Updated: The Ineos Grenadier
Ineos is moving forward with its Defender clone. First step? German expertise...
Ineos Automotive has announced that a deal has been reached with German engineering firm MBtech for it to become its official partner in the Projekt Grenadier's development.
You might have heard of MBtech, founded in 1995 as Mercedes-Benz Technologies. Despite the name, the company works with a wide range of clients within the industry, including recently aiding Porsche with the development of the Panamera S E-Hybrid. MBtech will now, "take the lead on overall vehicle development overseeing all components of the upcoming 4x4."
Working to progress the initial design concept through to a fully engineered vehicle, 200 engineers from the German outfit will be responsible for producing the initial test mules and prototypes later this year, aiming to ensure that the Grenadier is a "truly rugged, reliable and uncompromising 4x4."
Henry Kohlstruck, Managing Director of MBtech, said: "All of us at MBtech are looking forward to getting involved in this once-in-a-generation opportunity to develop a truly uncompromising off-road vehicle. The next six months are where the real work will begin as we take all the design variables into account. Our key competencies lie in developing SUVs and 4x4s, and we are very excited to be given such freedom and responsibility to help complete a fantastic automotive project."
The revival of a quintessentially British car, backed by German engineering - where have we heard that before? Still, if it leads to the creation of a vehicle with the charm and style of the Land Rover, but the build quality and reliability of, well, anything else, it can only be something to look forward to!
By the time the final Land Rover Defender reached the end of the Solihull production line last year, its prolonged demise had been better documented than the fall of most empires. The model though had well-earned the theatrical spectacle of a factory floor strewn with photographers: that's what 67 years of heritage, engineering legitimacy and buyer adulation gets you.
The future though remains intriguingly uncertain. Land Rover will unequivocally replace the Defender - but the precise shape and nature of that car is a subject that rolls ruminatively around Gaydon like an imperial mint in the mouth of a distracted undergrad. Certainly it will not be exactly - or perhaps even vaguely - like the car it supersedes. And in that respect there are those who unhesitatingly feel like they could do better.
Jim Ratcliffe is apparently primary among them. Being founder and CEO of a firm like Ineos (one of the largest chemical manufacturers in the world) presumably endows you with a certain amount of confidence, and Ratcliffe - along with a pathfinder platoon made up of engineers and auto-industry bods - has thrown his exploratory hat into the what-comes-next ring.
If that sounds like lunacy then it's worth relating that Ineos Automotive not only has some financial clout courtesy of its parent company, but that the product they're talking about is a decidedly niche-market prospect for (one would suspect) the type of buyer currently happy to pay upwards of £70k for a nearly new example of the last Defender - or more for a Twisted or Kahn Design version.
The Ineos Grenadier - a temporary name borrowed from pub where the idea was reputedly born - will not, of course, actually be a Defender (JLR takes a famously litigious view of anyone silly enough to colour inside its trademarked lines) but will instead borrow liberally from its idiosyncratic list of features: an aluminium body, steel coil suspension, four-wheel drive, very generous axle articulation and the separate ladder frame chassis made unfashionable by the industry's preoccupation with unitary construction.
Handily - and not unlike the original thinking behind the Defender and its ancestors - that ought to make the Grenadier not only technically robust, but also comparatively affordable to construct (when placed next to the financial hurdle of, say, mass-producing a McLaren). However, that hardly moderates the challenge of conceiving, designing, fabricating, developing, outfitting, testing and perfecting a new car from the ground-up with nothing to work from except a 67-year-old model that you're not allowed to copy.
Still, nowhere is the ground softer for such exploits than the UK. The Defenders enormous popularity notwithstanding, the buying public's affection for cottage-industry-style manufacturers is well established and Ratcliffe's team has made all the right noises: the Grenadier's off-road bias will not be softened for on-road comfort - the idea is obviously for it to be as loud and as granular and as charismatic as the car it seeks to spiritually replace. As statements of early intent go, it's an encouraging one.
You can find out more at Ineos's new website - or cut straight to the chase below.
Lots of pictures and footage of shoguns, g wagons and of course defenders, but the car in question remains an idea?
Countless other wealthy men have had similar ideas, but actually gone as far as a prototype before announcing it. This is a similarly bad concept as the Bugatti beaters built in a industrial unit in Bedford or Bradford.
The question is; "Drunk rich bloke thinks he might like to make a car" is that a story?
I'd never heard of them, but spotted this in the Disneyland Paris carpark in the summer. I thought it was a Chinese copy but it turns out a Spanish firm took on the Defender, fixed its problems, upgraded parts and sold them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santana_Motor
The thing that puzzles me (& cant find the info. anywhere?) is why doesn't (or can't?!) he just buy the original tooling and pressings direct from Land Rover (or under license), like Caterham did with Lotus and BMH did for the MGB?
I thought he was trying to do buy the tooling & pressings originally?
Probably best to start the project by spending a couple of years eulogising the original, convincing everyone that you want to build a land rover so when you build your Ineos Grenadier that's how they'll think of it.
I'm aware the Land Rover TM isn't for sale, but at least Les actually bought TVR...
From a business point of view it's easy to see where the money is.
A good point from an earlier poster. This is a rich persons toy. As with the David Brown mini, it's about as far away from the original concept as you can get.
Want to spend £90k on something that looks all macho and tough but actually just want to tool around London or drive up a leafy driveway in quiet air-conditioned luxury. OR
Actually want to take something and use it off road or around a farm, in which case you don't want to spend £90k, you will just buy something utilitarian and Japanese (ie. reliable). OR
Just want a real Defender for nostalgic reasons, in which case you would just buy a second hand Defender.
If there was still a large enough market for the original Defender, JLR would still be making them. They are excellent at leaning on their heritage.
It's a lovely thought and I hate to sound like a pessimist, but I can't see a market for this either.
You can already buy a credible Land Rover Defender alternative called the Foers Ibex, fantastic off-road and a proven design - have you ever seen one?
People pay £70k+ or whatever for a Land Rover, because it's a Land Rover and has that credibility - I can't see many paying anything like that for a vehicle without the LR badge.
It'll never happen.
I thought he was trying to do buy the tooling & pressings originally?
Also agree with comments of why £70k is mentioned in the article, anything I've seen/ read/ heard has always said it would be an affordable practical car. Definitely not aimed at the 'Chelsea tractor' segment of the market, he wanted a vehicle practical like a defender/ land cruiser.
it mentioned in an article the other day that he has been approached with a few viable sites/ plants for manufacture. having previously worked at one of the ineos sites- he's a very ruthless business man, that's in projects to make money! he must think there is a market there, he definitely has a few of his closest/senior team working on this project. Once the cash from all his fracking licenses start rolling in, he needs something to spend the cash on, he already has the private jet, the massive yacht, the ski hotel in the alps..... just needs his own car company now.......
What I suspect will happen (if anything) is a £100k underdeveloped pastiche of a defender which no-one in their right mind would buy over say a Range Rover for the same money. Kind of like an LM002. Hang on, that would be cool! Do it! Best of luck to them...
I think Land Rover themselves are a crossroads with it. Personally I think they should bite the bullet and build something agricultural that doesn't rely on complex electronics to get it through the rough stuff and doesn't make them a huge profit. They'll get sooo much bad press from the motoring community about "going away from their roots" etc (you could write the average motoring hack's cliche filled report now) that people will be swayed by it and it might damage the brand's overall sales. If they do go this route (I hope they do) then we're likely to see something more truck like, think Navara, Amrok etc. Isuzu is doing a good trade with farmers that used to buy Defenders for commercial purpose. There is a market here to at both ends of the spectrum as Mercedes is now looking to bring us a expensive luxury truck, so I would imagine Land Rover would go this path with commercial all the way through to XS or HSE trim level options. I just hope they can make a SWB one from the platform without the load bed.
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