Has my insurer stolen my car???
Discussion
GP = GUILTY PARTY
IP = INNOCENT PARTY
CE = CHIEF ENGINEER
My car was hit while parked and unattended.
GP car struck a car which hit mine.
GP admitted fault at the roadside, to myself and the other IP.
My insurers took away my car to local approved repairers.
I connected the boss of the approved repairers and got a “normal” quote 50% of the quote sent to the insurers.
Car was declared right off. Undervalued cheque was issued to me.
I objected, saying I wanted to either dispute valuation or cancel the claim get the repairs done myself and deal with GP insurance direct.
I was to be called back, but weeks went by with no contact, despite many chasings.
Wednesday I finally got someone who said she'd get a manager to call me as she could see there was a cock up.
Yesterday I was called by the chief engineer and told my car could not be returned as it had already been sold on as salvage.
I have not cashed the cheque nor sent them the V5, nor at any point indicated I was going to accept their valuation or cash the cheque. On the contrary, if they have recorded the calls, or the callcentre staff have made notes about my many calls, every communication from me has been about getting the car back one way or another ASAP.
I'm awaiting a return call from the CE.
Anyone able to offer any advice? Have they stolen my car? What could be my maximum compensation if my car cannot be returned to me?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
IP = INNOCENT PARTY
CE = CHIEF ENGINEER
My car was hit while parked and unattended.
GP car struck a car which hit mine.
GP admitted fault at the roadside, to myself and the other IP.
My insurers took away my car to local approved repairers.
I connected the boss of the approved repairers and got a “normal” quote 50% of the quote sent to the insurers.
Car was declared right off. Undervalued cheque was issued to me.
I objected, saying I wanted to either dispute valuation or cancel the claim get the repairs done myself and deal with GP insurance direct.
I was to be called back, but weeks went by with no contact, despite many chasings.
Wednesday I finally got someone who said she'd get a manager to call me as she could see there was a cock up.
Yesterday I was called by the chief engineer and told my car could not be returned as it had already been sold on as salvage.
I have not cashed the cheque nor sent them the V5, nor at any point indicated I was going to accept their valuation or cash the cheque. On the contrary, if they have recorded the calls, or the callcentre staff have made notes about my many calls, every communication from me has been about getting the car back one way or another ASAP.
I'm awaiting a return call from the CE.
Anyone able to offer any advice? Have they stolen my car? What could be my maximum compensation if my car cannot be returned to me?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Edited by GrazedNConfudsed on Friday 14th December 11:39
Edited by GrazedNConfudsed on Friday 14th December 11:42
My quote was the price a normal person would pay, the insurers quote is inflated with original parts and unnecessary repairs, eg a new wheel, where the wheel was not actually affected be the prang.
So at what point do the insurers take legal title to the car? Without which, how can they legally sell that title to someone else?
So at what point do the insurers take legal title to the car? Without which, how can they legally sell that title to someone else?
tinnitusjosh said:
Michaelbailey said:
Very strong argument here for them having stolen your vehicle.
absolutely zero argument here for them having stolen your vehicle.You would have to prove they had acted dishonestly - and to the extent that the dishonesty was criminal which is incredibly difficult. How would you show that they had a dishonest state of mind? That they knew that they had no right to scrap the car but did so anyway? They may have acted negligently, and may have committed a tort of conversion, but you would get nowhere alleging theft
the tribester said:
OP, I am sure chosing the agreed value insurance will prove a wise move, but it'll all be down to the competence of the claims handler, so make sure you email him/her regularly explaining what you want to happen, don't let them just opt for the easiest/cheapest option if this is not how you want it sorted.
Not sure I follow what you mean ; what is the "agreed value insurance"? Black_S3 said:
GrazedNConfudsed said:
So at what point do the insurers take legal title to the car? Without which, how can they legally sell that title to someone else?
Given it is a 3rd party at fault it is when you agree to it as them crashing into your car does not enter you into a contract with their insurers. The position is that they are responsible for compensating you for the loss caused to you by their client.... Worth pointing this out to the 3rd partys insurers, explain what you have lost, give them a break down of the costs and tell them their response will determine your next steps.Henzy said:
What car is it?
Did you get a chance to remove all personal possessions?
Did you own it outright or is there any finance or contract on it?
All possessions were removed, no finance. Did you get a chance to remove all personal possessions?
Did you own it outright or is there any finance or contract on it?
Don't want to put any identifiable info, but it's a small car, quite old, but with rediculously low mileage for its age, and very high spec list for its size/model. Hence the undervalued payout, you just can't get another like it for any money. And hence why I want it back and planned on keeping it for many years.
Black_S3 said:
GrazedNConfused said:
Are you suggesting I hold the GP insurers responsible for my insurers negligence?
No, I'm saying it's nothing to do with your insurers unless you want it to be... You have a financial loss that was caused by GP, GPs insurers are responsible for compensating you for all your losses caused as a result of GP driving into your car, including the full market value of your car.A separate issue is that your insurers claims management department disposed of your car without approval & potentially the 10k diamond ring you were about to propose with in the glove box
Hope that makes sense.
Edited by GrazedNConfused on Friday 14th December 19:23
Gallen said:
I'd say you're in a very strong position regarding the settlement.
ie - you want XXX or YOUR car back.
And in this case, XXX would be far higher than "maket value" as I would never sell it for that!ie - you want XXX or YOUR car back.
I would only have sold it if it gave me cash for a SIGNIFICANTLY upgraded replacement car.
And if your home is compulsory purchased to make way for a bypass, you don't just get market value, you are also compensated for your involuntary loss; inconvenience, emotional distress etc.
Surely the only way they can legitamise the transfer of the title to a third party now would be to purchase said title from me.
And my price would be XXX not market value.
Any thoughts?
Bill said:
That's not how it works. You were insured for market value, you will receive market value. They got rid because storing an old shed (no matter how loved...) costs money.
Go back to them pointing out that it's worth more due to the mileage and condition. Bank the new cheque and move on.
If I cancel the claim how much I was insured for or market value is irrelevant.Go back to them pointing out that it's worth more due to the mileage and condition. Bank the new cheque and move on.
The only thing of relevance is their inibility to return my car, a tort of conversion.
By your logic, if someone assaulted me and took my watch, if I got the watch back, I should move on. That's not how I work!
Edited by GrazedNConfused on Friday 14th December 20:58
desolate said:
GrazedNConfused said:
The only thing of relevance is their inibility to return my car, a tort of conversion.
By your logic, if someone assaulted me and took my watch, if I got the watch back, I should move on. That's not how I work!
Unless I have missed something they didn't beat you up before picking the car up, so the assault comparison is flawed. By your logic, if someone assaulted me and took my watch, if I got the watch back, I should move on. That's not how I work!
They may be able to return your car if you withdraw the claim. If not you can accept their best offer or go through their complaints procedure and ultimately the ombudsman.
Either way it's not theft.
Though I definitely feel I've been mugged!
We've established it's not a "crime of theft", but rather a "tort of conversion".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(law)
Basically it's theft without dishonest intent, with damages payable (including punitive damages) instead of a stint in pokey for the defendant. Which is fine by me, as the satisfaction someone is banged up for this mess won't pay for a new car.
Edited by GrazedNConfused on Saturday 15th December 13:30
berlintaxi said:
By the sound of it you should have gone for agreed value, you will need to demonstrate that equivalent spec'd models are selling for more than they have offered if you hope to get a bigger payout.
XXX is not what I belive market value should be, its what I would have sold the car for the day before the crash, plus an amount for the inconvenience of being without a car since September, many hours time wasted queuing on the phone, the months of stress this had all caused, and now, the emotional distress of basically feeling like being a victim of a crime of theft (ever been burgled?).See anything unreasonable in that? Is UK law not based on the principle of "reasonable man"?
If XXX is the "agreed value" I would gladly settle.
If we agree a tort of conversion has been committed, discussion on market value and insured value is irrelevant. The law provides for restitution in the form of return of lost value (including for zero market value items of sentimental value) AND punative damages. That's the law. Terms and conditions of either my or GPs policy are irrelevant. My issuer has broken the law by being unable to return my car.
I would be most interested to hear the opinions of anyone with legal qualifications in this area or specific experience of a case of tort of conversion, I can't help feeling the rest of the discussion is a bit of a red herring.
I am of course seeking legal advice, and would appreciate if anyone can recommend someone with revenant expertise who might be able to represent me.
Thanks for all your ongoing comments.
desolate said:
ZOLLAR said:
Jeez I've read some stuff in my time on this site, give over, nobody is going to be "banged up" for this.
If you feel the insurer hasn't acted appropriately then raise a complaint with them, exhaust the complaint process and if you feel like they still haven't addressed the issue then you can go to the Ombudsman who will make a decision on the matter.
Stop faffing about being outraged and think logically to get the matter sorted.
Have you actually asked them for more money or your car back?If you feel the insurer hasn't acted appropriately then raise a complaint with them, exhaust the complaint process and if you feel like they still haven't addressed the issue then you can go to the Ombudsman who will make a decision on the matter.
Stop faffing about being outraged and think logically to get the matter sorted.
If course I have, right from the beginning!
ZOLLAR said:
GrazedNConfused said:
Ehh, the example of assault was given to show that restitution of property alone does not equate to justice being served, nowhere did I suggest I'd been assaulted?? Though I definitely feel I've been mugged!
We've established it's not a "crime of theft", but rather a "tort of conversion".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(law)
Basically it's theft without dishonest intent, with damages payable (including punitive damages) instead of a stint in pokey for the defendant. Which is fine by me, as the satisfaction someone is banged up for this mess won't pay for a new car.
Jeez I've read some stuff in my time on this site, give over, nobody is going to be "banged up" for this.We've established it's not a "crime of theft", but rather a "tort of conversion".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(law)
Basically it's theft without dishonest intent, with damages payable (including punitive damages) instead of a stint in pokey for the defendant. Which is fine by me, as the satisfaction someone is banged up for this mess won't pay for a new car.
If you feel the insurer hasn't acted appropriately then raise a complaint with them, exhaust the complaint process and if you feel like they still haven't addressed the issue then you can go to the Ombudsman who will make a decision on the matter.
Stop faffing about being outraged and think logically to get the matter sorted.
Please reread my last paragraph quoted. I clearly state a tort of converion is remedied with payment of damages NOT jail time. You seem to have misunderstood a little humour.
VWDaz86 said:
OP I can't help but feel you're just not accepting what everyone is telling you.
I understand cars can be very sentimental and mean more than money ever could in some cases.
However, the cold hard truth is, there was no "theft" here, and there is a strong chance you will not have that vehicle in your possession again.
Yes the insurance company have acted either thoughtlessly (just got on with the business of value the repair, too pricey vs market value, salvage it and pay you off) or ,debatable, negligently (sold the car on before knowing your position)
Which one of those it is, is open to debate, you clearly believe it to be the latter and want the vehicle plus i suspect compensation for it. however, those of us looking at this from the outside and knowing insurance companies, i would say most (and i do) believe the insurance have gone with the first, they've just gone through the motions that they do with every claim
So your options are this
1. Debate the cheque value with your insurance co to get the payout the car would be worth(evidence needed from adverts, owners clubs etc) and moen on to the next vehicle in your life
2 Pursue your negligence/theft "claim" and attempt legal advice for the return of the vehicle plus compensation via solicitor/ombudsman
personally, I believe 2. to be a complete waste of time.
Correct, no theft; tort of conversion.I understand cars can be very sentimental and mean more than money ever could in some cases.
However, the cold hard truth is, there was no "theft" here, and there is a strong chance you will not have that vehicle in your possession again.
Yes the insurance company have acted either thoughtlessly (just got on with the business of value the repair, too pricey vs market value, salvage it and pay you off) or ,debatable, negligently (sold the car on before knowing your position)
Which one of those it is, is open to debate, you clearly believe it to be the latter and want the vehicle plus i suspect compensation for it. however, those of us looking at this from the outside and knowing insurance companies, i would say most (and i do) believe the insurance have gone with the first, they've just gone through the motions that they do with every claim
So your options are this
1. Debate the cheque value with your insurance co to get the payout the car would be worth(evidence needed from adverts, owners clubs etc) and moen on to the next vehicle in your life
2 Pursue your negligence/theft "claim" and attempt legal advice for the return of the vehicle plus compensation via solicitor/ombudsman
personally, I believe 2. to be a complete waste of time.
So you forgot option 3, a civil case through the courts because the law has been broken.
The ombudsman handles issues to do with insurance claims, this is a case of the law having been broken, it's not under the juristiction of the ombudsman.
With respect, many posters seem to be failing to grasp this and keep repeating market value, negotiate agreed value, etc etc. Until I hear from a solicitor that no tort of conversion has taken place, yes, I'm not focusing on that advice /opinions.
Again I invite any further advice from PHers with relevant legal qualifications or experience, as I feel the best advice posted here so far has been get legal representation.
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