Speed awareness course....interesting but.....

[King Herald]

So I got busted after 40 clean years, 37 in a 30, totally my fault, missed the speed sign. I elected to do the course, I mean, who wouldn't???

Learned some stuff I never knew, but towards the end the guy asked for "the benefits of speeding, why would you do it?"

I spoke out and said 'for fun, enjoyment, because some people like driving fast'.

He wouldn't accept that, struck it off the list?! All he would allow on his 'list' was "to get there quicker".

I find that a little narrow minded, a little obtuse, naive even, on a course that is supposed to be all about teaching people why they should not speed.

Or did I simply misunderstand the question/whole point of this course?

[King Herald]

cuprabob said:

Gary29 said:

I'd just sit there quietly and try to get out of there as quickly as possible.

Sounds like a good plan

Nothing worse than having a smart @rse who likes the sound of their own voice making it longer for everyone else.

Not sure if that is in jest, or a predictably new age PH response to my post?

The guy was asking seriously why people break the speed limit, I responsed with what I consider a bloody good reason why. People DO drive faster than they are supposed because they LIKE driving fast.

He refused to acknowledge that, and rejected it as a reason people do it. I'm pretty sure there are a LOT of drivers or riders on PH who like to press on over and above the speed limit whenever they think it is safe to do, and think they won't get caught, and it is not just because they are in a hurry to get where they are going.

The course was to finish in four hours, no longer, he pointed that out at the start, so nothing that was said was going to change that.

[King Herald]

RobM77 said:

his is certainly a major effect for me. Nevertheless, I figure that because of the high mileage I drive I can't afford to take chances, so I hardly ever break the speed limit. The most I'll ever do is a bit over on the motorway if I'm running late; I'll certainly never breach a 30 or 40mph limit, as that's where the most cameras tend to be. It's nice to never worry about being caught, but I do get incredibly bored at times.

One interesting snippet he demonstrated was that if you were ten minutes late, for example, and wanted to make it up by doing 80 instead of 70mph on the motorway, you'd have to drive 100 miles without dropping your speed to catch up that ten minutes. I'd never really thought that out before.

I rarely breach a speed limit in a town or built up area myself, but I got caught when I lost track of what the limit was while cruising through some town one afternoon. Riding a bike for 40 years, in various countries, I tend to gravitate towards whatever speed feels safe if a speed sign isn't very evident. A van up my rear end made me think I was in a 40, not a 30, and lack of concentration on my part lead to me getting busted. Guilty, no excuses.

On my one bike, 1200 Bandit, it can be a bit awkward keeping down to 30 as the motor is a bit lumpy below 2000 rpm..... speed tends to creep up without noticing, if I'm not continually nodding up and down twixt speedo and road. That's not an excuse, just I need to pay close attention.

Edited by King Herald on Thursday 27th July 16:16

[King Herald]

alorotom said:

A chap on my speed awareness course a few years ago started arguing with the AA chap delivering the course about stopping distances and speed and that his 911T with carbon ceramics could o faster and stop quicker than something 'boggo'

He was right but it was received like a cold cup of sick ... and also came across like he was just trying to brag about his wheels in a Considerably Richer then Yow manner

The guy 'proved' that reaction and stoping distances haven't changed in 60 years. He said they still teach the same statistics now as they did then. Tyres, suspension and brakes may have improved, but cars are approx 80% heavier than they were 60 years ago.

I didn't bother to disagree with that as I wanted to pass the course.....

[King Herald]

KTF said:

King Herald said:

37 in a 30

"the benefits of speeding, why would you do it?"

I spoke out and said 'for fun, enjoyment, because some people like driving fast'.

30 limits tend to be in a built up area. Using your own reasoning, what fun and enjoyment did you get out of 37 in a 30?

And he said exactly the same thing, "so driving at 37mph and getting a ticket was fun?"

He asked for reasons WHY some people speed. I gave him a reason.

Was I wrong? Seriously???

Does anybody here drive faster than they legally should because they actually enjoy driving fast, or do they all exceed the speed limit simply because they are in a hurry to get somewhere? The latter was the only reason he would accept.

As I have stated, I got caught because of an error, not because 37 mph in a 30 is some cheap thrill.

[King Herald]

bobtail4x4 said:

they can fail you if you dont join in

He asked what people thought they needed to do to pass the course, and participating was one of the things on the list, as well as being on time, being sober, and staying for the whole four hours

His closing line was "all those who have passed the course will receive mail from the county council telling them....blah blah" which sort of indicated there could be failures.....

I know some people sat still and didn't say a single word for the whole four hours.

[King Herald]

Gary29 said:

'

My point was it would be pointless trying to argue the case for speeding to a bloke who's job it is to try and limit everyone's speed, it's like arguing with a woman, you'll never win.

Oh, defiantly.

One of our number did point out (during tea break, very quietly) that actually teaching that course must be mind numbingly boring, and frustrating. We never actually had any pro-speeding advocates in our class, but the guy got rather defensive whenever anybody even touched on the idea the speed cameras might be simply revenue making machines. He obviously firmly believes the message he is putting across.

I wouldn't say I exactly enjoyed doing the course, but it was definitely interesting in places. And I can now tell what speed limits are even if there are no obvious signs. I think.....

[King Herald]

Moonhawk said:

I would agree that it's a very narrow minded view to take - people speed for all sorts of reasons. Because they find driving fast fun and enjoyable is as valid a reason why somebody might want to speed as "trying to get there quicker" is.

Plus, why would they build small family cars that do 130 mph, or big fast cars and bikes that do well over 150 mph, if driving fast was not part of the whole driving experience?

I would wager that a huge percentage of people drive over the limit, whenever they don't think they will get caught. And it isn't because they are in a hurry.

[King Herald]

dcb said:

It's the promotion of obvious fallacies like this that really get my goat.

The idea that the stopping distances are fixed for decades, however much cars
and driver quality change is simply shoddy Government.

UK Gov should be out there measuring real stopping distances every ten years and setting
new more realistic numbers for new drivers to learn.

The current method of just repeating stale information has nothing to do with a rational measured
evidence based approach.

It is simply pointless arguing though, comparing an 800kg Ford Pop, with drum brakes and crossplies, to a 1200kg 4 wheel disc brakes Golf, with 8" wide modern rubber.........

He also stated that ABS is not a braking aid, but a steering aid, to let drivers steer their way out of trouble in an emergency. They did push that on TV for a while, but the ability to stop without locking up all four on a wet motorway has little to do with steering, so it is a braking aid in my opinion. Not many people try to steer their out of braking trouble, in my limited experience.

[King Herald]

KTF said:

Do you think people who do more than 70 on the motorways are doing so because they enjoy driving fast or is it because they are trying to get to wherever they are going quicker?

What about people who drive at 40 through residential areas? Is that also fun or are they just wanting to get to wherever they are going quicker?

Not even worthy of an answer!!!

[King Herald]

silverfoxcc said:

IE we were told for every SLOW written on the road there has been a fatality, AND there are only 5 compulsory erected road signs, ( i forget which) and every other one has been put there because of an accident... I wanted to ask how can that be on roads that have been newly built and have a myriad of junction/hazard etc sign even before one vehicle has been along it.....FFS keep quite and just point out this bks to the organisers

Apparently, the big black and white chevrons put on bends on roads, there is one for every fatality that has occurred on that corner. That is why some bends only have one, or two etc.

Apparently, you can only have a speed camera where there has been a fatality.

Apparently they can only put a speed van where there has been a fatality, or where there has been a lot of campaigning by residents about dangerous speeding.

Speed vans can't just go out and throw up a speed trap at random.

Www.crashmap.co.uk is supposedly the place to get all information about every crash that has happened.

[King Herald]

C. Grimsley said:

. Both people who ran the course in my group were retired police officers.

The stare was deadly.

Carl

Of course we had to ask our guys if they had any points on their licenses. The one guy told me he would lose his job if he got three points, and have to pick a new career if he got six.

Not sure exactly what his career was, we never got round to that.

[King Herald]

£100 for the fine, and 3 points, or, £80 for the course.

Yes, indeed, give them no more money.

[King Herald]

mac96 said:

Perhaps he wanted you to say 'to get there quicker' because he had a preset answer to that, to show that the extra speed had little affect on journey time.
Whereas 'because it is more fun' is a subjective thing which he cannot dispute.

That was where he was heading, to prove/hammer home that going faster did not really get you there quicker.

I bet he has taught that same class hundreds of times, must be frustrating when the pupils don't play the game right.......

[King Herald]

rxe said:

For me, its nothing to do with lateness and all about fun. I'll cheerfully blast down a motorway and read a book at my destination rather than arrive exactly on time.

I'm absolutely with the OP. There's little utility or science that can be applied here, its just more interesting.

Exactly my view. I find it hard to believe that anybody on PH cannot understand this. Maybe they don't do it themselves, but denying it totally?

Either they use their car merely as a form of transport, or as a fashion accessory, but not being able to accept that driving fast is enjoyable for many people, well, what can we say.....

I assume the instructor had a specific agenda to teach, and people saying they LIKE driving fast as a reason/excuse for their crime is not within his scope of brainwashing.

[King Herald]

paulguitar said:

. I feel I am driving very much more safely when making reasonable progress along a road than when in the plodding snake of cars, with most or all of the drivers close to lapsing into a coma rather than being particularly aware of what is around them.


The government, however, goes with ‘Speed Kills’ rather than trying to educate. We all get on an Airbus A380, or a 787, which should be MASSIVELY dangerous on that basis…

I start to feel sleepy if I wind along fast roads at a mere 40 or 50 speed limit, following a string of cars all doing 5 below that limit..... it is mesmerising, tedious, hypnotic almost.

I was actually expecting to be assaulted with the "SPEED KILLS" brainwashing as soon as I walked into the course classroom, but it never really happened. Well, it did, but far more subtly.

[King Herald]

We had several people bustling into the room minutes before the cut off time, 8:30 DESPITE the attendance letter stating people must be there 15 minutes before the start time.

They were all women, and I assume they all drove. No guesses how many speed limits were broken that day....

I drive up to Leeds today, to a bike show, motorway, and I obeyed the letter of the law all the way, 70 in a 70, 50 through the roadworks that covered at least 50 % of the journey.

Never have I been so bored and sleepy on a trip like that. ....... windows open, closed, open, air con on, off, on, radio loud, radio off, singing to myself loudly to maintain some sense of being there.

I rarely drive above 85 normally, but when carving through the dawdling dross on the motorway even that little extra speed gives a sense of urgency to ones roadmanship and keeps the mind focused a lot better.

(A little over dramatic actually, as I only drive a Mundano 1.6 diesel, but never let the facts get in the way of a good story, eh?)

[King Herald]

TeeRev said:

I've been looking at this thread and reading the various points of view being expressed with interest as I am doing my Speed Awareness Course on Tuesday.
I shall report back here with details of my offence and my thoughts on the experience afterwards.

I assume all the courses will be much of a muchness, so towards the end, when the instructor is building up for the grand finale of 'And so, children, now you can clearly see there is absolutely NO reason for you to ever speed again', see if you can a get him to accept that many people do indeed drive above the speed limit simply because they LIKE driving fast.

You could mention that race drivers/riders don't race at crazy speeds simply for the trophy, or the pay check.

Be forewarned, he will probably ask you if you had fun the day you were caught for speeding, or some similarly condescending, supercilious bks, exactly as we have also heard from a couple of our PH members.

[King Herald]

Today I went out on my bike and after a cruise around the country at the speed limit, I eventually re-visited the scene of the crime, A522 Lower Tean Road, near Cheadle.

I followed the same route I had before, and found the road is a built up area, single lane road, houses both sides, street lights every 100 metres or so, so obviously going to be a 30. My bad, I should have known, and in the future I WILL be able to ascertain this without even seeing speed signs.

But it is a FORTY zone. Two miles of the above road is clearly signed as a 40 mph zone, with repeaters every so many yards.

Until 300 yards before where I achieved fame and fortune, then there are two 30 signs, one each side of the road. Well, I assume there is one on the left because it is covered in leaves and branches. The one on the right is clear, IF you are looking for if, and IF you happen to be looking up at just that moment as you pass it!

IF, as the course instructor impressed upon us so diligently, they are all about safety, saving lives etc. and not revenue, they would make bloody sure these signs were glaringly obvious to anybody passing along that road.

I should have taken some photos while I was there today, just for the hell of it.

Your average motorist might well see the signs, but you'd only have to be looking in your mirror, or down at your speed for a second, or checking out the numerous potential hazards along the road side, and the road surface, and it would be so easy to miss that sign, seeing as they have already established repeatedly that it is a 40 mph built up urban road with street lights....

[King Herald]

vonhosen said:

Not if you are using your eyes properly. Your vision should be scanning from your horizon to you (inc laterally) & behind on a repeat cycle. So your vision scans should cover the location of the sign multiple times before you get to it, rather than just once. You could possibly miss the detail on one of those scans but not in the three, four or more visits you should be doing.

Multiple times huh? How long does your scan take?

I usually do what I call my 'circle of observation' on my bike: road ahead, road near, mirrors, instruments etc.

At 40mph you are covering 60 feet per second, and in an urban environment with trees hanging out, shops, other signs, buildings etc, there is EVERY chance of missing one sign on the other side of the road. Unless you are specifically looking for it.

But there are also a hundred other things we are looking for, not just speed signs. I pride myself in 40 years of motorcycling in much of Europe, and also in India, Thailand, Philippines, without a serious shunt of any sort. I would like to think I have pretty good road observation skills.

And like I said, if they were REALLY that bothered about speeders, why don't they clear the trees from the 30 sign on that one side of the road?

I shall go take photos tomorrow, and see just how obscured or obvious it is with a closer look.

Eta: and to be honest, I am a bit surprised that stretch actually IS a 40, though obviously you don't have to travel at that speed.

Edited by King Herald on Sunday 30th July 21:40