What separates the excellent from the elite?

[StevieBee]

There are and have been many truly excellent drivers in F1.

Then there are the elite drivers - those that exist (or existed) on a separate level of excellence of which there are far fewer. We all know the names; Senna, Hamilton, Fangio, Clark, etc...

We can go round the houses arguing who is worthy of elite status but what I think may be more interesting is what it is that makes these drivers different to the rest. What are they doing - or not doing - compared to others? What is within them that makes them faster, for longer?

[StevieBee]

Nobody's mentioned tyres yet - or rather tyre management.

We think of this as a modern thing but has been an issue ever since, well, tyres were invented though has come into sharper focus in recent decades.

I think it was said of Clark that he'd come in after a race with tyres that looked unused. Prost was a tyre master, Hamilton certainly is.

I recall an articles in F! racing years back in which the author explained Schumacher's uncanny ability sense where the 'friction circle'. This, IIRC, is an area roughly the size of a lens cap on each tyre from which 70% of the grip comes from. It moves around constantly and he knew where it was and where it would go and adjust his style to suit.

[StevieBee]

M5-911 said:

cgt2 said:

I was lucky enough to be at Donington in 1993. If that wasn't greatness I don't know what else could define the term.

Not really when you know that he was the only front runner car on rain set up.

But why did nobody else set theirs up similarly? Is not that another mark of the elite that they are able to sense what's needed and mobiles a team accordingly.

[StevieBee]

HustleRussell said:

Mr Tidy said:

He was competitive in anything he drove, F1, F2, Saloon cars, etc.

I believe that any driver who can be competitive in an F1 car you would be competitive in any other form of circuit racing.

I'd say that's true to a point but limited only to other high power/speed formulae that uses aero and tyres in a similar manner - Indy, LMP1, etc. Outside of this it's far from a given.

Back in the day when Rallycross was super-popular a few F1 drivers gave it a go and got completely trounced by the regular drivers. As above, Touring Cars has not been kind on F1 drivers (add Herbert to that list!).

That said, I've often thought it would be an interesting exercise to see what would happen if you took the top 10 F1 drivers and stuck them in some 750MC club meet at Snetterton.

[StevieBee]

cgt2 said:

He told me when Senna came along he was the same as Prost, maybe even more as he had zero interest or focus on anything other than maximising success. I was told Prost had some degree of personal life but Senna appeared to have zero, even wanting to be at the factory on Christmas Day.

The more I look at Senna through the lens of today the more I think he existed on the Autistic spectrum. There was a certain 'distance' about him. And quite possibly, this was his advantage in that he had a singular focus in life.

[StevieBee]

Schermerhorn said:

StevieBee said:

cgt2 said:

He told me when Senna came along he was the same as Prost, maybe even more as he had zero interest or focus on anything other than maximising success. I was told Prost had some degree of personal life but Senna appeared to have zero, even wanting to be at the factory on Christmas Day.

The more I look at Senna through the lens of today the more I think he existed on the Autistic spectrum. There was a certain 'distance' about him. And quite possibly, this was his advantage in that he had a singular focus in life.

Not everyone talented is on the spectrum or has Autism. Goodness me.

Sometimes people just work hard and become good at things.

That's not what I'm suggesting at all. Of course not all talented people are on the spectrum but there are many on it that are and you often find their talent in a certain area is comparably greater.

Our knowledge of this is greater today than it was on the 80s and early 90s so applying this insight to Senna, one starts to see some traits that we now know to be common amongst those with Aspergers and the like.

[StevieBee]

Schermerhorn said:

I think, my opinion only, that nobody is born with talent. I believe hard work, dedication, commitment to learning and application yield the best results; to the point where it becomes completely natural in the basic humanistic behaviour pattern of that person.

This is a really interesting topic (well, I think so!)

When you look at athletic sports there are certain genetic traits that benefit one over another whether that's hight, muscle or whatever else is passed on from the parents. Some people are 'born' to run faster, jump higher, punch harder and so on. So whilst talent has to be trained into them, some have a head start.

But then there's the non-athletic sports - darts, snooker, golf... I had previously held the theory that if you got yourself a snooker table and did nothing other than practice playing snooker for 12 hours a day, you would eventually reach a point where you could compete professionally.

But I heard a sports psychologist on 5Live some years back explain that whilst the ability to complete professionally in any sport is within the grasp of most people if they put their mind to it, those that achieve proper, meaningful success have within them a capacity that goes beyond anything that can be trained or developed - it's an innate sense of what you need your body and mind to do to perform at a certain level in your chosen sport - and a drive to achieve.

I read an article about Jochen Rindt recently where the author said that he'd ride up to you in the paddock on a push bike and hold a conversation with you without the bike moving forward or back and without him putting a foot on the ground - such was his sense of balance.

So I guess the theory is that the elite are those with an in-built capacity and the foresight and commitment to capitalise on it. You have to have it all. Tommy Byrne is widely regarded as the most naturally gifted racing driver of the past 60 years - but lacked the ability to capitalise on his talent.

[StevieBee]

PhilAsia said:

StevieBee said:

Tommy Byrne is widely regarded as the most naturally gifted racing driver of the past 60 years - but lacked the ability to capitalise on his talent.

Is he? By who?

Mark Hughes, the Journalist is probably the most notable for taking this view. Roebuck too and many other journalists and professional observers have said as much in various books and articles over the years.

He won a F1 test in a McLaren. Senna put down a couple of marker laps and Byrne beat them pretty much first time out. Dennis didn't want him anywhere near the team and was only fulfilling an obligation to run him in the test. Worried the times may start a campaign to get him a seat, he asked the mechanics to detune the (either the engine or suspension, can't recall which). He still beat Senna's time.

Have a read of the book Crashed and Byrned. Very interesting read!

[StevieBee]

Muzzer79 said:

105.4 said:

Muzzer79 said:

What's autism got to do with the price of bread?

Stirling Moss was unquestionably elite. He could charm the pants off anyone and was about as far removed from autistic as you could get.

Single mindedness, stubbornness, pure, absolute focus on minor details.

I’m happy to be corrected, but don’t all of those attributes feature on the autism scale?

So does

Avoidance of eye contact
Reliance on rules and routines
Difficulty interacting socially
Over-sensitivity to loud noises

Functioning autistic people are generally noticeably socially awkward appearing, insular and isolated.

Does any of that sound like Senna, Clark, Stewart, Villeneuve or Hill?

Racing drivers by their nature are fiercely competitive therefore focus their attention on a task in order to win. It doesn't mean they are autistic though.

At least two and a half of your list could apply to Senna.

I'd also suggest Lauda displayed certain similar traits.

The theory was explored a few posts back starting with my observation of Senna displaying certain traits we know today to exist amongst those on the spectrum. That doesn't mean that you need to be on the spectrum be a great driver but does not necessarily harm one's prospects if you are and possibly affords an advantage.