Timing chain disaster
Discussion
So I know nothing about cars other than the very basics. I have joined this forum for some advise.
I was driving my 64 plate Mini countryman on the motorway and the engine just died on me. It was pretty scary ! I had to get towed to a garage that night. The mechanic there said my timming chain had broke off and the engine is a mess. He said 2 main reasons this happens are empty oil tank or a fault.
He said my oil tank was registering at min level on the dip stick and in his option didn't think that would cause this to happen. He saod be was very experienced and has seen empty oil tabks with cars running on them even though its bad...He works at my local small garage and couldn't do the job as it was too big a job for him at present time. Evan Halshaw then towed it to their garage (We bought the car from Evans Halshaw 10 months ago ) We had taken out an extended warranty with them. This repair is now covered under than unless they can prove it was our fault. They are trying to say the oil level is slightly below the min level and that's why this has happened? The 1st mechanic is still standing his ground and saying it shouldn't have happened.
Evans Halshaw are now wanting to send it to mini for them to look at it and authorise a repair. We have been told to orgabjse and oay for the tow truck which I feel is wrong. How likely is it they will agree with Evan Halshaw that the oil tank at minimal level caused this to happen? What would be the cost to replace a whole engine - diesel 2L cooper SD. I paid 9k for it and I've still 6k on my loan so not sure where to go from here. I've never had this happen before ! Nightmare !
Thanks in advance for any help
I was driving my 64 plate Mini countryman on the motorway and the engine just died on me. It was pretty scary ! I had to get towed to a garage that night. The mechanic there said my timming chain had broke off and the engine is a mess. He said 2 main reasons this happens are empty oil tank or a fault.
He said my oil tank was registering at min level on the dip stick and in his option didn't think that would cause this to happen. He saod be was very experienced and has seen empty oil tabks with cars running on them even though its bad...He works at my local small garage and couldn't do the job as it was too big a job for him at present time. Evan Halshaw then towed it to their garage (We bought the car from Evans Halshaw 10 months ago ) We had taken out an extended warranty with them. This repair is now covered under than unless they can prove it was our fault. They are trying to say the oil level is slightly below the min level and that's why this has happened? The 1st mechanic is still standing his ground and saying it shouldn't have happened.
Evans Halshaw are now wanting to send it to mini for them to look at it and authorise a repair. We have been told to orgabjse and oay for the tow truck which I feel is wrong. How likely is it they will agree with Evan Halshaw that the oil tank at minimal level caused this to happen? What would be the cost to replace a whole engine - diesel 2L cooper SD. I paid 9k for it and I've still 6k on my loan so not sure where to go from here. I've never had this happen before ! Nightmare !
Thanks in advance for any help
Could an oil tank at that level be the actual cause ? There was a burning smell just before it happened. I've never owned a mini before but I had been topping up the oil every 2 months sometimes more sometimes less
As I said there was no low oil warning light on my dash
I just feel mini and Evans Halshaw will try to get out of the repair and I will be left with no car . What's the point of taking out a £400 extended warranty if it doesn't cover faults or mechanical failures ?
Would a new engine be more than the car is worth ?I think it's worth about 8.5k at present time .
It has been serviced by mini every year and passed it MOT 2 weeks ago with flying colours. I do drive 46 miles x 5 days in it
As I said there was no low oil warning light on my dash
I just feel mini and Evans Halshaw will try to get out of the repair and I will be left with no car . What's the point of taking out a £400 extended warranty if it doesn't cover faults or mechanical failures ?
Would a new engine be more than the car is worth ?I think it's worth about 8.5k at present time .
It has been serviced by mini every year and passed it MOT 2 weeks ago with flying colours. I do drive 46 miles x 5 days in it
fellows4 said:
Aside from financing a used car worth £9k, this is pretty unfortunate OP.
Given that you've only paid down £3k of your £9k loan you can't have had the car that long. I presume Evans Halshaw wouldn't have sold you a car with oil near min, would they?
I took out a personal loan to buy the car via the bank so not with them. I only got the car 10 months ago. It's been serviced by BMW at my local Mini garage every year. It was 3 years old when I bought it. Given that you've only paid down £3k of your £9k loan you can't have had the car that long. I presume Evans Halshaw wouldn't have sold you a car with oil near min, would they?
Deep Thought said:
Too late now, but i'd have stuck a litre of oil in to it before they picked it up....
BMW engines are known for timing chain failure particularly that 2.0TD. A quick google wil2l come up with loads of similar experiences to demonstrate its a fault.
Also, the finance company own the car - you need to loop them in to put pressure on the dealer / warranty company.
Also, does the car have a full BMWSH? They may well contribute.
Also, you have your mechanics word - and no doubt a supporting letter could be provided - confirming that it was at the min level but not below it.
The 1st mechanic that saw it told me about the 're calls for the faults but it all seems to be 2007-2010 plates that had the fault? BMW engines are known for timing chain failure particularly that 2.0TD. A quick google wil2l come up with loads of similar experiences to demonstrate its a fault.
Also, the finance company own the car - you need to loop them in to put pressure on the dealer / warranty company.
Also, does the car have a full BMWSH? They may well contribute.
Also, you have your mechanics word - and no doubt a supporting letter could be provided - confirming that it was at the min level but not below it.
Edited by Deep Thought on Sunday 28th October 16:06
I couldn't put oil in it as I was at work and they came and towed it that very day from the 1st garage.
I took out a personal loan with the bank so I doubt they would care other than I need to keep paying the loan wether I have the car or not now
It has been serviced by BMW every year and well looked after. It just had its MOT and was booked in for a service for (ironically ) the morning after it broke down so obviously never went.
200Plus Club said:
I don't think it's connected to a timing chain failure but tbh oil level maintenance is something people don't check and they really should, its so basic.
Apparently it is. If the oil tank is empty then the timing chain jumps off so I've been told 10 times by EH. Evans Halshaw are trying to say that a minimal level is just the same as empty . They are very sharp on the phone and very rude. The 1st mechanic at my local garage said there's no way it would cause it unless it was empty and even then he said he's seen cars run on empty . It was just at his garage about 2 weeks ago for an MOT ! Well I am not backing down unless they can properly evidence there findings.
They are now asking me to tow it to Mini and they are hoping that mini will agree with them and then they said they won't be fixing it under the warranty if they do agree with their opinion.
I just feel they will win no matter what.
I'm just hoping surely mini/bmw wouldn't say that would happen otherwise there not saying much about the quality for their cars.
They are now asking me to tow it to Mini and they are hoping that mini will agree with them and then they said they won't be fixing it under the warranty if they do agree with their opinion.
I just feel they will win no matter what.
I'm just hoping surely mini/bmw wouldn't say that would happen otherwise there not saying much about the quality for their cars.
Yeah the 1st mechanic that saw it said the same thing . He said 100% it was some sort of fault. EH tried to say the oil tank was empty when they 1st spoke to me. Then the mechanic called EH and they then back tracked to saying the oil level was just 'slightly below 'the minimum level and that's caused the timing chain to jump off. I argued back to say it wasn't below the min level and that woukdnt cause that to happen. They are just trying to get out of the repair which makes it difficult for me as I know nothing about cars and they do.
Ninja59 said:
It will have an N47 BMW engine which is very common to have issues regarding timing chain wear and eventually snapping. How a mechanic has never heard of the N47 issues is beyond me.
Has it had a whirring, whooshing or "ticking" noises before snapping that you have noticed recently?
Chances are (I am not 100% certain if the timing is chain significantly for mini) that the top chain has failed over the other chains, although it might be other parts of the timing chain system where the tensioner has run out of travel, the timing chain guides get chewed and break apart.
In regards to oil levels they are essential to maintaining lubrication as the system has an oil sprayer, so I do think having low oil whether you like it or not if it is below min then it is "low", I would get that "fact" checked though. BUT equally the issues in regards to the N47 timing chains are so common that I think you might be met with a halfway house.
What mileage is on the car?
milage it's done 56k miles its an ex mobility car and it's a 64 plate . I heard the engine a bit louder at times onnthe journey home before It happened but wasn't sure if I was imagining it Has it had a whirring, whooshing or "ticking" noises before snapping that you have noticed recently?
Chances are (I am not 100% certain if the timing is chain significantly for mini) that the top chain has failed over the other chains, although it might be other parts of the timing chain system where the tensioner has run out of travel, the timing chain guides get chewed and break apart.
In regards to oil levels they are essential to maintaining lubrication as the system has an oil sprayer, so I do think having low oil whether you like it or not if it is below min then it is "low", I would get that "fact" checked though. BUT equally the issues in regards to the N47 timing chains are so common that I think you might be met with a halfway house.
What mileage is on the car?
Edited by Ninja59 on Sunday 28th October 17:02
Well the 1st mechanic said it was at the minimum oil level. EH are saying it's slightly below that level so I don't know who is right.
What would be the cost of a new engine or repair like this sorts damage ? Are we taking 6k?
Chromegrill said:
Oil is often ( but not required to be) checked at MoT which was only two weeks ago. Do you know if it was?
If so, how often should you check oil levels? According to Mini every six weeks isn't often enough if that's your personal maintenane routine and they are accusing you of not checking often enough. Indeed every two weeks isn't enough either. What do they suggest? Daily? Before each time you turn on the engine?
Come to think of it, if it's that critical not to drive with low oil levels why not have a dashboard warning light that comes when the levels get too low?
(Ducks for cover...)
The warning light didn't come on? It was checked 3 weeks prior and topped up at that point. So when should I say I was checking the oil level if they ask? If so, how often should you check oil levels? According to Mini every six weeks isn't often enough if that's your personal maintenane routine and they are accusing you of not checking often enough. Indeed every two weeks isn't enough either. What do they suggest? Daily? Before each time you turn on the engine?
Come to think of it, if it's that critical not to drive with low oil levels why not have a dashboard warning light that comes when the levels get too low?
(Ducks for cover...)
steve-5snwi said:
We had to carry out some warranty work for a customer with an evans halshaw warranty and when you actually got hold of the warranty department they were straight forward and easy to deal with. You would be better off getting the car to a mini specialist and letting them have a look.
Evans Halshaw only cover £35 per hour on the warranty so even if they do cover it you will still have something to pay.
The warranty dept were okay it's the people in branch where the car is at that are being so rude. Evans Halshaw only cover £35 per hour on the warranty so even if they do cover it you will still have something to pay.
We were 100% not told that about the warranty. It was sold to us we can claim as many time up to the value of the car and all repairs are paid for if authorised under the policy? What sort of cost are we looking at with a time chain and the damage caused to the engine? Over 3k? Would it likely be a new engine?
The
steve-5snwi said:
Continually running the oil level low may stretch the chain, has it been rattling at start up ? EH warranty won't ask you that, they won't cover a claim until something is in bits and the cause identified. The EH dealer are the problem at the minute.
Price wise, i guess £3500 for an engine supplied and fitted, then allow another £400 for clutch and flywheel while its in bits.
Wow! so best part of 4k ? So what amount of that would be paid by the warranty? How can mini identify what happened if the engine has had such bad damage ? EH findings are low oil level as you know which is bullsh*t ! Price wise, i guess £3500 for an engine supplied and fitted, then allow another £400 for clutch and flywheel while its in bits.
motco said:
If they are saying that oil at the minimum mark causes the chain to fail then the minimum mark is too low. If it is between the marks (not below MIN nor above MAX) then it is in conformance with the owner's manual. It's an attempted wriggle out of responsibility IMO.
Low oil cannot, in itself, cause any failure. It might lead to the oil degrading early due to excess temperature, but if that occurs then what I said about the MIN mark being too low applies. It's a binary state: oil at normal pressure or no oil pressure because the oil is below the pick-up point. It doesn't work on a sliding scale. Gather data from the public domain about other owner's failures and give it to them as evidence that there is a design flaw. BTW it's a sump, not a tank unless it's dry sumped - unlikely.
Thanks ! Well the 1st mechanic is saying the oil level is at minimum level and EH are saying it's slightly below the min level.. obviously trying to use any excuse to get out of it. I did argue back and say even if it is slightly below surely that wouldn't cause the engine to seize and timming chain to come off? Low oil cannot, in itself, cause any failure. It might lead to the oil degrading early due to excess temperature, but if that occurs then what I said about the MIN mark being too low applies. It's a binary state: oil at normal pressure or no oil pressure because the oil is below the pick-up point. It doesn't work on a sliding scale. Gather data from the public domain about other owner's failures and give it to them as evidence that there is a design flaw. BTW it's a sump, not a tank unless it's dry sumped - unlikely.
I googled and found sruff about the flaw but it all seems to be 2007-2010 plates that have had the timing chain flaw.
Can't thank everyone enough for your responses. I feel a bit more confident in fighting the claim
EH are booking it in with mini. They haven't got back to me but I did speak to mini on the phone and they said they haven't got any space for bookings until 18th November. Would I be paying for mini to look at it or is that ALL included in the extended warranty ?
EH haven't got a courtesy car until 6th Dec so I am now having to get 2 trains a day to work and back . I work as a Nurse and have oncall 24/7 duty in 2 weeks time....total nightmare without a car !
EH haven't got a courtesy car until 6th Dec so I am now having to get 2 trains a day to work and back . I work as a Nurse and have oncall 24/7 duty in 2 weeks time....total nightmare without a car !
MalcolmSmith said:
I don’t know owt about these engines, but:
I assume it’s a wet sump and that’s what you mean by oil tank?
Does it have a dipstick and an oil level gauge or just the latter?
When did you last check it and have you ever topped it up.
Was it at the minimum mark on the dipstick. ( note that an oil pressure warning light means stop and switch off -now- even then may be too late)
As another poster said, your first guy if he know it was a warranty job really should have advised you topped it up a bit before getting it towed.
If they are holding fast, and the car has a dipstick, pay your first guy to write a letter stating that that the car had an adequate oil level, above minimum.
Yeah sorry I have no idea it was called a wet sump? But yeah that. I checked it about 2 maybe 3 weeks ago and topped it up but I didnt put loads in as it was past the min level. I assume it’s a wet sump and that’s what you mean by oil tank?
Does it have a dipstick and an oil level gauge or just the latter?
When did you last check it and have you ever topped it up.
Was it at the minimum mark on the dipstick. ( note that an oil pressure warning light means stop and switch off -now- even then may be too late)
As another poster said, your first guy if he know it was a warranty job really should have advised you topped it up a bit before getting it towed.
If they are holding fast, and the car has a dipstick, pay your first guy to write a letter stating that that the car had an adequate oil level, above minimum.
There was no oil warning light. I think it's just the dipstick and it was sitting at the minimum oil level when checked .
The 1st mechanic will write a letter. I have his number and he said to call if I need anything for the claim.
bearman68 said:
In terms of cost of repair, I would humbly suggest it's not too bad. I've seen a few of these engines go bang due to timing chain failure (though normally in a BMW). What usually happens is the rocker arms break, but leave the valves intact. Therefore it's a new chain and a new set of rocker arms. Now clearly this is a bit of a gamble, but I would be tempted to do this if it were mine. Prob 10 hours work, plus a set of bits - Say what £1,000 I suppose. A lot of money I know, but worth a punt.
I have no idea what that means haha ! I don't even know how bad the damage is as no one has actually told us other than the 1st mechanic that saw it said it was a big job. I am imagining all sorts of horror prices such as 2-4k sorta thing
Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
EH are talking nonsense and just hope you'll go away.
Your first mechanic is correct...low oil will not cause the chain to snap. Low oil pressure might (although I doubt it), but not low oil.
To correct some responses...the warning on the dashboard is not a low oil LEVEL warning per se, it's a low oil PRESSURE warning (which might be due to lack of oil or a failing pump etc). If that light comes on at any time, you're very close to destroying the engine so stop immediately. Assuming that light didn't come on in this case, then the engine had sufficient oil pressure and all should have been well.
Yeah there was no warning light on at all. Nothing.Your first mechanic is correct...low oil will not cause the chain to snap. Low oil pressure might (although I doubt it), but not low oil.
To correct some responses...the warning on the dashboard is not a low oil LEVEL warning per se, it's a low oil PRESSURE warning (which might be due to lack of oil or a failing pump etc). If that light comes on at any time, you're very close to destroying the engine so stop immediately. Assuming that light didn't come on in this case, then the engine had sufficient oil pressure and all should have been well.
So when EH are saying the oil at minimum level caused this I have to just keep arguing back its not the reason
It was checked 2 weeks prior to this breakdown. I don't really keep a tally on the oil level checks but I just try to do it every few weeks but the level had never changed too much that I would have considered doing it more? Obviously this has now made me mega paranoid and will prob check the level daily !
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