Why did people spec auto on performance cars?
Discussion
For many years now (at least 40 years) I've always thought performance cars should have manual gearboxes, we've had tiptronic, auto etc but s/h it's always manual that commands a premium. I just don't understand why anyone buying a performance car with an option of a manual gearbox would not tick that box on a spec sheet?
CanAm said:
I wouldn't have chosen the old Tiptronic boxes, but I can see why people now go for modern automatics.
I reckon that's what happened before though example being a F430 Ferrari, the paddle-shift was seen as the way to go as it was straight off the Formula 1 race cars but as normal that technology gets superseded by something else whilst the good old manual remains the most desirable.It's always funny when you see a manual F430 or 599 pop up with a massive premium and many, many people want them.
Which means real petrolheads really don't like to buy new.
I think its ease of use. A lot of people buying new have it as their only car and auto makes it relaxing. Most performance cars can work as daily drivers now - compared to 25 years ago - where low service intervals and tricky manuals rendered them high day cars.
Which means real petrolheads really don't like to buy new.
I think its ease of use. A lot of people buying new have it as their only car and auto makes it relaxing. Most performance cars can work as daily drivers now - compared to 25 years ago - where low service intervals and tricky manuals rendered them high day cars.
Dog Star said:
Do you still want acetylene lights and a starting handle - and damn those radial tyres - and crossply tyres OP?
Technology moves on. The smoothness and speed of a present day auto box is such that I really cannot see why anyone would want a manual - manufacturers obviously know what they're up to.
For some of us paupers who've saved up their money to buy a nice sunny Sunday car the thought of having to recoup some money on the purchase at some point in the future helps if you've got a sought after variant.Technology moves on. The smoothness and speed of a present day auto box is such that I really cannot see why anyone would want a manual - manufacturers obviously know what they're up to.
Modern performance cars are now so fast, that a manual box feels out of place imo.
In the 90's i had a 306-gti6, that took 25 seconds to get to 100 mph. Today a drive a diesel estate car that does it in 12.
A manual in a fast car just means you spend most of your time in neutral............
In the 90's i had a 306-gti6, that took 25 seconds to get to 100 mph. Today a drive a diesel estate car that does it in 12.
A manual in a fast car just means you spend most of your time in neutral............
I think auto boxes are so much better now that I would personally prefer a performance car with an auto PDK/DSG transmission. Looking back at older Porsche 996/986/987 there is no way I would choose a car with the Tiptronic box.
I think older performance cars with manual boxes sell at a premium as the auto boxes of this era were poor and the manual option was rarer.
There seems to have been a cut over in the last five to ten years were the auto boxes became so good that the manual is seen as the inferior option.
I am 46 now and driving a manual as a daily is becoming more and more of a chore that I suspect the time has come to go for an auto next time.
I think older performance cars with manual boxes sell at a premium as the auto boxes of this era were poor and the manual option was rarer.
There seems to have been a cut over in the last five to ten years were the auto boxes became so good that the manual is seen as the inferior option.
I am 46 now and driving a manual as a daily is becoming more and more of a chore that I suspect the time has come to go for an auto next time.
vikingaero said:
I couldn't care less that someone thinks my car isn't a performance car as it is an auto. It suits my needs.
^^^ This.The handful of PH driving gods who drive their old cars twice a month and make a lot of noise on here don't amount to a row of beans when it comes to a motor industry dependent on real people buying real cars for real lives.
On the technical side, modern autos with full torque management through the driveline protect the car from the ape at the wheel. Engines are massively more powerful than they were 20 years ago. 200 bhp has become 400 bhp. That's enough (translated into torque) to rip clutches and transmissions to pieces.
xjay1337 said:
many Porsches come highly over geared which sort of makes it pointless.
People say this time and again but the ratios are already so close together you skip intermediate gears in normal driving. Also people say 2nd is too different from 1st - but seriously, how often does anyone use 1st gear once a car is rolling? I certainly don't. These cars will pick-up from 25mph in 6th gear if you ask them to, which doesn't sound like excessively long gearing to me. If you shorten the ratios by changing the differential you'll either render some gears completely redundant or spend so much time changing gears you'll end up going more slowly.
Buy a manual Corvette and you don't need any gear shifting at all. 3rd covers 0 -100 mph. Stick it in 4th and you'll be heading on towards 150 mph with several more gears still in hand...
These modern petrol engines pull from low down and will rev their nuts off (for their capacity) giving a huge range of speed in each gear.
What's real rubbish isn't manual and it isn't auto - it's driving a multi-gear auto on the paddles. The idea that a human driver can asses gearchange points better than the computer is fanciful. The auto will work through many more shifts and much more quickly than a human. The real use for paddles is an occasional downshift to prepare for an event the transmission can't see coming, such as an overtake. Beyond that it's best to leave the gearbox to do its own thing.
Regarding 0-60 times and lap times for manual cars it's worth remembering the high levels of mechanical abuse that are required to achieve them, whereas an auto just does the standing starts and puts in the laps while quietly minding its own business.
Regarding 0-60 times and lap times for manual cars it's worth remembering the high levels of mechanical abuse that are required to achieve them, whereas an auto just does the standing starts and puts in the laps while quietly minding its own business.
J4CKO said:
Its a technical triumph, it is so unobtrusive in its operation because it is so clever, it shifts faster, its more economical etc etc.
I prefer a nice manual, its not the ZF8 being bad, its just what I am used to and prefer.
I absolutely agree that's the bottom line. Modern auto's are astoundingly competent. But if you want to change gears yourself - buy a manual. I prefer a nice manual, its not the ZF8 being bad, its just what I am used to and prefer.
donkmeister said:
MGF auto was a pulley CVT (Stepspeed) ... faster than the ... manual in cross-country driving as it could stay at peak power whilst the (manual) was moving up and down the power band.
Same reason cars with modern 7, 8 and 10 speed autos are so quick - they're virtually CVT. These transmissions are particularly well suited for 4-pot turbo engines. And for diesels - which is probably why the transmissions came to exist in the first place. If you've got a limited rev range you can maximise use of the torque by banging in more and faster gear changes.
xjay1337 said:
Exactly - so boring. All helps keep Porsche's value stupidly high. It's OK though, because if you ever bought one with warranty but decided to fit non N Rated tyres to it, or a better battery, your warranty is invalid. Oops.
Sideways and Cerb4.5lee make a couple of sensible observations and then you turn up.Would you like some vinegar with that chip?
xjay1337 said:
That's complete bulls
t and you know it. As I said engine, gearbox , suspension etc no-one is arguing about that. You should NOT be tied into using "consumables" EG tyres and batteries from a particular manufacturer or brand for warranty.
You appear to know very little about modern cars. t and you know it. As I said engine, gearbox , suspension etc no-one is arguing about that. You should NOT be tied into using "consumables" EG tyres and batteries from a particular manufacturer or brand for warranty. 
If you've got more torque you need a stronger clutch and get a heavier pedal - unless you opt for a 3 foot diameter clutch or a foot of pedal travel. You'll never get McLaren power through a Honda Jazz clutch. It's part of the reason there are so few high performance manuals these days.
https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/driv...
https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/driv...
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