What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?
Discussion
I'm not sure that Toto would be so damning of the concept and insistent that a new one is required unless that decision had already basically been made and something more promising was in the pipeline. It's not a kind of decision a team individual makes on the spur of the moment.
I've heard a number of commentators imply that this is out of the question in-season due to the budget cap. However, Aston Martin made a major concept turnaround in 2022 and ended the season with a very different car. Look at where they are now, a year later.
The team won't be happy with the way their season started but I think Toto's outspokenness is out of character and I wonder if it's a bit performative... project that they're in turmoil to take the pressure off and then turn up to Baku with essentially a B-spec?
Maybe there is preinvested facility within the car to quickly change to an alternative aerodynamic concept?
Maybe there's barely any paint on the car because it's even more of a 'prototype' than the others, the current configuration being transitional?
Which year was it where they rolled out a b-spec car for the second half of pre-season testing? 2020?
Am I on to something or am I going to just get a ton of 'copium' memes and gifs?
I've heard a number of commentators imply that this is out of the question in-season due to the budget cap. However, Aston Martin made a major concept turnaround in 2022 and ended the season with a very different car. Look at where they are now, a year later.
The team won't be happy with the way their season started but I think Toto's outspokenness is out of character and I wonder if it's a bit performative... project that they're in turmoil to take the pressure off and then turn up to Baku with essentially a B-spec?
Maybe there is preinvested facility within the car to quickly change to an alternative aerodynamic concept?
Maybe there's barely any paint on the car because it's even more of a 'prototype' than the others, the current configuration being transitional?
Which year was it where they rolled out a b-spec car for the second half of pre-season testing? 2020?
Am I on to something or am I going to just get a ton of 'copium' memes and gifs?
500TORQUES, what leads you to believe that the issue is CoG related? Most commentators seem to centre their criticisms around the aerodynamic philosophy (which may or may not be linked with CoG of course...)
CoG is one of those things that teams will obviously strive to lower every year, so it seems unlikely to me that they'd have decided to build a car with a considerably higher CoG than last year. I do recognise that the floor edge height has increased for this season which may exacerbate a CoG issue.
George commented that the FIA's 15mm increase in floor edge height might've gone a bit too far. Before the season started I thought that was a change which might reign Red Bull in and bring others closer!
CoG is one of those things that teams will obviously strive to lower every year, so it seems unlikely to me that they'd have decided to build a car with a considerably higher CoG than last year. I do recognise that the floor edge height has increased for this season which may exacerbate a CoG issue.
George commented that the FIA's 15mm increase in floor edge height might've gone a bit too far. Before the season started I thought that was a change which might reign Red Bull in and bring others closer!
500TORQUES, Thanks for coming back on my question about CoG. The car as it is does seem to have a jetpack / scooba tanks on its back.
FourWheelDrift said:
This year's car is still wearing last seasons dress due to a late change in design direction, meanwhile the 2023 Spring collection is delayed as it's still being sewn up and will appear on the Azerbaijan catwalk.
This is the kind of thing I am speculating about too. I feel like Hamilton would appreciate the metaphor sparta6 said:
Muzzer79 said:
sparta6 said:
What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?
Wolff searching for a new Michael Schumacher to close down their performance gap
good luck with that Toto
I doubt that. Wolff searching for a new Michael Schumacher to close down their performance gap
good luck with that Toto
They had the actual Michael Schumacher for a while and all he managed to do was trundle around in 8th, getting whipped by his young team mate.
yeah MSC should have stayed retired. Rosberg didn't deserve a medal for getting ahead of the old man
PhilAsia said:
sparta6 said:
Siao said:
sparta6 said:
Muzzer79 said:
They had the actual Michael Schumacher for a while and all he managed to do was trundle around in 8th, getting whipped by his young team mate.
yeah MSC should have stayed retired. Rosberg didn't deserve a medal for getting ahead of the old man
Fastest at Monaco Quali was pretty decent for an old guy in a non-front running car.
Must've downed a pint of Omega 3 beforehand.
Rosberg is also very underestimated. He outperformed Schumi in every measurable area over three seasons:
Podiums
Fastest laps
Overtakes
Qualifying
In the rain
And points in three seasons - two seasons having double Schumi's points.
Schumi was eclipsed by his equal status team mate.
Apart from being old, Schumacher was coming back from both an extended period where he hadn't raced and an injury.
Leaving the sport on grooved tyres and then returning on slicks. One year on Bridgestones and then adapting to Pirelli tyres, which completely changed the shape of the races, at 42...
I very much doubt there was a public expectation from MSC or the team that Michael was going to out-perform the young gun.
I expect Michael privately thought he might fare better than he did but I think Michael was very brave to come back, and climbed a mountain during those years. Obviously his value to the team was far greater than the driving alone, and he is one of the handful of people who get credited with the its ongoing success.
Alonso's a different thing entirely. Doesn't appear to have ever even contemplated retirement, raced every year and never slowed down, no kids etc.
Bo_apex said:
You are uncharacteristically late to bash Hamilton. Usually so prompt. Siao said:
HustleRussell said:
Bo_apex said:
You are uncharacteristically late to bash Hamilton. Usually so prompt. Hamilton's comments knocking some sense to them would actually be something good I think.
Siao said:
Bo_apex said:
HustleRussell said:
Bo_apex said:
You are uncharacteristically late to bash Hamilton. Usually so prompt. Moaning publicly via the media is poor conduct and could breed resentment from within the team.
thegreenhell said:
Starts at about 24 minutes in here if you want to hear the words straight from his mouth - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0f6zg32
Oooh I sure can can hear the resentment breeding 
Siao said:
PhilAsia said:
Siao said:
It's a shame that it took this interview for Mercedes to call a meeting about this, rather than listening to him in the first place.
I'm not saying you're wrong, as I generally do not follow this type of b
ky bks, but Is there any evidence for this?https://uksport.news/mercedes-is-holding-an-emerge...
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1021895/1/emergency-...
ETA: 'uksport.news' particularly hilarious. Hamilton "furious after the race and vented his frustration" apparently, referring to the same interview that can be heard on 5live (posted earlier in the thread)
Edited by HustleRussell on Monday 13th March 09:26
Also I think its fair to say that Russell was more scathing of Mercedes' level of competitiveness than Hamilton was, but it is Hamilton who goes in the headline because the mere mention of him gets a reaction from everyone.
This is not a criticism of Russell, I found both drivers refreshingly honest, and personally I feel that it was Toto's comments which were the most out of character.
This is not a criticism of Russell, I found both drivers refreshingly honest, and personally I feel that it was Toto's comments which were the most out of character.
SturdyHSV said:
HustleRussell said:
Also I think its fair to say that Russell was more scathing of Mercedes' level of competitiveness than Hamilton was, but it is Hamilton who goes in the headline because the mere mention of him gets a reaction from everyone.
This is not a criticism of Russell, I found both drivers refreshingly honest, and personally I feel that it was Toto's comments which were the most out of character.
I'd agree, and as you say Toto's seemed unusual too. This is not a criticism of Russell, I found both drivers refreshingly honest, and personally I feel that it was Toto's comments which were the most out of character.
All I was trying to ascertain really is what people's opinion was on what Lewis' feedback would have actually been, that MB then didn't listen to?
As in, sure, he can say "I don't think this aero / car concept is ever going to work", and then they stuck with it, so didn't listen to him etc. but presumably no matter how well he is regarded and his amount of experience, he (or any other driver) just doesn't have the required expertise to offer any actual meaningful insight at the sort of level needed?
On balance though, he has said previously in interviews (a long time ago) that he doesn't know as much about the engineering behind the car but that he is always trying to learn more and learn from the engineers, so there's obviously scope there for him to have developed a much better understanding in all of his time at MB, it just seems that they have this enormous and very capable and experience team of people developing the car, and no matter how experienced, Lewis is a racing driver first and foremost, not a chassis engineer or aerodynamicist?
I'm really not trying to criticise.
Given the upward trajectory Mercedes was on at the end of last season you could forgive them for thinking another 1.2s gain would put them right in the hunt. They won a race in Brazil.
I know this has always been the case, but with this latest influx of F1 fans there are suddenly more people than ever who think they know about F1 who don't in fact know about F1. As an example, prior to the reveal of the W14, there were probably tens of thousands of tweets and comments from people saying "It'd better be black and have sidepods!". Then when it was revealed it was "Wot no sidepods!". Finally after Bahrain it is "Why didn't they listen to Hamilton about the sidepods?". I don't think Mercedes have faced this kind of trial by social media before. Nonetheless they do want to onboard all of these possible fans no matter how much they have still to learn about the nuances of F1 car design.
I kind of feel that Mercedes are actually playing up to the situation a bit so that fans can see that they aren't satisfied and that radical changes will be made if necessary.
Hamilton has always been and will always be a popular driver despite what you may hear on here but a lot of the new fans are getting behind the younger generation of drivers too including George.
Mercedes are having their major wobble and suddenly there's a lot of pressure on Mercedes to deliver the car and take on nasty Red Bull.
I kind of feel that Mercedes are actually playing up to the situation a bit so that fans can see that they aren't satisfied and that radical changes will be made if necessary.
Hamilton has always been and will always be a popular driver despite what you may hear on here but a lot of the new fans are getting behind the younger generation of drivers too including George.
Mercedes are having their major wobble and suddenly there's a lot of pressure on Mercedes to deliver the car and take on nasty Red Bull.
NRS said:
mat205125 said:
HustleRussell said:
Mercedes are having their major wobble and suddenly there's a lot of pressure on Mercedes to deliver the car and take on nasty Red Bull.
Exactly. They're having their wobble on a global social media stage, which is a particular focus in certain geographies.I reckon that the grief that Mercedes are getting for their situation, is proper amateur stuff compared to what Ferrari are experiencing through the Italian media and fanbase.
Being objective on these two teams ....... Neither has a disastrously slow car at the end of the day. They are simply too far adrift of Red Bull to be acceptable against their aspirations.
Piginapoke said:
Blib said:
Piginapoke said:
Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.
Ferrari spent as much as Mercedes. RB similar. Renault weren't exactly digging down behind the sofa cushions either.Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 15th March 08:34
mat205125 said:
HustleRussell said:
Piginapoke said:
Blib said:
Piginapoke said:
Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.
Ferrari spent as much as Mercedes. RB similar. Renault weren't exactly digging down behind the sofa cushions either.Mercedes have had the resources and budget to tackle any issues they've encountered in the last decade, with sheer sledgehammer force, in terms of their spending.
They'd have nailed the porpoising and had a winning car after a couple of races last year, if they'd retained their previous levels of workforce, production and spending. They are yet to be able to demonstrate the ability to have the same kind of agility and speed of resolution finding, within the new ceiling that they've had imposed.
mattdavies said:
mat205125 said:
HustleRussell said:
maz8062 said:
The cost cap is not closing up the field.
What is closing up the field then? It's almost certainly the closest its ever been?
I watched a race from the good old days of 1993 on a DVD the other day.
Absolutely love the era, the cars, the names and the action, but only two cars finished on the lead lap. They were separated by over a minute, and by the time your got down to 5th place, the car was 3 laps behind!
The new regs are working, and the racing is better than its been for many years / eras
The teams have started to close the gap to each other and advantage at the top had slowed as they reached the top of the curve
2021 Bahrain Q1 field spread was 2.8 seconds.
Even if you elect to exclude the two Haas cars on the basis that they had a rubbish car and two rookies the spread from 1st to 18th was 1.6 seconds.
2021 Q1 18th place to eventual pole delta was 3.1 seconds
2023 Bahrain Q1 field spread was 1.2 seconds (25% reduction compared to 2021 top 18)
2023 Q1 20th place to eventual pole delta was 2.5 seconds (19% reduction compared to 2021 top 18)
In both the 2021 and 2023 races, the lead driver lapped up to and including 12th place- but the 2021 race was interrupted by a full safety car while the 2023 race had only a virtual.
Interesting to note that 18th place qualifier representing the 'back of the grid' for the purpose of this comparison (Schumacher and Mazepin omitted) was one S. Vettel in an Aston Martin!
Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 15th March 14:34
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