Discussion
I think for many it was the first time seeing drivers being killed live on tv and the images of what happened at Imola are stamped in our memories.
To see both Ratzenberger and Senna having accidents and not walking away was one thing but to watch CPR being administrated on the track was just beyond words.
I knew as soon as we saw Ratzenberger he was in an extremely critical situation but I still thought he would survive.
This was the same with Senna especially when his head moved but I was very much mistaken.
Seeing what was left after Senna was moved made it very clear he was not going to make it.
Even now it seems unreal.
To see both Ratzenberger and Senna having accidents and not walking away was one thing but to watch CPR being administrated on the track was just beyond words.
I knew as soon as we saw Ratzenberger he was in an extremely critical situation but I still thought he would survive.
This was the same with Senna especially when his head moved but I was very much mistaken.
Seeing what was left after Senna was moved made it very clear he was not going to make it.
Even now it seems unreal.
Eric Mc said:
I actually am far less morose and weepy about this than many. I grew up in an era where racing drivers occasionally got killed - even great ones. Senna's accident occurred in an era where many thought no more drivers would die in accidents.
I never thought that.
I always thought that Senna himself had a misguided belief that somehow he was immune from such incidents. As a result I thought he wasn't very perceptive and lacked imagination - and also lacked a sense of hubris.
You’re about the same age as my father! I never thought that.
I always thought that Senna himself had a misguided belief that somehow he was immune from such incidents. As a result I thought he wasn't very perceptive and lacked imagination - and also lacked a sense of hubris.
he was at Brands Hatch for the BOAC six hours in 68 (considering he lived in Manchester at the time, that was dedication) and Clark’s death was announced over the tannoy, the atmosphere just went in an instant. He too lived through that same era when countless drivers died in many different series but his hero was Ronnie Peterson and that fatality in particular really upset him. I remember him saying the death of Piers Courage had a similar effect.Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 3rd May 09:52
I still remember seeing the Barrichello accident and watching with disbelief when they righted the car by letting it drop when Barrichello was still sitting there.
Unbelievable even for 1994.
0.40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08xCZdj6VfY
Unbelievable even for 1994.
0.40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08xCZdj6VfY
Sandpit Steve said:
DeejRC said:
It’s interesting, but the flaming fireball of Berger into the Imola wall is actually a much more vivid memory for me. I was amazed anybody walked away from that.
One of my earliest F1 memories, I’d have been about 11. Almost the same accident as Senna five years later. A long 20 seconds in the fire, as with Grosjean last year - but with significantly different safety standards. Still amazed they both got out. Bahrain last year was a big flashback for me, to Berger’s accident.
Berger's accident was hard but Senna crashed further around and it was more of a head-on hit when Bergers was more a side impact.
Every accident at Tamborello was due to a car issue. It was the one place you didn't want to have a problem.
I am sure even a thin wall of tires would have made a difference.
Eric Mc said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Yes, Berger's accident was horrific when the car set alight. It seemed to be burning for a while but the fire crews were quite quick. The fire was out for 20 seconds.
Berger's accident was hard but Senna crashed further around and it was more of a head-on hit when Bergers was more a side impact.
Every accident at Tamborello was due to a car issue. It was the one place you didn't want to have a problem.
I am sure even a thin wall of tires would have made a difference.
Piquet had a big accident there in 1987. I don't think you can assert that all accidents at Tamburello were down to car breakages. It was pretty much a flat out left hand bend. The slightest bump could unload a car and G forces would skip it out to the right as the suspension unloaded.Berger's accident was hard but Senna crashed further around and it was more of a head-on hit when Bergers was more a side impact.
Every accident at Tamborello was due to a car issue. It was the one place you didn't want to have a problem.
I am sure even a thin wall of tires would have made a difference.
The right hand bend before the main straight at the old Mexican GP circuit was something similar and oddly enough, Senna flew off that bend in a McLaren totally down to bottoming and being flung off the road by the G forces.
I am amazed some fans still think Senna's accident at Tamburello wasn't the steering column.
Muzzer79 said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
I am amazed some fans still think Senna's accident at Tamburello wasn't the steering column.
Without wanting to debate this on a thread about marking his death, I'm surprised that some can't accept the explanation that he was pushing too hard on cold tyres in a skittish car and lost it.The Williams was a skittish car but in slow corners. Both Hill and Senna made mistakes during practice and qualifying sessions. Hill spun the Williams on the last corner at Imola twice but all at low speed. Senna did the same at Villeneuve at low speed.
Regarding the cold tyres if this was the case then why did Senna not crash on the first restart lap? He set the lap record on that last lap which was only beaten later in the 2nd race. A lap of Imola would have had the tyres at the perfect temperature before the accident.
The simple fact is Senna was a passenger in the Williams after the car had an issue. The verdict as follows.
The Italian Court of Appeal, on 13 April 2007, stated the following in the verdict numbered 15050: "It has been determined that the accident was caused by a steering column failure. This failure was caused by badly designed and badly executed modifications. The responsibility of this falls on Patrick Head, culpable of omitted control".
Eric Mc said:
This has been debated forever on PH.
Too many people seem to imbue Senna with God like qualities and can't countenance the fact that he might have made an error or stepped over the limit. After all, Gods have no limits.
Senna was not God. He was a great driver - but like all drivers, he occasionally made mistakes.
It's nothing to do with Senna and "God-like qualities" it's the fact a driver was negotiating a curve that he was about to exit yet went straight on. Too many people seem to imbue Senna with God like qualities and can't countenance the fact that he might have made an error or stepped over the limit. After all, Gods have no limits.
Senna was not God. He was a great driver - but like all drivers, he occasionally made mistakes.
Everyone knew the risks at Tamburello and the last thing you wanted to happen was to have a mechanical issue. As drivers have stated it was a fast curve, not a corner.
The one car on the grid that had a very poor steering column adjustment is the one that goes straight on killing the driver. Newey himself stated it was not IF but WHEN the column broke but then says it wasn't the column.
Make of it what you like as we all have different opinions.
Thankfully in the end the Court came to the correct verdict.
entropy said:
What killed Senna was a piece of suspension piercing his skull. Recreate the accident a dozen times and you'd probably get a dozen outcomes and trajectories of debris and broken parts.
Prost?? Principles? Eric Mc said:
Maybe he should have done a Lauda that day - just walked away.
This is why Lauda and Prost are heroes. Having big balls made of steel is just about how quickly you can go but having convictions and principles and living up to them with the right moral compass even if it may appear as a weakness to others.entropy said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Prost?? Principles?
Didtn't want to start the 1989 Australian GP. Didn't he retire out of his own volition after a few laps?Alas, it didn't work for him that day.
Senna and Mansell in agreement regarding Prost and the Williams drive for 1993. Footage below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFZKkK6odgY
Gary C said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
This was the same with Senna especially when his head moved but I was very much mistaken.
That bit when his head moved, sticks in my mind too.A flash of hope that didn't last.
After seeing him moved and what was on the track and then the fact Watkins didn't travel with Senna it was pretty clear.
They knew he was dead as soon as he was extracted.
Really after that the race should never have restarted.
Eric Mc said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
It's nothing to do with Senna and "God-like qualities" it's the fact a driver was negotiating a curve that he was about to exit yet went straight on.
Everyone knew the risks at Tamburello and the last thing you wanted to happen was to have a mechanical issue. As drivers have stated it was a fast curve, not a corner.
The one car on the grid that had a very poor steering column adjustment is the one that goes straight on killing the driver. Newey himself stated it was not IF but WHEN the column broke but then says it wasn't the column.
Make of it what you like as we all have different opinions.
Thankfully in the end the Court came to the correct verdict.
Thankfully?Everyone knew the risks at Tamburello and the last thing you wanted to happen was to have a mechanical issue. As drivers have stated it was a fast curve, not a corner.
The one car on the grid that had a very poor steering column adjustment is the one that goes straight on killing the driver. Newey himself stated it was not IF but WHEN the column broke but then says it wasn't the column.
Make of it what you like as we all have different opinions.
Thankfully in the end the Court came to the correct verdict.
What is there to give thanks for?
Eric Mc said:
Mark A S said:
I had 3 days before his death just separated from wife no 2, so was feeling rather down but looked forward to the GP on 1st May.
I am 99.9% sure steering failure caused him to crash, even with aero loss etc, cars do not tend to drive strait into a wall without some form of driver correction changing the cars attitude, he was Very unlucky.
It does when it bottoms out and gets deflected. The car was taboganning i.e. the front wheels were actually off the ground with no steering possible.I am 99.9% sure steering failure caused him to crash, even with aero loss etc, cars do not tend to drive strait into a wall without some form of driver correction changing the cars attitude, he was Very unlucky.
He was not a God. He made mistakes - all the time. Like all racing drivers, he had plenty of crashes where he made errors. Why are people so enthralled with his rather bonkers semi-mystic personality? He was a human who made errors - like all of us.
Every single Senna thread is the same, no one claims he was a god or infallible but you argue he wasn’t anyway... you seem to chop and change between “the car bottomed out and he had no steering” and “he made a mistake” depending upon the weather.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 5th May 13:22
Eric Mc said:
Those that refuse to accept that his death might have been made due to driver error are, de facto, assuming he could not make an error.
That is the issue. They have placed him in some sort of glorified saintly box where he was incapable of making a mistake. It's blindingly obvious in the way they LONG for the accident to have been down to some mechanical cause - and not human error.
Unfortunately, it seems your dislike for Senna clouds your actual judgment. That is the issue. They have placed him in some sort of glorified saintly box where he was incapable of making a mistake. It's blindingly obvious in the way they LONG for the accident to have been down to some mechanical cause - and not human error.
Senna was not a god. No one has ever stated that. He was human and of course made mistakes.
Unfortunately for Senna, his Williams team is also human and clearly made a mistake that cost Senna his life.
It was stated in court that the column could have broken but the sensors would still pick up steering movement due to the placement of the sensor at the steering wheel.
After everything I have studied about the subject I would state the bumps at Tamburello snapped the fragile steering column and this is what caused Senna to have no control and crash.
Just like every other accident at that curve, it was a mechanical issue.
LukeBrown66 said:
AS I said before there are those that treated him differently, I remember being at Silverstone on Friday in 93, sat in the stands and there was this grown man, English by voice, Brazilain flags everywhere, Marlboro everywhere, all the shirts etc, he was ONLY there to see Senna, nothing else mattered, once it stopped he left, not bothered by anything else.
That to me is odd, and sort of only happened with Ayrton I think. When you hear Prost talk about the test at Pembrey when they all had it out in 89 after Imola and you hear that Ayrton was crying, I mean this is not really a good sign, that would be worrying to me as a team boss, but Dennis embraced it.
Watch the press conference at Adelaide after 89, the passion in Dennis's voice, the total and utter disbelief that this push start was so not a wrong thing to do, I find it all very sad, very petulant and he was clearly allowed to be this guy by McLaren, and was obviously NOT finding that situation at Williams nor would it ever be there perhaps.
Why is that odd? I was at Silverstone in 1995 and many of the crowd left when Hill went out. Same with Schumacher in Germany.That to me is odd, and sort of only happened with Ayrton I think. When you hear Prost talk about the test at Pembrey when they all had it out in 89 after Imola and you hear that Ayrton was crying, I mean this is not really a good sign, that would be worrying to me as a team boss, but Dennis embraced it.
Watch the press conference at Adelaide after 89, the passion in Dennis's voice, the total and utter disbelief that this push start was so not a wrong thing to do, I find it all very sad, very petulant and he was clearly allowed to be this guy by McLaren, and was obviously NOT finding that situation at Williams nor would it ever be there perhaps.
This post is just rather laughable. The hate is clear.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
LukeBrown66 said:
AS I said before there are those that treated him differently, I remember being at Silverstone on Friday in 93, sat in the stands and there was this grown man, English by voice, Brazilain flags everywhere, Marlboro everywhere, all the shirts etc, he was ONLY there to see Senna, nothing else mattered, once it stopped he left, not bothered by anything else.
That to me is odd, and sort of only happened with Ayrton I think. When you hear Prost talk about the test at Pembrey when they all had it out in 89 after Imola and you hear that Ayrton was crying, I mean this is not really a good sign, that would be worrying to me as a team boss, but Dennis embraced it.
Watch the press conference at Adelaide after 89, the passion in Dennis's voice, the total and utter disbelief that this push start was so not a wrong thing to do, I find it all very sad, very petulant and he was clearly allowed to be this guy by McLaren, and was obviously NOT finding that situation at Williams nor would it ever be there perhaps.
Why is that odd? I was at Silverstone in 1995 and many of the crowd left when Hill went out. Same with Schumacher in Germany.That to me is odd, and sort of only happened with Ayrton I think. When you hear Prost talk about the test at Pembrey when they all had it out in 89 after Imola and you hear that Ayrton was crying, I mean this is not really a good sign, that would be worrying to me as a team boss, but Dennis embraced it.
Watch the press conference at Adelaide after 89, the passion in Dennis's voice, the total and utter disbelief that this push start was so not a wrong thing to do, I find it all very sad, very petulant and he was clearly allowed to be this guy by McLaren, and was obviously NOT finding that situation at Williams nor would it ever be there perhaps.
This post is just rather laughable. The hate is clear.
Eric Mc said:
Those that refuse to accept that his death might have been made due to driver error are, de facto, assuming he could not make an error.
That is the issue. They have placed him in some sort of glorified saintly box where he was incapable of making a mistake. It's blindingly obvious in the way they LONG for the accident to have been down to some mechanical cause - and not human error.
No that’s just incorrect extrapolation. He was human and made mistakes as you have proven on other similar threads so we all know and accept he was capable of making mistakes. The issue here is whether he made a mistake in this instance. You have your opinion, others have theirs. That is the issue. They have placed him in some sort of glorified saintly box where he was incapable of making a mistake. It's blindingly obvious in the way they LONG for the accident to have been down to some mechanical cause - and not human error.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
The conflicting statements about the vehicle data recorder and the "mysterious" way it was removed by Whiting and given to Williams intact, only for it to be returned with no data and smashed a month later always had me erring onto the mechanical failure of the steering column.
Exactly.Unfortunately too many have their views without actually taking the time to dig into what went on with the FIA and Williams
The biggest cover-up in F1 history.
Muzzer79 said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
After everything I have studied about the subject I would state the bumps at Tamburello snapped the fragile steering column and this is what caused Senna to have no control and crash.
Just like every other accident at that curve, it was a mechanical issue.
Just like every other accident at that curve, it was a mechanical issue.
Another armchair expert, delivering a verdict from your basement and delivering it as “fact”
LukeBrown66 said:
One thing I can always guarantee is that when there is a discussion about Senna or even Schumacher, there will be a majority who worship the men and a small number who do not, and actually think they are a little bit not over rated but put on a pedestal that their talent does not deserve.
And if you state this, there will usually be people calling you out for it, and using all sorts of rather unsavoury words against you, as has happened to me and Eric in this thread.
Prost does not get into this as he was not exciting, not flamboyant, he was studious, political to some degree. But what a lot of people do not know, is he fell foul of the press and politics as many times as he won.
The friendship these two had in the end was a massive bonus for Alain, it made everything alright, he understood it ALL. And that is what matters. At the time the hatred was real, it was huge and it was the biggest thing in the sport, add in stuff like Mansell, Piquet, Schumacher on the scene, the tech, the cars and it is no wonder that despite the fact the racing was not always great, that era is always quoted as the best
Jesus wept Luke, no one on this thread has said anything about hero worship other than you and Eric! you’re simply taking a contrary position to something no one has actually put forward but are now acting like the victim because you were called out.And if you state this, there will usually be people calling you out for it, and using all sorts of rather unsavoury words against you, as has happened to me and Eric in this thread.
Prost does not get into this as he was not exciting, not flamboyant, he was studious, political to some degree. But what a lot of people do not know, is he fell foul of the press and politics as many times as he won.
The friendship these two had in the end was a massive bonus for Alain, it made everything alright, he understood it ALL. And that is what matters. At the time the hatred was real, it was huge and it was the biggest thing in the sport, add in stuff like Mansell, Piquet, Schumacher on the scene, the tech, the cars and it is no wonder that despite the fact the racing was not always great, that era is always quoted as the best
I’ll make it easy for you, I think Senna was one of the greatest, I supported him with a passion no more or less than others supposed Mansell, Senna was definitely top five all time, he made mistakes and was human, he didn’t always race fair and he wasn’t a god.
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