Discussion
Just recently changed the rears on my M235i from the factory fitted Michelin Pilot Super Sports to Michelin Pilot Sport 4's and have driven ~300 miles since, put in the correct tyre pressures and even had a full 4 wheel alignment after fitting.
Grip levels have improved massively from standstill, I can put the power down in 1st now in most road conditions which is a revelation, however, the backend does feel twitchy in scenarios where it felt planted previously... For example, accelerating out of bends and when booting it on roads with slight camber.
Could this be the fact that the tyres need a little more time to bed in? Or just the fact that the PS4's aren't as grippy in general compared to the MPSS' (I knew this, but it feels like a big difference at times, especially when my outgoing MPSS' almost had thread showing)? Or could it even be the alignment itself? When getting the alignment the 'before' print out was way off factory in every aspect (front/rear toe and camber), so if anything it should be a big improvement in that respect...
Grip levels have improved massively from standstill, I can put the power down in 1st now in most road conditions which is a revelation, however, the backend does feel twitchy in scenarios where it felt planted previously... For example, accelerating out of bends and when booting it on roads with slight camber.
Could this be the fact that the tyres need a little more time to bed in? Or just the fact that the PS4's aren't as grippy in general compared to the MPSS' (I knew this, but it feels like a big difference at times, especially when my outgoing MPSS' almost had thread showing)? Or could it even be the alignment itself? When getting the alignment the 'before' print out was way off factory in every aspect (front/rear toe and camber), so if anything it should be a big improvement in that respect...
457892345 said:
Perhaps the fronts being MPSS and the rears being PS4s are causing it? Seems most logical given what you have had done so far.
Yeah maybe, but the front end turn is unchanged, purely the rear end feeling slightly unstable in scenarios/conditions they were previously fine in...TommyBuoy said:
Just to clarify, are they pilot sport 4 or pilot sport 4s?
Reason I ask is because they are quite different, with the PS4S's being the replacement (in the long term, whilst stocks last etc) for the MPSS.
The 4 is not a runflat as well as not being the same 'calibre' as the 4s.
This is a friends experience / info - he owns an m235i
Pilot Sport 4 - Didn't know 4s' were runflats?Reason I ask is because they are quite different, with the PS4S's being the replacement (in the long term, whilst stocks last etc) for the MPSS.
The 4 is not a runflat as well as not being the same 'calibre' as the 4s.
This is a friends experience / info - he owns an m235i
Edited by TommyBuoy on Tuesday 13th November 23:53
I bought the PS4's based on many M-lite owners reviews stating that they're better than the MPSS' in UK conditions, which makes sense, but doesn't feel like it so far that's all!
Ninja59 said:
Come again? the MPSS was replaced by the MPS4S! It is a UHP tyre!
The MPS4, however is not. I suspect the OP has fitted the wrong tyres.
I was under the same impression, however I didn't fit the wrong tyres! I consciously opted for the PS4's over MPSS/PS4s based on fellow M-lite owners' rave reviews! The price difference was negligible, I just thought they'd perform better in standard UK weather conditions (especially during winter). The MPS4, however is not. I suspect the OP has fitted the wrong tyres.
As mentioned in my OP, the grip from standstill is immense but when pushing on a bit or accelerating out of a few twisty bends the back-end isn't as planted. I was just wondering whether it was due to a) tyres still need bedding in b) PS4's are noticeably not as 'grippy' (despite being brand new compared to sub 2mm MPSS') or c) my alignment
xjay1337 said:
Pilot Sport 4 all round on my m135i
Work great, even on track , not toooooooo much behind a PSS in ultimate grip
Interesting - Could be down to the imbalance of having MPSS up front still, I had my reservations about this but after other owners saying they've done the same with no real side effects I went ahead. May need to buy some PS4's for the front axle then Work great, even on track , not toooooooo much behind a PSS in ultimate grip
What PSI are you running front and rear?
I'm running 32PSI/35PSI...
CarAbuser said:
A lot of confusion here and in most topics regarding Michelin tyres. Probably why the OP ended up with the wrong tyres.
The PS4 and PS4S are different tyres. The PS4 is a less performance orientated tyre and is available in smaller wheel sizes 18" and below. The PS4S is the UHP tyre for 19" and above although I think they may be available in 18" soon.
The PS4S replaces the MPSS and is a better tyre in every measure (if only slightly).
I moved from MPSS to MP4S last year. The only real difference is they grip slightly better and seem to be lasting slightly longer.
TyreReviews has done several videos on the PS4S. The one comparing it to the predecessor is here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F65rXOlS2f8
Completely aware of all of the above - Just didn't think the difference would be so noticeable in some scenarios (cornering in wet/greasy conditions), if anything I thought it would be better based on the fact they've got ~300 miles on them whereas my outgoing MPSS' had less than 2mm of tread and even the thread starting to show on the inside (due my previously dodgy alignment)The PS4 and PS4S are different tyres. The PS4 is a less performance orientated tyre and is available in smaller wheel sizes 18" and below. The PS4S is the UHP tyre for 19" and above although I think they may be available in 18" soon.
The PS4S replaces the MPSS and is a better tyre in every measure (if only slightly).
I moved from MPSS to MP4S last year. The only real difference is they grip slightly better and seem to be lasting slightly longer.
TyreReviews has done several videos on the PS4S. The one comparing it to the predecessor is here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F65rXOlS2f8
RobM77 said:
Sounds like an imbalance caused by different tyres front and rear to me. Accelerating in a straight line obviously only really leans on the rears, but as soon as you're cornering you're using both.
Very possible - Hoping to rule that out though so I don't have to fork out another £200+ so soon 
... But if that's the cause then they'll be on order ASAP.May be worth noting that the front tyres' sidewalls are shagged despite having 4-5mm tread left due to a combination of shoddy alignment and incorrect tyre pressures from the previous owner/BMW I think - So, after re-aligning they'll be using a slightly different contact patch? (I don't know much about alignment or tyres in general, just a thought...)
SturdyHSV said:
Just to chime in, if you have PSS on the front still, you will get a slightly odd 'twitch' sensation especially when accelerating and cornering.
In my experience this happens when you have different sidewall stiffnesses front and rear. I have had PSS on the Monaro almost exclusively, I once tried some Avon ZZ3s on the back and got exactly what I imagine you're subscribing. I sold them within a few hundred miles to a fellow Monaro owner who had them all round and he was perfectly happy.
I recently tried swapping my rear PSS for a pair of otherwise identical PS4Ss, and have the familiar (although nowhere near as bad) sensation that I had with the Avons.
Actual grip levels are not the issue, for me personally it is once you're above about 60mph and certain direction changes especially with weight transfer cause a sort of 'flop' sensation at the rear that is really quite unpleasant in the wrong situation. I opted to just drive with it in mind and obliterate the tyres quickly as a solution, so they lasted 2,000 miles
For reference, they leave fantastic 11s, they lay thick black lines immediately, whereas the PSS do require some wheel speed / heat before really drawing anything on the road.
There are one or two other threads on PH about it, someone noticed it in their Astra and even got a sensible response from Dunlop about having different sidewalls front and rear. I tried contacting Michelin for a bit more understanding but got a fairly generic response.
That's good to know, hopefully fitting some PS4's up front too will sort it out! In my experience this happens when you have different sidewall stiffnesses front and rear. I have had PSS on the Monaro almost exclusively, I once tried some Avon ZZ3s on the back and got exactly what I imagine you're subscribing. I sold them within a few hundred miles to a fellow Monaro owner who had them all round and he was perfectly happy.
I recently tried swapping my rear PSS for a pair of otherwise identical PS4Ss, and have the familiar (although nowhere near as bad) sensation that I had with the Avons.
Actual grip levels are not the issue, for me personally it is once you're above about 60mph and certain direction changes especially with weight transfer cause a sort of 'flop' sensation at the rear that is really quite unpleasant in the wrong situation. I opted to just drive with it in mind and obliterate the tyres quickly as a solution, so they lasted 2,000 miles
For reference, they leave fantastic 11s, they lay thick black lines immediately, whereas the PSS do require some wheel speed / heat before really drawing anything on the road.
There are one or two other threads on PH about it, someone noticed it in their Astra and even got a sensible response from Dunlop about having different sidewalls front and rear. I tried contacting Michelin for a bit more understanding but got a fairly generic response.
RobM77 said:
I've experimented a bit over the years and had some alarming experiences as well as just not very satisfying experiences. For the last 15 years I've stuck to always replacing all four at once and, if possible on the car, swapping front and rear to even out the wear. The way I see it is if I've spent all that money and/or trouble finding or creating the right car for me, I don't want to dilute or ruin that experience with mis-matched tyres.
Me too, although with much less experience (~3 years) however I deviated from my norm this time and don't think I'll be doing it again in a hurry!telecat said:
I have the 18" wheels and the Supersports fitted to a M240i and need to replace the rears soon. I also run 2.2 bar in all the tyres. I can't see the Pilot 4S available yet in 18" so it looks like I am stuck with the Supersports??
Looks that way, unless you wanna try out PS4's like me - I'll be able to give some better feedback once I have the fronts fitted too as I'll be doing a ~500 mile drive the weekend after mr_fibuli said:
I've been really impressed with the PS4s on my 235i - they are loads better in wet than my Super Sports were, at the expense of a few 10ths of a second around a dry race track - not something I would ever notice on the road.
It could just be bad timing as my car has had a few unexpected wiggles over the last few days - I just put that down to dropping temperatures and wet leaves.
Good to know, as mentioned previously, an overwhelming amount of "M-lite" owners have raved about them so I don't doubt it!It could just be bad timing as my car has had a few unexpected wiggles over the last few days - I just put that down to dropping temperatures and wet leaves.
Hopefully my uncertainty will be quashed once the fronts are fitted also.
Limpet said:
Watching this with interest.
My Super Sports are coming up for replacement on my M140i (fronts have gone on the outer edges, and rears are down to 2.5mm) and I'd heard loads of good stuff about the Pilot Sport 4, even though it isn't a direct replacement for the Super Sport. The Pilot Sport 4s isn't yet available in 18" fitments, so it's a straight Super Sport vs Pilot Sport 4 choice, for me.
The car will never see a track, so I don't care about any advantage the SuperSports offer in this regard. For me, it's purely fast road use in all weathers. I find the SuperSports brilliant, wet or dry, in warmer temperatures, but they seem to go off noticeably once the temperature dips into single figures. I would be happy to sacrifice a little dry grip (there's loads anyway) for more consistent performance when it gets colder.
Going to bite the bullet in the next few weeks, so I would be keen to know the op's thoughts with a matching set of 4.
Should be getting them fitted this Saturday so I'll report back after giving it a thrashing around the peak district My Super Sports are coming up for replacement on my M140i (fronts have gone on the outer edges, and rears are down to 2.5mm) and I'd heard loads of good stuff about the Pilot Sport 4, even though it isn't a direct replacement for the Super Sport. The Pilot Sport 4s isn't yet available in 18" fitments, so it's a straight Super Sport vs Pilot Sport 4 choice, for me.
The car will never see a track, so I don't care about any advantage the SuperSports offer in this regard. For me, it's purely fast road use in all weathers. I find the SuperSports brilliant, wet or dry, in warmer temperatures, but they seem to go off noticeably once the temperature dips into single figures. I would be happy to sacrifice a little dry grip (there's loads anyway) for more consistent performance when it gets colder.
Going to bite the bullet in the next few weeks, so I would be keen to know the op's thoughts with a matching set of 4.
Worth mentioning, black circles have an offer on Michelin tyres currently (£40 off if you buy all 4)!
Limpet said:
S9JTO said:
Limpet said:
Watching this with interest.
My Super Sports are coming up for replacement on my M140i (fronts have gone on the outer edges, and rears are down to 2.5mm) and I'd heard loads of good stuff about the Pilot Sport 4, even though it isn't a direct replacement for the Super Sport. The Pilot Sport 4s isn't yet available in 18" fitments, so it's a straight Super Sport vs Pilot Sport 4 choice, for me.
The car will never see a track, so I don't care about any advantage the SuperSports offer in this regard. For me, it's purely fast road use in all weathers. I find the SuperSports brilliant, wet or dry, in warmer temperatures, but they seem to go off noticeably once the temperature dips into single figures. I would be happy to sacrifice a little dry grip (there's loads anyway) for more consistent performance when it gets colder.
Going to bite the bullet in the next few weeks, so I would be keen to know the op's thoughts with a matching set of 4.
Should be getting them fitted this Saturday so I'll report back after giving it a thrashing around the peak district My Super Sports are coming up for replacement on my M140i (fronts have gone on the outer edges, and rears are down to 2.5mm) and I'd heard loads of good stuff about the Pilot Sport 4, even though it isn't a direct replacement for the Super Sport. The Pilot Sport 4s isn't yet available in 18" fitments, so it's a straight Super Sport vs Pilot Sport 4 choice, for me.
The car will never see a track, so I don't care about any advantage the SuperSports offer in this regard. For me, it's purely fast road use in all weathers. I find the SuperSports brilliant, wet or dry, in warmer temperatures, but they seem to go off noticeably once the temperature dips into single figures. I would be happy to sacrifice a little dry grip (there's loads anyway) for more consistent performance when it gets colder.
Going to bite the bullet in the next few weeks, so I would be keen to know the op's thoughts with a matching set of 4.
Worth mentioning, black circles have an offer on Michelin tyres currently (£40 off if you buy all 4)!
Cheers
Limpet
More generally on the PS4's they feel very safe in all conditions I've experienced so far, haven't experienced snow yet but I imagine they're a slight improvement on the MPSS - It's very much planted now in 1st/2nd even in the wet which I never had with the MPSS' in 1st, so yeah, go for it!
Limpet said:
Thank you, sounds good.
I've ordered a pair of PS4s for the front from Blackcircles which are being fitted Friday. Will replace the rears with the same next month. I had planned on doing all four after next payday, but the fronts (nearside mainly) won't wait, and with Christmas coming up, I need to spread the load a little bit.
I really like the MPSS in wet and dry, but not in the cold, when they seem to go completely to pot. OK, mine are pretty shagged now, but I remember feeling exactly the same last year when they still had 4mm on them.
- Would be keen to hear your thoughts though!SturdyHSV said:
Good to hear having the same all round sorted the twitchy sensation, certainly adds up.
I actually bought a full set of PS4S but only swapped the rears initially as the front PSS still had a good amount of tread left on them.
I couldn't bring myself to bin off a decent pair of PSS, so opted to roast the rear PS4Ss instead, and will then swap the (slightly narrower) front PSS to the rears and put the news PS4S on the front.
As and when I get around to this I shall try to remember to report back
Indeed, I think a lot is to be said for the 35PSI all around too, previously I was going for 32/34PSI as per BMW's recommendations, feels much better in that regard too now. I've found that tyre pressures is a verrrry subjective thing, everyone seems to have their own beliefs I actually bought a full set of PS4S but only swapped the rears initially as the front PSS still had a good amount of tread left on them.
I couldn't bring myself to bin off a decent pair of PSS, so opted to roast the rear PS4Ss instead, and will then swap the (slightly narrower) front PSS to the rears and put the news PS4S on the front.
As and when I get around to this I shall try to remember to report back
Sounds like a good idea haha - I've got a two 225/40/R18 MPSS with ~3-4mm tread hanging around if anybody here wants to claim them, don't think they're worth trying to sell!
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