Sold clocked car by franchise dealer

[Username...]

Hi again,

The original post has now been removed. I’ve had some very helpful responses, thanks to those people.

I expected a few less than helpful, sarcastic, and smart-arse responses and got them. This is PistonHeads after all. That’s fine.

It can be difficult to know what to expect as recompense in these situations, especially when you’re the person involved. I posted here to help gauge what might be reasonable, because I don’t want to be unreasonable with the dealer. However, at the same time, I want to get the best outcome possible.

I told enough of the story to get what I was after, I think.

Thanks again.

Edited by Username... on Tuesday 14th July 23:24

[Username...]

JulianHJ said:

The issue has come to light after 2 years? How? Could the dealer have reasonably identified the discrepancy at the time they acquired it?

They’ve offered you a refund - is this in full or partial? If it was a full refund What does that cash buy you now? A non-molested example or are you some way short of that?

Hi Julian,

Part of the dealers used car promise is a guarantee on the cars history and a mileage check. They certainly should have picked up on the mileage discrepancy prior to the sale; selling the car means the dealer has broken the law and has undermined the brands own policy.

If I was refunded it would be very difficult to find a replacement. It seems silly, but it's a car I'd only own if bought from a main dealer and with a warranty - something I paid for during my ownership. The cost of out of warranty repairs can be high.

[Username...]

sunbeam alpine said:

If you've had the car a couple of years and you're happy with it, wouldn't it be better to negotiate either a cash settlement to reflect the true milage, or a deal involving free servicing, or a combination of both?

A fair suggestion, but there's a number of problems with this approach. Firstly, BMW want the car back; the matter has been raised with the police and they're pursuing the original owner. Secondly, the car has likely travelled at least 40k miles without a service and oil change. There's history missing now and potentially severe wear and tear to engine internals, turbos, etc. Lastly, the car will clearly be difficult for me to sell later on.

As much as I like it, I just want rid.

[Username...]

mmm-five said:

If they didn't intentionally sell the car with dodgy mileage (i.e. if the information available to them at the time was exactly what you were told), then I'm not sure they've broken the law.

What was the difference between the claimed mileage and the actual mileage? Did you do no due diligence yourself and get an independent HPI report?

If they've offered a partial refund and you don't want that, then what result are you actually expecting from this, a newer/better car at no cost to you?

Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 14th July 17:26

It's the dealers responsibility to carry out due diligence on vehicles they sell. Whether they knew about the alteration is irrelevant. They mis-sold a vehicle.

I have always bought cars privately in the past, in which case I've always done an HPI report. However, this should not be required when buying an approved used car from a main dealer. The HPI report would likely have not picked up on the mileage alteration anyway.

I expect a replacement vehicle. I was clear where I stood financially, so were they - and they offered me a solution, now the franchise group is preventing what the local dealer was apparently prepared to do for me.

Edited by Username... on Tuesday 14th July 17:47

[Username...]

mmm-five said:

If they didn't intentionally sell the car with dodgy mileage (i.e. if the information available to them at the time was exactly what you were told), then I'm not sure they've broken the law.

Was it a very low mileage where 20k made a huge difference, or a high mileage (for a 3 year old car) where 20k isn't that great a difference? Did you do any investigation yourself or get an independent HPI report? Although if fraud was involved (by the original owner, not the dealer) then you'd have very little way of getting true mileage - and the HPI warranty would be void too.

If they've offered a partial refund and you don't want that; you don't want anything they've got at the value they're offering, and want rid of the car, then what result are you actually expecting from this, a newer/better car at no cost to you - or just to completely unwind the deal to 2 years ago and get all your money back (minus an amount for 2 years use).

Is the the 430/435D you were looking at originally, or did you end up going another route?

Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 14th July 17:33

It wasn't this car.

The mileage discrepancy meant that the car had over double the miles than the advert suggested.

[Username...]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

So, why isn't the answer as above?

Because I don't want to be left without a vehicle. I want the dealer to resolve the problem by supplying me with a vehicle as a replacement. This was their own suggestion and was apparently something they were prepared to do, even bearing the additional cost, until "group" were involved.

Essentially, I've been led on and now they're backtracking on what was a deal - in principle.

[Username...]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

A tricky one.

100% if I were the dealer I'd say sorry & buy the car back from you at the value of the unclocked car.. That way there's been no harm done.

The other alternative is for you to keep the car with a discount.

For me (as a previous franchised dealer) I'd think that was very reasonable.

Sometimes in life things don't go 100% to plan.

Thanks for your response.

I can see how that could be considered a reasonable solution. However, in this instance, I'd have no car, some money in the bank, but may not be able to buy the same car again. Even if I could, I'd be looking at paying a premium at the dealer again. It's very likely I'd be a long way out of pocket.

I appreciate this isn't an easy one. My main concern is not being done over and finding myself out of pocket, only having to fork out more of my own cash to put me back into the same or a similar car.

As someone said above. You pay a premium at a dealer for security, piece of mind, and for the best examples of cars for sale. Clearly they've failed on this and I expect them to make up for it now.

[Username...]

maz8062 said:

It seems that you want a car that costs a lot more than yours for practically nothing. You feel that the dealer has let you down and want compensation.

Partly both true, in all honesty. The replacement car doesn't cost "a lot more" than the original sale value of mine. Some more, yes.

The dealer has broken the law and undermined their own policy (or promise) to their customers. I paid a fair amount of cash for my car, which, as it turns out, I could've bought from any back street garage. In my view (obviously) they should recognise that there's some making up to do here.

The point is that the dealer knew my situation (not prepared to pay anything to change car), then introduced me to potential replacements, arranged tests drives, started searching for one on my behalf, then backtracked after their central office got involved.

[Username...]

Jimmy Recard said:

I thought that mis-selling involved deliberately misleading the customer? If that's the case, I can't see that a law was broken, unless there is evidence that the dealer knew about the clocking

To check whether this car had been clocked involves plugging it into a computer. The dealer has been negligent in it's duty to uphold the law when it comes to the sale of vehicles, by failing to do the basic checks.

The mileage discrepancy was found easily by a third party. BMW has no excuse.

[Username...]

I appreciate the responses. Lots a valuable advice and opinions here.

I'll work out the next step - perhaps update you all on the outcome.

[Username...]

ro250 said:

I thought the vast majority of replies we're constructive actually but just maybe not what the OP wanted to hear.

It would help to have answers to some of the follow ups like how was the mileage discrepancy discovered.

It's not the case. I knew I'd get a mixed response and I'm happy with most of the responses that I received. Of course there's a few posts I just rolled my eyes at.

I don't need to verify many of the specific details to anyone here. Precisely how the mileage discrepancy was discovered is not relevant and I specifically don't want to go into too much unnecessary detail. It was discovered, the dealer eventually admitted fault, we're negotiating a solution.

Some people are fishing for the car model; I can see why they would be interested to know, but I cannot mention this, obviously.

A couple of people have obviously trawled through my posting history to try and find out what the car is. They're not correct.

A few people seem to want to put me under the interrogation lamp; I'm not going to interact with them.

As mentioned, I feel that my original post gave enough detail to get viewpoints from the sensible people of PistonHeads. I've reflected and my own view has changed a little. It's perhaps not easy to be balanced when you're initially pissed off at a situation.

I agree, the majority of replies were helpful and I'm appreciative of that - thanks.

Edited by Username... on Wednesday 15th July 09:46