Monday 7th October 2019

Five things I learned from going to Wales Rally GB

A numpty's guide to spectating at a WRC event, written by a rally numpty

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My rallying era is soundtracked by Propaganda's Duel and has Tony Mason standing in a dark and drizzly Grizedale, trying to interview drivers in the middle of a raging snowstorm while William Woollard or Steve Rider holds the fort back in the studio. The cars were real cars, drivers were real drivers, rallies were real rallies, modern WRC just isn't the same thing and all that.

Utterly disillusioned by F1, I've recently experienced something of a personal rallying revival, though. I've actually kept up with this season on Red Bull TV and, a few weeks back, I had a trip to M-Sport where I met Elfyn Evans and got a ride on a forest stage in a WRC Fiesta alongside Gus Greensmith. Mind suitably blown, I was totally fired up for Wales Rally GB and determined to see it for real. Turns out I was woefully underprepared for the reality of going to watch a modern WRC event. Here's what I learned.

You'll need to plan ahead

I knew I wanted a proper stage rather than one of the showcase events like the Oulton Park opener. But realised this was going to require some planning. Two things helped. First, the superb downloadable planner on the https://www.walesrallygb.com/ Wales Rally GB website, containing everything from stage maps to parking info and timings. Knowing the lay of the land around Llyn Brenig from various shoots over the years was also very handy, making this an easy choice. I also asked around for further advice. Should I stick to the officially sanctioned viewing 'pens' or go rogue? Were there any 'secret' spots to make the experience truly memorable? The PH view was a brutal reality check for my breezy assumption I could do it as a casual day trip with my six-year-old, most advising I'd need to get there the night before and sleep in the car.

Get up early... really early

Brenig's a couple of hours from mine and the first cars were due on stage just after daybreak. But the more I read about road closures, distance of hikes from parking to stages and all the rest, the earlier my start time got. The realisation I was actually going to have to leave at 4am was the moment rallying got real and my enthusiasm started to ebb. Given we made it to the stage barely five minutes before the first WRC cars I'll say we made it more through luck than design. Could have been worse, though - I could have slept through it all like the bloke in the folding chair a few yards from us. Gutted.

It's a bigger deal than you ever have realised

For most of the drive across North Wales I was kidding myself it was going to be a breeze and all this talk of huge crowds and nightmare parking was over the top. Wrong. With a few miles to the stages still to go a checkpoint and armies of marshals in multiple layers of hi-vis romper suits appeared out of the rain and gloom, similarly clad rally fans determinedly stomping from cars and camper vans lining the verges laden with brollies, flasks and folding chairs. Clearly, we were total amateurs. Maybe next time I'll sleep in the car after all.

Rally folk are a bit feral... but down to earth

I'm not saying rally fans are a bunch of banjo twiddling Deliverance types. But hiking up through a forest with folk spilling out of muddy sleeping bags and into three-day-old waterproofs it all felt a bit... wild. Friendly though, with a real sense of camaraderie and gritty determination to Have A Good Time whatever the challenges. I could sense the 'you weren't even there, man' response to our obvious day-tripper noob status. But everyone was super friendly and willing to share tips on good places to watch. Or bad ones. Having watched the first pass in one of the pens we stomped the stage in search of a new spot, a banking above a high-speed slalom between log piles looking appealing. "It's amazing. But I wouldn't watch from here with my kid, put it that way." said one of the guys already there. Our eventual spot beside a jump felt sufficiently different from the official viewing pen while still observing parental responsibility obligations.

Rally cars are bloody amazing

Foolishly, I'd written off the latest cars as technically impressive but a little sterile. Wrong, wrong, wrong. That ride in the WRC Fiesta gave me rare insight but, at our first viewing spot, the speed of approach, machine-gun like rattle of anti-lag and sheer violence of acceleration out of the corner was simply awesome. And at the second spot you could see the downforce pinning the cars into the ground, wheels squashed into box arches like they were on tarmac suspension before floating over the jump without even a lift. Chatting with Elfyn Evans at the M-Sport event, he accepted the new cars struggle to communicate their potency to casual viewers, though in the metal stun with their sheer speed. He has a point, but anyone who tells you modern rally cars are boring needs to get closer to them. Thankfully, with a little effort, you can - even in a safe spot we were near enough to be peppered by stones, smell the hot brakes, feel the displacement of air as the cars passed and see the drivers working at the wheel.

After the event we were milling around and somehow ended up 20 metres away from where Ott Tänak and Martin Jarveoja crossed the line and jumped on the roof of their Toyota in celebration of the win, before he and all the other cars drove through a car park full of fans en route to the 'proper' finish in Llandudno. Petter Solberg even stopped to chat. Money couldn't buy you proximity like that to F1 cars or drivers before, during or after a race. Against that, an early alarm call, muddy boots and a hike through the woods seem a small price. Do it.

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[Jon_S_Rally]

Good little piece. As I have said many times on this forum, you really need to see these cars in real life to appreciate just how special they are.

So many just sit back and criticise the WRC, going on endlessly about "the good old days", wheeling out endless "it's not been the same since the end of Group B" and all that other cliched rubbish. If you actually venture out and watch them in the metal, you soon realise that they are talking rubbish. The cars are absolute monsters and we are going through one of the most competitive and exciting eras of the sport we've seen in many, many years. It makes F1 look like watching paint dry.

Also, if you don't like the unsociable hours associated with Rally GB, I would recommend an excursion over to Belgium for the Ypres Rally next year. It's all tarmac, the route is nice and compact in the area surrounding Ypres and access to the stage is really simple. They also start at a slightly more sociable time and the place is full of locals who are happy to chat and provide you with sausages and bottles of beer for a couple of Euros. I went for the first time this year and it was the best rally I have ever been to.

[Jon_S_Rally]

swisstoni said:

Dear Sport Administrators,

If you want to get your sport highlighted, sell the rights to the Beeb, not broadcasters watched by 12 people.

Sadly the BBC just aren't interested in this sort of thing.

andyj007 said:

sad thing is i used to love my rallying, all the way back to 1985, im into motorsport , and didnt even realise this was on... just gets lost on unpopular channels .. such a shame,, went 4 years ago the stages were brilliant, until we went to a designated rally fest at some castle.. utter rubbish, cars forced to go through cones very slowly.. vowed never to waste my money again.. on a hyped up spectator stage.. get out in the forest thats where it happens

I think we need the mix of stage to be honest. While the spectator stages are nowhere near as good as the stages in the forests, they are much easier to access and, if rallying wants to attract new fans, it needs to be accessible.

yonex said:

I’d like to see a rally sometime. Always thought the drivers were on a different level.

It's getting easier now. There are closed-road events popping up all over the UK now, so probably something that's not impossible for you to get to.

Max_Torque said:

I stopped going to rallies after they began to look like a procession of identical 3 mass produced cars driving along.

If you want a proper following, something to really get behind, they need to bring back the fun and sportsmanship, rather than just concentrate on speed and money.

For example, i have driven for 4 hours across the UK to watch Andy Burtons Peugeot Cosworth, just the hear how it sounds at max attack. Yeah, the current crop of carbon copy cars sound ok, in bangy rough kind of way, but they are nothing like proper rally cars used to be:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2IK1lACvj0

The fact the car is entirely home made, by a farmer from Herefordshire is just the icing on the cake!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr7vHp_676U

When the MSA banned these cars (mainly because they were faster than the WRC based cars that cost 4 times more and were driven mostly by rich, but not so talented folk (<< controversial!!)) i gave up going to events, because once you've seen one WRC car, you've seen them all........

The fun and sportsmanship is doing fine. As I said above, get involved with some of the closed-road events and you will see that.

It was a shame that Burton's car got banned, but I do understand why the MSA (as was) were nervous about such home-built cars. If someone built something in their shed and didn't know what they were doing, the consequences could be very serious. Rallying in Europe is in rude health and they don't allow such cars so, while I loved the Burton creation, cars like that aren't essential to the spectacle.

philcray said:

Didn't watch an actual race but I was in Portugal 5 or 6 years ago and saw an advert for the opening event for the WRC to be held in Portimao. I drove there with the family and there was virtually nobody around, after about 20 minute we heard the distinctive rally car sound and wandered around the back of the hotel (the big one on the harbour) where all the cars arrived and parked up on the access road. This included the works teams cars and numerous independents. Most of the cars were open to look in and chat to the drivers, it was a big surprise and probably like the olden days of motor sport.

Back at the hotel lobby it was now getting busier, all the drivers were wandering around and you could get autographs, pictures etc. The official stuff then started a bit later as you see on tv with the cars driving up onto the ramp. After that they roared off and parked up just round the corner, we had a chat with Mads Ostberg and some of the other Scandi drivers as my wife is Swedish....

All in all, a great experience and recommended if you happen to be in Portugal hopefully it is still as laid back!



Our eldest meeting the pit lane girls!

This is what makes rallying almost unique. It is so open compared to most motorsport, even at the upper levels.

spikyone said:

The coverage-sharing deal that preceded the full transfer to Sky was struck because the BBC didn't want sole rights to go to a terrestrial competitor. Channel 4 (jointly with Channel 5, IIRC) wanted to take the rights in their entirety, but the BBC split it with Sky instead. And then within a season or two BBC decided they didn't want it at all.

Anyway, agree with what everyone else has said, and I've never actually sat stage side (I know, I know...) - Group B may be remembered as spectacular but they wouldn't see which way one of these modern cars went.

Indeed. People get very excited about Group B, but they had been surpassed by the early 90s in terms of speed.

RB5Steve said:

After watching the rallying from the Lombard RAC days, Network Q and now I've seen the difference over the years, the group 4, group B and the McRae and Burns days, but those early days the rally GB was all over Britain and we used to buy our rally pack ( remember those) plane our stages and route for the rally then set off for four days of rallying, a couple of stages in Wales, then head up to grizedale, over to north north Yorkshire for a few stages and a trip over the border into the Scottish stage's, but that was the days when petrol was cheap and entry to stages was pay per car and not per person, I've still got tickets from the Lombard RAC days with prices per car of £2! I've been to the Wales rally GB a couple of times, but now I don't go into the forest due to a now disability, but things still look the same, plan your stages and route, get there very early and watch the action. The rally cars these days are very fast and are good to watch at full chat, would be nice to see a few more car maker enter to make it more interesting and also get it back on terrestrial TV instead of having to pay for it or watch Welsh TV of the coverage but not understand a word there talking about! I downloaded red bull and watched coverage on that and a lot of very good clips on YouTube. I miss getting out a watching it, but I'm afraid my old legs won't let me walk far these days.

The All Live coverage is very good too. You have to pay £10 a month, but it gives you basically every stage live.

Turbobanana said:

I know what you mean, Steve...

On the point of variety, I was trying to do a snapshot of different eras to look at the number / type of memorable cars involved, from when I first went to the Lombard RAC (late 70s) to now:

Late 1970s:
Ford Escort
Renault Alpine
Saab 96 V4
Opel Manta / Ascona
Toyota Celica
Various Datsuns (240Z, Violet etc)
Fiat 131
Minis
Lancia Stratos (my favourite!)
Porsche 911
Vauxhall Chevette HS

1980s:
Audi quattro
Lancia 037
Toyota Celica
Peugeot 205 T16
Lancia Delta S4 / Integrale
Ford Sierra Cosworth / Sapphire 4x4
BMW M3
Vauxhall Astra
Metro 6R4
Renault 5 Turbo
Rover Vitesse
Saab 900 Turbo
Nissan 240RS
Ford RS200

1990s / 2000s:
Subaru Legacy
Subaru Impreza
Mitsubishi Lancer Evo etc
Ford Focus
Peugeot 206
Citroen C4
F2 / Kit Cars

Last few years:
Hyundai iWhatever
VW Polo
Minis
Toyota Yaris
Ford Fiesta
Citroen C3
Skoda Fabia

While far from an exhaustive list (and with apologies to fans of other stuff I have missed and oddball one-offs - remember Francis Tuthill's VW Beetle, and the Trabant?), this is my recollection of memorable, numerous cars over the last 40 or so years.

What it tells me is that we have far less variety than we used to enjoy. For me, a large part of the joy of watching live rallying was the variety of cars and, indeed, driving abilities and characters, that used to enter. I was 100m from the tree Tony Pond hit in Knowsley Safari Park (it's on YouTube); my brother and I have helped roll Colin McRae out of a ditch in Wales; my camera was smashed by a lump of ice thrown from Hannu Mikkola's quattro in Clocaenog and I saw Tommi Makkinen remove the rear wheel of his Mitsubishi by hitting a concrete block after slipping on oil spilled by a Hillman Imp at Millbrook. I also saw the last homologated Stratos share the start ramp with a Peugeot 604 Diesel in Chester and limped miles into a stage in 2013 with a broken toe to watch the action. I have camped overnight in the middle of forests in all sorts of practical cars: Fiat X1/9, Peugeot 106 Rallye, TVR S2, Saab 900 Turbo (actually that was really comfortable!) and an Isuzu Trooper.

As with most things these days, there seems to be a bit too much added complexity which dilutes the viewing spectacle a bit. Yes, the cars are technologically fantastic and way, way quicker and more efficient through stages than even the best Group B cars, but to me they lack visual drama and sound boring.

If the variety of entries was better, and the whole event less of an ordeal for me to contemplate with 2 young children in tow, I'd consider going back. But as has been said above, I didn't know the event was on until 2 days before it started and haven't seen any of it on TV.

Also, bring back the night stages!

In terms of current recent cars, I'd update your list a bit:

Hyundai i20
VW Polo
Mini
Toyota Yaris
Ford Fiesta
Citroen C3
Citroen DS3
Skoda Fabia
Peugeot 208
Opel Adam
Toyota GT86
Abarth 124
Porsche 997

Things aren't quite as bad on that score as some would make out. If you go to lower level rallies, you will see even more of course, though you then run into the issue of there being far too many old cars. The challenge is, the FIA introduced the "R" categories (R1, R2, R3, R4, R5) which limited people to buying a kit to build a car, or buying a complete car. To complete on an international rally, you need a car that fits into one of those categories.

Also, WRGB ran into the dark this year, on the Saturday.

cerb4.5lee said:

What stopped us going was the big change with health and safety(I can obviously understand why but it ruined the atmosphere a fair bit for me). When we first used to go you could stand pretty much anywhere(within reason), then we went one year and everything was cordened off and you were miles away from the action. Shame.

You still can in reality. While there are designated spectator zones, you can still walk beyond them and stand in other places. Sadly, irresponsible spectators have meant that greater control is necessary.

300bhp/ton said:

Special maybe, but sadly still very uninteresting to many rally fans

Sadly, a lot of rally fans are allergic to change

300bhp/ton said:

Couldn't give a toss how much of a monster they are. I want cars I can relate to and are far more grass roots in appearance and design. Personally I'm not promoting the Group B era either. For me it was what was Group A, before, after and during the Group B era. All of the modern "formula" rally cars all look too much the same, all look horrific, all sound the same and all appear to drive very similar. If it wasn't for the paint schemes you'd hardly know which one was going past. That is what is boring about them, no innovation, no variation. Basically, once you've seen one go past, the rest will not be anymore interesting. In past times there was great variety and array of sights and sounds. Making each car an individual spectacle to see and hear.

It's not just WRC that is inflicted, any race series that is turned into a "formula" by the regulations usually ends up being utter rubbish and a shadow of it's former self. Even extreme motorsports like monster truck racing is so much less interesting these days, because they are all purpose built to a set of regs, rather than basing the builds on production vehicles. It is the regulations that make WRC boring, as it results in uninteresting cars.

So much so, I'd rather watch a car going half the speed on the same surfaces if it was a more interesting to watch and listen too. Ultimate speed really isn't and shouldn't be the main driver for making rallying interesting. It's a bit like just making music louder and louder, even if it's rubbish music.

Don't get me wrong, Group A was brilliant, but it was doomed from the start. Producing homologation specials is expensive, so you're immediately limiting the number of manufacturers that will be involved. The idea that a Group A car is like a road car is also a bit misleading in reality. I own a Group A car. The only standard part is the engine block. They were nothing like road cars.

The current WRC regs are far from perfect and I was a sceptic when they first appeared (I still am, as the cars are too expensive) but you can't deny that they have revitalised the series. It's better than it's been in years. Yes, the cars look similar and sound similar, but doesn't that just reflect the realities of the automotive industry? We have reached the optimum shape for road cars in terms of balancing aero and interior space and the industry has adopted small-CC turbo engines. The regs exist to enhance competition and encourage participation. If you make it too open, the costs will spiral and teams will leave.

The Group A era is my favourite, but it's in the past and was unsustainable. Rose-tinted specs won't save the sport sadly.

300bhp/ton said:

So you will deride F1, but not let anyone have the same view of WRC......

People can think whatever they like about the WRC. If they don't like it, then good luck to them. However, this is a discussion forum and, if people are making inaccurate statements, or I can point them in the direction of something that might answer their questions or allow them to enjoy rallying more, then I am happy to do so. You are very welcome to disagree

[Jon_S_Rally]

ArnageWRC said:

I went, as I always do, and enjoyed it. The speed and commitment of the top drivers is something to behold - helped by the fabulous technology of the cars, and the detailed pace notes, as the same stages are used year on year (with the odd slight change of stage layout).
I do agree with an earlier poster about the lack of variety; they're all 1.6T 4 pots so they mainly all sound similar. In years gone by we cars had a distinctive engine/ exhaust note. Even the WRC2 cars are all 1.6T 4 pots. But that's just how it is.

No, it's not the old RAC which was 'special' and had massive crowds, mainstream national coverage on TV, radio and newspapers - and was normally the last major motorsport event of the year. Now it's just another event on a packed weekend of global motorsport.

Enjoy it for what it is - not what it used to be (something I'm guilty of).

I still class myself as a WRC fan, but I don't and never will like the direction it has gone; 12-14 events of two and bit days is not my idea of a WRC should be about. But the teams, FiA, the promoter have decided that this is what the modern WRC is all about. An easily packed series of compact events that can move around the world - and can deliver tv coverage every few weeks at the same time; finishing with the Power stage around lunch time.
Next year sees the return of the Safari - except it really isn't. Running a WRC event on 'open roads' isn't acceptable; so it will be the normal 2 and a bit days of action.
I liken it to running Le Mans over 6 hours on the Bugatti circuit, and telling everybody its the same.

As for the coverage, well, we've never had it so good. There is subscriber service WRC All Live for the dedicated fan, which is also on BT Sport, Red Bull TV (which is free)have nightly highlights plus a live stage on Saturday, then there are the Channel5 highlights, usually on the following Monday.

One final moan; WRC is producing another 3 way fight for the title, yet people moan about boring WRC domination. However, Mercedes/ Hamilton in F1, and Honda/ Marquez are completely dominating their series again, yet people are seemingly okay about it; and we get pages of inane drivel about it on here and in other forums while a WRC event is lucky to get a dozen comments.

Well put. We should enjoy the heritage of the sport, but we have to accept that times change. Many things about the modern WRC are much better than the old one, while some are not. Regardless, we should enjoy people driving fast cars on forest tracks and public roads for as long as we can!

PistonBroker said:

My rallying era can be defined by your first paragraph as well Dan. In fact, my Dad and I expressed surprise on Saturday that it was on when we spoke on the phone - it was November when we used to stand in the grounds of Chatsworth, or at Sutton Park, or even Donington once.

A client who I follow on Instagram is an amateur rally driver and went along. I got fired up by his Insta stories - more so than the snippets I caught on TV - and made a note to self to get my act together next year.

Not sure I'm all that cut out for that effort though! I'm certain youngest won't see the appeal in the slightest!

Though it has to be said, when I was a kid, I did envy my Dad's tales of following the night stages around Wales and then dashing back to Brum for his day job as a teacher. I guess at least this is closer to those halcyon days.

Rally GB is back to a November slot for 2020, so we can go back to being cold again

300bhp/ton said:

As WRC cars? Were these running this weekend and covered on the telly?

No, but the point was about variety of cars, not variety of WRC cars. There were different classes in the good ol' days too after all.

FiF said:

Part of the issue is that there doesn't seem to be the same clear progression link from grass roots up to top level rallying as was once the case.

I started in the 70s, road rallies, 12 car was my first event, went off. Progressed through closed and restricted events, spectating on national stages and RAC etc. The parallel between you as a beginner and those further up the tree were obvious, similar cars etc.

The first time seriously spectated on the RAC, as in renting a camper for a week and following it round living off beans and fish suppers was the year Makinen /Liddon won in the works Colibri Escort, 1974. This was when, to me, the gap between the top people and the local hot shots was clearly a matter of light years.

Everybody will have had at some point a special moment, here's mine.

November 1974 Coed-y-Brenin, early hours of the Sunday morning, still dark obviously. Downhill icy track, so icy you had difficulty standing up on it, over a little brow then steeper down into a 30 right over cattle grid between gate posts.

Spectator crowd scattered across the field either side of the track, none of us getting too close as it really was icy. First sound of a BDA engine at full chat, the distinctive Waaaa - Waaaaaaaa - Waaaaaaaaaa as the vehicle was wrung through the gears, going really hard, sometimes that noise varying as the rear wheels fought for grip and slip and grip. The loom of impossibly bright white lights over the near horizon. Christ he's going, just how on this ice?

Over the brow flies a bundle of noise, light, clattering stones, hot brakes, oil smell. Flash guns fire, "Makinen" someone shouts.

And he's off down the hill towards the 30 right over cattle grid, the dark outline of the car framed by a pool of theatrically illuminated track, centre stage is the 30 right and cattle grid.

"Bloody hell,he's still accelerating!" Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

"He's got to be off!" "No way!"

Brake lights flare, Makinen hits the brakes, gets the level absolutely perfect, right on the point of almost locking up. Off the brakes, flicks it through right, and "Waaaa- Waaaaaaaaa - Waaaaaaaaaa" off into the night.

Spectators, utter stunned silence, just listening to the magic and realising they witnessed something special.


Thanks Timo, RIP.

The class system isn't ideal at the moment, that's for sure. The "R" cars have given a progression and path, but they're expensive and quite restrictive and, in the UK at least, people seem reluctant to use them at lower levels and then move up. As with all sport too, we seem to focus on getting people into the top as soon as possible so, rather than working your way up through low-level events, then nationals and internationals, we now seem to be parachuting people in to the upper echelons. At the extreme, you've got Solberg and Rovanpera in R5 cars as soon as they can drive but, even below that, many are skipping a lot of lower level stuff and aiming to get into the JWRC as soon as possible.

300bhp/ton said:

eh? You do realise the VAST majority of competition cars in the country and probably across the globe fall into this category. Very few vehicles in the grand scheme of things are factory backed and built.

Of course they do, but there is a difference between a home-built near-standard car and something that's had the floor cut out, the rear end cut off and is entirely bespoke. Of course a badly built car of any kind can be dangerous, but I can still see why such cars were banned. The fact we don't get the proto cars over here is a bit of an oddity caused by the change, so it could be worth revisiting.

[Jon_S_Rally]

300bhp/ton said:

Not really. In fact it is the opposite.

The current regs are stagnated as they do NOT allow change. It is a formula, that all the cars have to be built almost exactly the same, just finished off with a fake bodyshell on top. To make it appear as though it relates to that brand.

If the regs allowed change, there wouldn't be the dross of a one make series, which it currently is.

I'm not knocking the engineering, abilities of the cars or the drivers. But as Max_Torque said:

once you've seen one WRC car, you've seen them all........

Is bang on the money.

I would suggest that rally folk are quite clearly allergic to change (in the UK at least). If that weren't the case, most UK entry lists wouldn't be 30% Escorts and we wouldn't still be harping on about Group B.

The formula exists because it's necessary. We had homologated Group A cars and, by the mid '90s, were rapidly running out of manufacturers. The WRC regs of '97 were introduced to save the sport. If they hadn't been, we would have been left with Subaru and Mitsubishi. Not to mention, as I said, a Group A car was naff-all like a road car. Every single mechanical component was changed and the body shells were often cut-up so much that they were bordering on being a silhouette even then. You could even argue that there was effectively a formula - C-segment car, 2.0-litre turbo engine, 4WD. Now we have B-segment car, 1.6-litre engine, 4WD.

Like I said, Group A was brilliant, my favourite era of all, but we have to be realistic too. Even if you remove all the aero, the cars would still look very similar, because most road cars look very similar.

300bhp/ton said:

I don't believe this. During the Grp A haydays there were more car makers than now or at any time since switching to the WRC format. I also doubt very much that building 100% purpose built race cars, with regs that change year on year (in minor ways, but enough to cost huge sums to address). Is cheaper.

I'm willing to wager if the figures in full were looked at, that today's format is likely significantly more expensive.

I suspect the homologatoin specials you are thinking of were Grp B, not A.

You might not believe it, but if it wasn't true, why did Group A fall over? The number of manufacturers in a championship is also influenced by more than just technical regulations of course. Given that Hyundai and Toyota have joined in the last few years, I would suggest that things have been going in the right direction. The new hybrid rules will be another test of course.

I've already said that the new cars are too expensive (I think we should have phased out the WRC cars and used R5 as the top category personally) but designing and homologating a road car is also expensive. Perhaps, with so many 4WD hot hatches on sale, we could find a middle ground again, who knows, but you need to sell a lot of units to offset the development costs, so there is no evidence that it would work in my view.

300bhp/ton said:

What car do you own?

And it depends what era and age of cars you are looking at. Building a rally spec TR7 V8, Escort, Sierra, SD1, 205 or even classic Impreza is not so difficult for an independent.

For example, this is a Grp A car, yet it is firmly related to the production car of the time. And would be possible for someone to build something similar if they so wished. And of course the elephant in the room, you could at the time go to the dealership and buy yourself something that was close enough to a road going version. Try that with any of today's WRC cars!!

An F2 Escort RS2000. One of the cheapest F2 Kit Cars, but still nothing like a road car.

Yes, you can turn any of the cars you list into a rally car, along with basically any other car, but that doesn't make it a Group A car. Using your example, you can even make a pretty potent Impreza from a road car that, in the right hands, might trouble a WRC car that isn't being driven to its full potential, but it will still be a long way from the cost and complexity of the Impreza you picture above. It might look similar but, like my Escort, the Group A Impreza shared little with the cars in showrooms in the mid-90s. You can fit a WRC body kit to a Fiesta ST in the same way you can paint an Impreza blue and put a 555 livery on it, doesn't make them the same as the rally cars. Of course the modifications to the Fiesta are much more significant as it's been converted to 4WD, but I think the link between road cars and Group A cars is often a little stretched.

I would love to see cars in the WRC that were more closely linked to road cars but, again, in the current climate, it's just not that realistic.

300bhp/ton said:

I'm sorry, but I just don't see this. Maybe it is more popular in other countries. But as noted by this thread, the coverage in the UK is about as poor as it could be made. And I doubt physical spectator numbers are as high as they were in past decades.

It also seems to be a dead duck as a marketing tool. I mean who in any frame of mind has visited any dealership in the past 20 years based on watching WRC?

However it was clearly obvious that many people did visit Subaru, Mitsubishi and Ford in past decades based on having a look at the rally born road going cars they had on offer. So much so, that car makers even introduced entire new divisions to cater for this.

"The Ford RS badge was born for rally racing, the RS stands for Rallye Sport."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Team_RS

I think it's probably fair to say that rallying is doing better outside of the UK in some respects, but I think it has also improved in the UK in recent years. Crowds at Rally GB have grown I believe. The late noughties were a dark time for the WRC with only two teams, but things have improved dramatically. Are viewing figures as good as in times past? Perhaps not, but I never said they were, just that things are a lot better than they have been for a very long time. Rather than moaning, perhaps we should celebrate that.

Let's face it, motorsport in general has lost its popularity among many, as well as its marketing clout, which is why so many car manufacturers are now sponsoring other sports. Who has visited a dealership based on watching any motorsport, let alone rallying? Not many people anymore.

300bhp/ton said:

Maybe so, but I'm not sure that means it is revitalised or good, just better.

They were right to cancel Group S cars, its such a shame they then appeared as WRC cars later on. It really was the introduction of the WRC regs that, for me at least, and I think others in this thread. Is the distinct change in top flight rallying and not for the better.

So the recent changes have made it better, but you still think they're bad? I'm not sure that entirely makes sense...

Many would argue that introducing the WRC regs saved the sport. It ensured that Ford and Toyota stayed, as well as bringing in Peugeot, Citroen, Skoda, Seat and Hyundai. They did leave the rules in place for too long, meaning that most teams left again, but the WRC rules as introduced in 1997 saved the sport from becoming a two-horse race.

300bhp/ton said:

No not really. We probably have more model choice and variety today than at any point prior.

Plus in past rallying days it wasn't about just rallying your smallest dullest vehicle. The vehicles were often interesting and varied covering pretty much every body configuration out there.

For me they should have stuck with Grp A, but more strictly enforced keeping the tech, design and look closer to production cars. With a simple divide of 2wd and 4wd vehicles. So you could run more than one championship. This means we could have seen a proper competing rally Boxster, MX-5, Alpine. Alongside with saloon and hatch models. All running various different types of engines.

While we do have more model choice, we also have less engine choice.

It isn't about the smallest, dullest vehicle, but about creating a ladder that people could move up. I'm no big fan of the R-classes, but I see why they did it and it has worked to some extent, as R2 and R5 have proven a huge success in terms of the number of cars out there.

The problem is, if we'd stuck with Group A in the 1990s, the sport would have died, as there simply weren't enough Group A-fodder 4WD road cars being produced. Everyone gave up, as they were expensive to build and sales were suffering because of high insurance etc. There is the possibility that it could be brought back now, thanks to a return of 4WD performance cars, but it's almost too late now in reality, as we're going to be going down the hybrid route.

As for 2WD and 4WD, that does exist in a way, but most manufacturers haven't bothered to create the cars. That's as much to do with promotion and marketing as it is the technical regulations I suspect.

300bhp/ton said:

Really! do you honestly believe that.

I'd have said older car were much more roomy inside for a given footprint. And many older cars were much more slippery shaped. Modern crash and impact regs play a huge part of the shape of a car today. Which is usually not aligned with interior space or aero.

Lordy, pedantic or what My point exactly. Within the current design constraints of aero, interior space, packaging, crash protection, we've reached just about the optimum shape that current materials and manufacturing techniques allow. That's why road cars all look very similar and, as a result, road-based race cars do too.

300bhp/ton said:

Which frankly can only been as a massive negative

There is simply no way to look at it in any other way.

It's just reality. We can moan about it all we like, it's already happened and it isn't going to change.

300bhp/ton said:

I think it is clearly a fail, certainly on the latter and more than likely on the former.

Except that, in the last few years, two more major manufacturers have joined the main WRC championship. Oh and M-Sport and Skoda have sold how many R5 cars between them?

300bhp/ton said:

Again, history would suggest this is not the case.

The Super Touring formula in touring cars would counteract your argument, as well as the fact Group A rallying died on its arse as manufacturers pulled out.

300bhp/ton said:

It wasn't and I don't believe there is anything to really back up that it wasn't. After all the Goledn age of rallying and the time prior and after to this were all based on production cars.

If Group A was sustainable, why did the rules change? Why did we only have Ford, Subaru and Mitsubishi in 1996 (as Toyota were banned) but, by the early 2000s, we'd had those, plus Seat, Skoda, Citroen, Hyundai, Peugeot? If it wasn't for the WRC regs, those manufacturers wouldn't have been there.

Like I said much earlier in this topic, and on every other rally topic I post in, rally folk have a habit of looking at the world through rose-tinted specs. Group A is gone, Group B is gone, Group 4 is gone. They aren't coming back. The world of motorsport has changed. While we should enjoy the history of our great sport, we have to embrace change and enjoy what we have now. And what we have now is four manufacturers and, since we got the new cars in 2017, some of the closest competition we've had in a quarter of a century. It is far from perfect but, if people can't enjoy that and can only moan about what the cars sound like and that they can't buy one in the showroom, then motorsport probably isn't for them anymore.

[Jon_S_Rally]

300bhp/ton said:

But that was the point. In past times you'd get the variety of vehicles at a single event running the same stages. Sure they might not all have been competing directly with each other, but they were their to be viewed and heard.

The fact you have plucked a couple of random cars that run only very specific events, that are mostly impossible for the average Brit to go and see easily and that aren't competing or entering the Wales GB rally, really sums up there is less variety today.

Yes, and on current WRC rallies, you have WRC, which has four different cars, R5, which has 5-10 possibilities now, R2 which has another few different cars and, on select rounds, R-GT, which has a couple more. Then on WRGB you also have the national field, which has loads of different stuff from various eras. Is there less variety than there has been at some points? Maybe, but there is still variety.

300bhp/ton said:

I just can't see how the figures add up.

Homologating a vehicle isn't all that expensive in the grand scheme of things. As many major components already exist. So the development costs go into building a race car. But then you also recoup some of these costs by actually selling the cars. E.g. the Impreza Spec C's and the like.

With the WRC format you don't have any major components to start with and you have the entire development costs of building a car from scratch. Which must be more costly. And then you don't recoup any costs at all as they aren't sold.

Group B cars I can understand a little more. Very bespoke, so potentially expensive to build, but required in high enough numbers that you couldn't employ two people in a shed to build them. Which then also made them very expensive to buy, and thus difficult to sell. But Group A (maybe bar the last couple of years where the rules where being pushed a bit too far) this wasn't the case at all. And we ended up with lovely road going cars like the Type R/RA, GT-Four and many others.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 9th October 09:22

You're right, you do get some of those costs back by selling a road-going version of your homologation special but, for the rally version (certainly for Group A), virtually all the mechanical parts were changed, so the costs of developing the rally car were still there. Maybe they would have been less in the very early days of Group A but, as soon as it replaced Group B, the costs rocketed as they were manufacturer teams with manufacturer budgets.

DelicaL400 said:

Which is why there is the logbooking process - if you don't know what you're doing your car won't get a logbook. Andrew Burton did know what he was doing, his car was arguably safer than most in terms of its construction. Yet the MSA banned it. Meanwhile shed-built specials are still allowed on hill climbs, rallycross, comp safaris etc etc.

They are, and some of the stuff I've seen on hill climbs is frightening to be honest. I wouldn't do 30mph in it, let alone 130. They do seem to be getting tougher on hill climb now, as a friend has had his home-built chassis knocked back without having the roll hoop tested. The change in regulations was draconian and I don't think it was entirely helpful, particularly as it has outlawed the proto cars that are getting popular in Europe, but I can still understand why the decision was made, even if I don't fully agree with it. Let's face it, rallying hasn't died without Burton's car, no matter how much we liked it.

Mr Peel said:

For the first time in several years I couldn't make it this time. Glad it got on the PH radar though. Great to read some positive posts for once. Does any subject bring out the 'good old days' brigade more than rallying?

Definitely not. Rallying is one of the most stuck-in-the-past, rose-tinted-spectacles-wearing sports going

300bhp/ton said:

This would depend on which Group A cars you are looking at. the 1995 Impreza I posted above is far more similar to a production model than ANY WRC class car is. And by a huge margin. Also the majority of the parts would have been fitted to homologation models, so would have been sold to the public at some point. That was the entire point of the class.

However if we look at earlier Group A cars such as these:


Then they are even closer to their showroom counterparts.

And lets not forget, Group A was by and large just a renaming of Group 2 with a few changes. But Group 2 existed since 1959 I beleive. And gave us loads of fantastic and awesome rally cars.

Yes, a WRC car is more modified from the production base than a Group A car but, by allowing that, more manufacturers were encouraged to join the sport. Would we have got WRC cars from Peugeot, Citroen, Seat, Skoda if they had been forced to produce a road-going version? I doubt it.

Also, while the public could buy the homologated road-going version of a Group A car, realistically, that car shared virtually no parts with the rally car, so the link was far more strenuous than some like to believe. As someone said above, every suspension part, the transmission, dampers, sub frames, drive shafts, engine internals etc etc etc were ALL changed. Maybe in the early days of Group A, there might have been more parts from the road car on the rally car, but that would have very quickly changed, as the rules allowed it. Even a Group A Sierra Cosworth was far-removed from the road car. The only cars that were representative of the road cars in that era were Group N, and even that was questionable at times.

One thing I did like was that a privateer could slowly build a Group A car, upgrading their Group N car by fitting Group A bits a bit at a time, but none of the cars in the WRC were like that in reality, just the privateers at the back. It's a shame that we've lost that path of being able to buy a car and upgrade it. I am not a fan of the way people are forced to buy a kit of parts to build a car, as I think it forces costs up.

The first Impreza WRC retained the H-pattern box, basically as it was, from the Group A car. The suspension wasn't that different, albeit wider, and even the engine was only an evolution of the Group A version, albeit with a different turbo, exhaust and cooling package. For the first year it was very much a wide track Group A car from what I have been told, but was upgraded as time went on.

Olivera said:

Not really, for example the Group A Escort Cosworth retained the rear suspension semi-trailing arm design of the road car, and I think the pickup points were also either the same or very similar. The implementation was a little different, but the general design was the same for homologation reasons, despite this being a primitive setup even for the early 90s!

Road car:



Group A:

It retained the same operating principle for the suspension. One is a lump made from tubular and pressed sheet steel, while one is fully adjustable and made from mag alloy - I suspect there was a fair difference in price between the two!

Pick-up points had to remain within 20mm (or maybe 25mm, I can't remember) of the standard position, so you could alter the behaviour of the car quite a lot in reality.