anything, you've compiled a list to show why having two close running top-level drivers is absolutely worth the hassle; they bring home the bacon. The main issues are cost and top drivers wanting weaker team mates.
I didn't say it wasn't worth it. I said Mercedes have evaluated it and decided to take a 1/2 driver strategy, as Ferrari did with MSC.86/87 with Mansell and Piquet saw them win 18 out of 32 races, 2 constructors titles and 1 drivers'.
Prost and Senna saw them win 25 out of 32 races, 2 WCCs and two WDCs.
Hamilton and Rosberg won in 2014, 15 and 16 together with WCCs and WDCs.
Hamilton Alonso lost incredibly narrowly despite Alonso falling out with the entire team mid season and Hamilton being a rookie (which is more likely to blame for his failure to win the WDC than issues with Alonso).
Red Bull won 4 consecutive WDC/WCCs when Webber and Vettel were paired together.
If anything, you've compiled a list to show why having two close running top-level drivers is absolutely worth the hassle; they bring home the bacon. The main issues are cost and top drivers wanting weaker team mates.
My point remains that they can be highly destructive and can just take points off each other (and/or cause collisions) - see all of the above - and intra-team battles... and reputation damage for sponsors.
Teddy Lop said:
I've heard that more than once.
1) Seems odd as I doubt bottas brings a ton of money?
2) If he's achieved all he will in F1, why tool around in a mid~rear grid car when he could go elsewhere and fight for wins, look at Ericson, grosjean etc. Mind, I guess you could say that for a list of drivers. Most years.
Stellantis (parent of Alfa) are not short of money and I don't think either driver brings much money these days... 1) Seems odd as I doubt bottas brings a ton of money?
2) If he's achieved all he will in F1, why tool around in a mid~rear grid car when he could go elsewhere and fight for wins, look at Ericson, grosjean etc. Mind, I guess you could say that for a list of drivers. Most years.
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