End of petrol and hybrid
Discussion
I see Boris is now including hybrid vehicles in his plans to remove petrol vehicles from sale from 2035. There is to be a consultation but we all know consultations are a waste of time as the politicians do what they like anyway based on whatever is popular at that time.
After an EV owner said their car was scrap after 8 years I looked at battery warranties. Tesla give a warranty for 150,000 miles or 8 years. That effectively means a Tesla will be scrap after 8 years does it not?
Not particularly green. Ok for emissions at point of use.
After an EV owner said their car was scrap after 8 years I looked at battery warranties. Tesla give a warranty for 150,000 miles or 8 years. That effectively means a Tesla will be scrap after 8 years does it not?
Not particularly green. Ok for emissions at point of use.
The battery warranties are (presumably) based on the predicted life of the battery -it is a sales technique. If the batteries last longer then it is in the interest of the manufacturer to give a longer warranty.
The example I was referencing was a Mitsubishi that was down to a 30mile range.
Maximising battery life seems to require not charging above 80/90% and not discharging too low (10%?). If so then realistic range is about 70% of advertised range. In a car with an advertised 300 mile range it’s only really about 210 miles on that basis.
The example I was referencing was a Mitsubishi that was down to a 30mile range.
Maximising battery life seems to require not charging above 80/90% and not discharging too low (10%?). If so then realistic range is about 70% of advertised range. In a car with an advertised 300 mile range it’s only really about 210 miles on that basis.
RobDickinson said:
10 years ago you had the Tesla roadster, 2-3kw charging and not much else. Not even a leaf.
Now you have cars with 370 mile range, 2.4s to 60 and up to 350kw charging
In 15 years no one is going to be buying cars with pistons in.
And that is sad for car enthusiasts - might as well buy a play station and work from home. I accept I’m probably in the minority but I enjoy the noise of a petrol engine and a synthesised noise won’t do.Now you have cars with 370 mile range, 2.4s to 60 and up to 350kw charging
In 15 years no one is going to be buying cars with pistons in.
Shaoxter said:
That's where you're wrong, kids these days all aspire to own Teslas (and Merc A classes).
Not all of them.My son was waiting to be collected from school when his friends were discussing which of them had the best car- a Tesla model x or a model s.
I drove up and my son said “ that’s my father and that’s a v8”
I know, cool story...
If these things are so good they don’t need massive public investment or tax incentives surely or government interference.
When someone says government planning I despair at the waste of public funds there have been over the years. This will be no different.
The government utterly messed up the solar strategy despite there being a German report clearly identifying the problems caused by feed in tariff promotions.
We moved from horse to car without tax benefits.
RobDickinson said:
I charge my EV on an 8 amp charger, half the power of a UK kettle.
I’m glad it works for you but let’s have a look at what it means:8 A at 230 = 1840w
Charged for 8 hours = 14.7KwH
If an ev does 2-3(say 2.5) miles per Kwh then you are able to drive 36 miles per day.
That wouldn’t get me to the station and back without charging in between.
My home uses approx 9000kwh pa and an electric car such as this would add another 5500kwh needed just for 36 miles a day. Is there capacity for an extra 5500kwh per household?
cerbfan said:
Plus when all the electric cars are plugged in and the smart grid kicks off for real, in times of peak demand the grid will be able to draw power from the cars as they will represent a huge energy storage system capable of smoothing out any dips in supply capacity.
I don’t understand this.If I plug in my super wigwam EV as it needs to be fully charged for my drive tomorrow I don’t want to go to it in the morning to find it’s at 50% because some git down the road was making a cup of tea at midnight.
it's the plugging in of many EVs overnight that causes the peak demand so I'm not sure the energy storage argument works
Edited by Miserablegit on Wednesday 5th February 09:04
austinsmirk said:
I can't be bothered doing the calculations- but my real world experience of charging is this:
my gas/electric cost per month is £124 for a large family house.
charging an EV, for 12 mths to drive 8000 miles PA- has added just £22 a mth in electric to that bill.
no idea what all that is in kwh.
In practice an EV is saving me/my wife/household the equivalent of £1300 PA in road tax, MOT, reducing servicing costs, fuel costs.
the hassle factor of not running out of petrol/running low and messing about at petrol stations is a thing of pure joy.
Anyway, here is a question seeing as we're stuck on the quandary of power...................... how many kwh's would be saved by a reduction in the petroleum industry ?
eg less oil rig production, less helicopter flights, boat flights, less oil pumping, less refinery work, less tankers driving around the country fueling stations ?
one figure I do recall is that an EV can drive 27 miles on the equivalent energy its take to refine a gallon of oil to petrol. Of course the energy you get from oil is not 100% as it is from electric.
Again, I'm happy EV works for you. You have chosen a car that saves you money and is suitable for your needs and the figures show that you don't actually need any tax breaks to do it as even if you had to pay road tax at the highest rate you'd still be better off. This is how it should be - let the market build the cars that work. That's a far more efficient way to do things.my gas/electric cost per month is £124 for a large family house.
charging an EV, for 12 mths to drive 8000 miles PA- has added just £22 a mth in electric to that bill.
no idea what all that is in kwh.
In practice an EV is saving me/my wife/household the equivalent of £1300 PA in road tax, MOT, reducing servicing costs, fuel costs.
the hassle factor of not running out of petrol/running low and messing about at petrol stations is a thing of pure joy.
Anyway, here is a question seeing as we're stuck on the quandary of power...................... how many kwh's would be saved by a reduction in the petroleum industry ?
eg less oil rig production, less helicopter flights, boat flights, less oil pumping, less refinery work, less tankers driving around the country fueling stations ?
one figure I do recall is that an EV can drive 27 miles on the equivalent energy its take to refine a gallon of oil to petrol. Of course the energy you get from oil is not 100% as it is from electric.
Let's not go down that rabbit warren of energy consumption for refining oil whilst ignoring the damage done building your battery packs.
Let's not forget petrol is a byproduct of the oil industry...It's not going to go away unless oil is no longer refined for all the other purposes its byproducts are used for.
otolith said:
Oops, sorry kids, we didn't move away from fossil fuels, but to be fair it wasn't our fault, it was the free market's.
In certain cases, as posted by the hedgehog and the other poster above, EV works for them. The tax breaks incentivised them for going down the EV route but now they are converts and that is all well and good.Now it is up to the EV manufacturers to come up with an option that works for the rest of us and that shouldn't be "fudged" by our half-witted government led by a man who is unable to speak the truth. No-one is calcuating the environmental cost of moving to electric. What about the infrastructure cost both environmental and financial? Latest Mercedes QLC or whatever it is called is inefficient as it is built on a GLC platform and so weighs more than it needs to but it's electric so it's saving the polar bears apparently.
otolith said:
OK - so there is an argument about whether there is an environmental advantage in moving from ICE to electric because of the increased environmental impact of construction versus the decreased impact of use. It's been had. EV is broadly better with a dirty generating mix and massively better with a clean one. So the migration to electric transport needs to be accompanied by decarbonisation of generation, but it's worth doing in itself.
However. That argument doesn't follow anything you said about the market, so I'm not sure why you threw it in there.
If you want the market to deliver, you will have to internalise the externalities - you will have to put the cost of the consequences onto the people doing the polluting. That's difficult to quantify, but it looks as if it is pretty much approximates to £unaffordable. Much like if you said that paying for your sewage to be treated was optional but you'd have to compensate anyone who got cholera.
Or, you do what we do with s
tting into watercourses, and say it's not allowed. Which is what we are doing with this.
I expect the market to deliver by increasing the efficiency of the vehicles - make them as light as possible so that they go further per kWh- and thereby make them a realistic option for more road users. Instead we’re going to see the waste of billions in digging up roads for charging points to mask the range issues.However. That argument doesn't follow anything you said about the market, so I'm not sure why you threw it in there.
If you want the market to deliver, you will have to internalise the externalities - you will have to put the cost of the consequences onto the people doing the polluting. That's difficult to quantify, but it looks as if it is pretty much approximates to £unaffordable. Much like if you said that paying for your sewage to be treated was optional but you'd have to compensate anyone who got cholera.
Or, you do what we do with s
tting into watercourses, and say it's not allowed. Which is what we are doing with this. It’s not all about storage as even a massive battery pack needs to be recharged and there are limitations at home even with a dedicated oven-style circuit at home.
What’s the output like on an EV? As in what current will it allow to be pulled out via the charge socket??
Perhaps we’re looking at this the wrong way.
An EV, charged overnight, could power a swimming pool heater with cheap night time electricity.
What’s the quality of the output ? Presume it is much better than the dirty mains and so could provide a lovely power source for my hifi...
Lighthearted comments aside - if the unique benefits of EV can be used by more people it makes their adoption more likely without government spending / waste.
Mobile defib
Mobile pizza oven
Perhaps we’re looking at this the wrong way.
An EV, charged overnight, could power a swimming pool heater with cheap night time electricity.
What’s the quality of the output ? Presume it is much better than the dirty mains and so could provide a lovely power source for my hifi...
Lighthearted comments aside - if the unique benefits of EV can be used by more people it makes their adoption more likely without government spending / waste.
Mobile defib
Mobile pizza oven
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