Just buy the cheaper one and remap it....
Discussion
not sure if this has been done on here before but it seems to me to be a common misapprehension that when a model of car has 2 near identical engines but with 2 power outputs - e.g. a Citroen Xsara 2.0 HDi came in 90 & 110 hp versions - some people erroneously believe this is nothing but a remap on the part of the more powerful engine. In that example I think from memory that the injectors are different in some way. My question is, is there actually an example out there where that power gain has been done by a remap rather than physical changes to engine hardware? (and the corollary of this would be that you should be able to remap both engines to pretty much the exact same level at a garage with a rolling road)
For example, the Audi A4 B8 2.0 TDi came in a range of flavours; i.e. 120, 136, 143 & 170. I don't know what the difference between all of the power outputs is but I'm confident it's not just a remap. I'm fairly sure the 170 has the exact same turbo but very beeefy injectors and maybe a couple of other things like a bigger airbox but I don't even have a guess to the difference between the first 3 power outputs.
The same goes for things like the Ford Transit Mk7 with incrementally slightly differing outputs of 2.2 TDCi engines. The new 1.0 ecoboost engines with 100 or 125 hp would be another example.
For example, the Audi A4 B8 2.0 TDi came in a range of flavours; i.e. 120, 136, 143 & 170. I don't know what the difference between all of the power outputs is but I'm confident it's not just a remap. I'm fairly sure the 170 has the exact same turbo but very beeefy injectors and maybe a couple of other things like a bigger airbox but I don't even have a guess to the difference between the first 3 power outputs.
The same goes for things like the Ford Transit Mk7 with incrementally slightly differing outputs of 2.2 TDCi engines. The new 1.0 ecoboost engines with 100 or 125 hp would be another example.
meehaja said:
Bw 2.0tdi 140 engine has different injectors and turbo from the 170. However, the 170 injectors had problems and the 140 turbos are weak. Some people say a 140 remapped is a better drive than the 170 but I've only driven a remapped 140 so can't comment.
pumpe duse or commonrail?ETA: there's also a few different versions of the 2.0 TDi anyway depending on which generation you're talking about. For example there's 8v and 16v versions, some with DPF's and some without, etc.
Edited by ModernAndy on Sunday 13th March 17:05
I think this thread is beginning to confirm my suspicions. It seems like there have been a few examples given already where it looks like it's just a remap but there are slightly different components including exhausts (although pedantically that does make the engine the same I suppose if all that is different is the exhaust).
Steve H said:
ModernAndy said:
CaptainMorgan said:
One of the recent transporters comes in 84hp and higher power versions, no hardware differences resulting in huge map gains.
Do you mean they all remap to the same power output?The Spruce goose said:
BMW 114 f20/21
Remap from 102bhp to 200- 220bhp. wow
I guess same engine as 116 and 118.
Sounds do-able with a 1.6 turbo. Seems unlikely that BMW would leave the door open for people to buy a 1 series and remap it with the power of a much more expensive 1 series. Surely there must be some difference other than the map.Remap from 102bhp to 200- 220bhp. wow
I guess same engine as 116 and 118.
NelsonP said:
Audi S4 B8 - 333 bhp, 325 lb ft
Audi A4 TFSI quattro with stage 3 Revo remap - 320-350bhp, 338-368 lb ft. But it needs a new intercooler, exhaust, turbo and clutch as well. And then there is the ever present excessive oil consumption threat.
>> If you want more performance, I'd say just buy the S4 in the first place.
PS Interested to know whether there is much difference in the drivetrain betwen B8 S4 and A4? Gearbox, 4WD system, diffs?
I'm going on memory here but the S4 is the only B8 with a 3.0 petrol (and a supercharger for that matter), the gearbox is different in S-Tronic spec at least, the S4 has an optional sport diff (which really makes the car what it is and I wouldn't have one without this), the quattro system is still a torque sensing diff type but I'd imagine there are a couple of teeny little differences in how it's set up, the suspension is unique to the S4 I think. Revo can tune one to essentially match the B8.5 RS4 just by mapping it.Audi A4 TFSI quattro with stage 3 Revo remap - 320-350bhp, 338-368 lb ft. But it needs a new intercooler, exhaust, turbo and clutch as well. And then there is the ever present excessive oil consumption threat.
>> If you want more performance, I'd say just buy the S4 in the first place.
PS Interested to know whether there is much difference in the drivetrain betwen B8 S4 and A4? Gearbox, 4WD system, diffs?
andburg said:
csd19 said:
dme123 said:
I believe the 5 cylinder Volvo D3/D4 engines were just software differences. The Polestar map for both engines take them to exactly the same outputs.
Another pair of Volvo engines are the Euro IV compliant 2.4D(163bhp) & the D5(185bhp), this was purely a software difference between these two.
The 163bhp 2.4d has a smaller clutch and flywheel than the 185 or so I was led to believe on the Volvo forums a few years back.
Getting back to the original point which I might now rephrase slightly; is there actually any car you can buy where there's a more powerful version of the exact same engine and the ONLY difference between the 2 cars is a remap. That now includes exhausts, clutches, gearboxes, materials the components are made of, size of turbo actuators, etc.
There's been so many examples given but it seems they've all been unpicked in some way.
Jakg said:
Again - identical everything, same ECU, different mapping. Only difference was £600 when new.
The story is that when the Rover 75 was developed, Rover was owned by BMW. They used the same engine (M47) as used elsewhere in the range (e.g. E46 320d), but with some components downrated (small turbo, cast not forged crank), and deliberately low power output (114HP vs the 147 ish in the BMW) to make sure they wouldn't be a direct comparison. When BMW left Rover, the engineers had free reign over the software and realised they could easily get 131HP out of the unit with nothing more than a software map, and so initially offered both models for sale, with the upgrade available at dealers as a retrofit with a warranty - eventually the lower power model was dropped altogether.
The gearbox (manual or auto), brakes, suspension etc was common between both power variants, whether comparing between Rover 75's or MG ZT's, although obviously each model had different suspension to each other (e.g. 75 vs ZT)
Well that sounds like the winner unless somebody can come along and say they were different in some way. What you're saying makes sense I suppose.The story is that when the Rover 75 was developed, Rover was owned by BMW. They used the same engine (M47) as used elsewhere in the range (e.g. E46 320d), but with some components downrated (small turbo, cast not forged crank), and deliberately low power output (114HP vs the 147 ish in the BMW) to make sure they wouldn't be a direct comparison. When BMW left Rover, the engineers had free reign over the software and realised they could easily get 131HP out of the unit with nothing more than a software map, and so initially offered both models for sale, with the upgrade available at dealers as a retrofit with a warranty - eventually the lower power model was dropped altogether.
The gearbox (manual or auto), brakes, suspension etc was common between both power variants, whether comparing between Rover 75's or MG ZT's, although obviously each model had different suspension to each other (e.g. 75 vs ZT)
Edited by Jakg on Tuesday 15th March 21:26
Jakg said:
TheAngryDog said:
Mg Zt / rover 75 cdti 114 was identical to the 131 engine apart from a remap.
A lot of "remappers" don't realise this.
A lot of "remappers" don't realise this.
ModernAndy said:
I had a look and they seem to remap to the same bhp but different torque. Is the gearbox, etc. perhaps different?
Gearbox etc is all the same - the fact that remappers quote different figures on the 114 / 131 version says more about the remapper than the car!Jakg said:
ModernAndy said:
Possibly but I can't find a remapper stating they tune both models to the same stats.
There aren't really any "respected" companies who offer remaps for these cars (e.g. as you might find with DMS and BMW or similar)You'll just have to trust me - it's difficult to prove a negative (that there are no differences)!
csd19 said:
ModernAndy said:
andburg said:
csd19 said:
dme123 said:
I believe the 5 cylinder Volvo D3/D4 engines were just software differences. The Polestar map for both engines take them to exactly the same outputs.
Another pair of Volvo engines are the Euro IV compliant 2.4D(163bhp) & the D5(185bhp), this was purely a software difference between these two.
The 163bhp 2.4d has a smaller clutch and flywheel than the 185 or so I was led to believe on the Volvo forums a few years back.
Getting back to the original point which I might now rephrase slightly; is there actually any car you can buy where there's a more powerful version of the exact same engine and the ONLY difference between the 2 cars is a remap. That now includes exhausts, clutches, gearboxes, materials the components are made of, size of turbo actuators, etc.
There's been so many examples given but it seems they've all been unpicked in some way.
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