911 (997) Turbo upgraded and tuned by DMS - excellent result

[Isysman]

Hi all,

I'm pretty nervous of posting here as some can be brutal!

Anyway wanted to share my video with you. Took my car to DMS in Southampton last week and had a series of mods done to my car. This included:

Kline Innovation exhaust system with 200 cell cats
BMC air filter
GT2RS INtercoolers
And finally a DMS remap followed by runs on their dyno.

I'm sure you'll agree I got good results!

http://youtu.be/VoLiNAyysbY

Anyone tell me how to embed YouTube videos?

Edited by Isysman on Tuesday 13th May 11:09

[Isysman]

Interesting. I've gone back to DMS to see what they make of your information. I read the article, very interesting also, would suggest the figures are somewhat optimistic. Hopefully I'll get clarification. If not I'll have it put on another rolling road and see what power output it comes up with.

[Isysman]

Adam B said:

mind me asking what each bit cost?

does it bring the turbo kick in earlier or just increase the size of the kick?

The kick comes at about 3,000 rpm like a kick up the arse. Much more aggressive than before. It accelerates so fast now that my speedo seems to have trouble keeping up! The beep I have set at 95mph sounds whilst the speedo still reads 91mph! (On a closed track of course!) a second later the image pops up with 95 in the circle!

Edited by Isysman on Tuesday 13th May 22:02

[Isysman]

IMI A said:

Love the wheels. How much did the wheel upgrade cost with CL if you do not mind me asking?

Back to the dyno result, Have you upgraded the turbos too? If not 621bhp highly unlikely on stock vtgs -very good independent test here http://www.parr-uk.co.uk/media/pdf/performance-rev... of DMS vs others but you'll note even with upgraded DMS VTG turbos DMS are only claiming 605bhp. DMS advertise a kit with upgraded turbos for about £10k + vat but no mention of new turbos in your first post. On stock turbos anywhere between 530-550bhp possible with a remap and zorst.

0-300kph for stock car is 40 secs. You need to go to Brunters VMAX and see what your car does. 620bhp should be good for 30-35 secs I guess depending on conditions. Enjoy!!!

Conversion kit available from Porsche for 997 turbo only. If your car has PCCBs it's £1200 if not it costs more because you have to change the discs (which are included in that kit). Not sure how much that kit costs.

Labour for fitting was 11 hours labour. I had it done at OPC Wilmslow, and believe it or not they were cheaper than independents. Also wanted OPC to carry out work so they couldn't try to say it wasn't done properly if I ever had any issues with the car relating to the CLs.

Then of course there's the cost of the wheels!

Edited by Isysman on Tuesday 13th May 22:00

[Isysman]

RAWENG said:

I fitted the Kline innovation to my 997.1T and am very pleased with it, the engine is much more responsive and the exhaust makes a nice sound without being too noisy. £1800 inc vat for the exhaust is good value, re map £350

Yeah it sounds great the Kline. Where did you buy it for that price? I thought they were about £2,100?

[Isysman]

_gez_ said:

Don't get hung up on the numbers. I'm sure at the outset you didn't ask DMS for 621hp but you asked for a remap. You can be certain that you have a remapped car and so long as you are happy with how it goes on the road then just be happy. Don't waste your money on further rolling road sessions.

I know what you mean but I'm writing a couple of articles on the work for two different magazines so I need to have accurate numbers. It's certainly a lot faster than before so I'm completely happy with it regardless.

[Isysman]

Adam B said:

Hi how does that price compare to the other options? And who did the remap for £350? Suspect DMS is more like £1k

Yes the remap at £350 doesn't sound right. DMS remap is £1500 which seems to be in line with other tuning companies I've researched.

Some of the exhausts I've seen are as much as £4,000 Tech9 in Liverpool charges £3,800 for their exhaust but I think it's switchable but still not worth twice the money. The a Kline system is beautiful as well, great engineering.

Edited by Isysman on Tuesday 13th May 23:36

[Isysman]

s3nick said:

Unfortunately the Kline is not a great exhaust system I have seen pictures of their cheap cats falling apart on other forums so be aware hence why they are cheaper than other systems because proper cats cost a lot of money. Also a £350 remap is asking for trouble.

Interesting, do you have any links? I did quite a bit of research on these exhausts but never found any threads about stuff falling apart. Their exhausts are made from 304 grade stainless steel and are TUV approved. Also they make a system from Inconel, which is used to make turbine blades in jet engines and F1 cars have their exhausts made from it. These exhausts come with a 99 year warranty!

Also could have been early exhausts. Doesn't mean they have the same problems now. I read on a few forums that owners of GT3s had their cars bursting into flames. I'm sure that doesn't mean they all will.

[Isysman]

s3nick said:

I will try and find it for you but I have seen it on 6speedonline if you want to take a look. Inconel anyone can buy Inconel so this does not mean anything to me.

Anyone can buy pretty much any material, it's what they make it into that is the hard part. As far as I know they are the only exhaust manufacturer making Inconel exhausts systems for Porsche. And those systems are in line with the price of stainless systems by other companies. They also make titanium if people want them.

[Isysman]

Adam B said:

Hmmm can't justify spending that sort of money on an exhaust. Almost 10% of the cars value. The remap prices are also a bit of a joke considering they are generic AFAIK (provided car is running ok as stock), and R&D cost well covered by now - seem to suffer from Porsche tax

I wouldn't pay £4,000 either. The Kline system is about £2,000

[Isysman]

s3nick said:

They are not the only people that make Inconel systems for Porsche go back and do your research. Titanium is a no go for me unless you want to be welding the darn thing every 5 mins.

Here you go. Post #83.

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/3...

That car was running 700 hp. I think it's more to do with that than the quality of the exhaust system.

Also that's one person and with 100 cell cats. Mine are 200 cell. Also The guy from a Kline was on there telling him it's covered under warranty.

Edited by Isysman on Wednesday 14th May 00:21

[Isysman]

s3nick said:

Nope that is not an excuse. There are plenty of cars that run that kind of horsepower and more with cats.

Ok so one person had an issue. That doesn't mean it's a bad manufacturer.

[Isysman]

s3nick said:

The bottom line is they are using cheap cats in their systems. They now offer a HJS cat which obviously helps but also raises the price.

Also another thing about the Kline system is it uses 63.5mm tubing and most exhaust manufacturers who know how to get power out of the cars use 70mm which again would increase the price.

Ok so you won't be buying one, I get it.

[Isysman]

s3nick said:

Definitely not. I have been following the Porsche tuning scene since 2005 so I know who I would go with and who I would not.

The only thing that upsets me is when people like yourself with a nice car go and spend your hard earned doe on junk without realising just to save a few bob.

Ok that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But I'd rather you started your own thread than hijacking mine which was about more than just the exhaust. Thanks

[Isysman]

s3nick said:

Well unfortunately this is the internet and when you post things on a forum people come along and comment.

As far as I can see you have posted about an exhaust and a remap and I am sorry but it is impossible to get 620hp out of stock turbos. Another thing I would like to mention is that you have not mentioned a clutch upgrade and if you had the kind of power and torque you had mentioned then your clutch would have melted by now. This is not a hi jack this is valid info.

Thanks.

You were just bashing the The Kline exhaust and generally on forums people observe the original posters subject and the thread is not about wether or not the Kline is good or bad. You based your bashing on one post in one thread, of someone saying they had an issue. The company had offered to replace under warranty. Also 304 stainless is aircraft grade and is the industry standard also used by Dansk and Miltek (also 63.5mm). The Miltek is used by Audi on the R8 and other cars. You've offered no evidence that the Kline is a poor exhaust, you've just given your opinion because you've 'followed tuning since 2005' meaning you've been reading about it. I'm sure you have your favourite, maybe you even work for them. Or maybe you bought a Kline exhaust and had a bad experience?

The results I posted were shown to me as they ran the dyno tests as seen in the video and I included them in my video. I'll follow up with further rolling road test to confirm the power of the car.

Edited by Isysman on Wednesday 14th May 02:08

[Isysman]

s3nick said:

They are meant to be but are they?

I dont think they are.

Have you been to Bucharest to see this for yourself?

P.S. Are you that gullible that you believe everything you hear and read?

Edited by s3nick on Wednesday 14th May 10:09

Show us more examples of the exhaust being as bad as you mention. You've shown one issue, the company offered to replace it as the exhaust comes with a 4 year warranty. Other people on the same thread were saying they were happy with their Kline exhaust.

Apparently you've never had one, but you talk like you are an expert, where does this knowledge come from? I don't claim to be an expert, I have no affiliation, I am always researching before writing any article. So feedback on many issues with a particular exhaust manufacturer (which I was unable to find before choosing them) would be useful information.

Also if you work in the industry or make exhausts for a profession then maybe I can interview you about what makes a good exhaust? So I'll happily listen to what you have to say. But you need to back it up with evidence. Email me your credentials and a contact number and we'll chat. You have seemingly very strong views on this company, if I suspect they are unfounded then I'm sure I won't hear from you but I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

Edited by Isysman on Wednesday 14th May 11:32

[Isysman]

RAWENG said:

Kline innovation exhausts are retailed by Topgear of Bridport www.topgear.co.uk. Topgear own Kline who manufacture the exhausts in Bucharest. Top Gear MD Stephen Kilcoin has a 997.1T and has run with a Kilne installed for years, I think he had done 80k miles last time I spoke with him. The exhaust is currently £1800 inc vat and if purchased through top gear entitles you to £350 half price re-map . The exhaust can be installed at one of Topgears branches. I wish to state that I am in no way connected with Topgear or Kline just a satisfied customer.

s3nick its always interesting to hear another point of view , however just bashing a product that you have no personal experience of and simply read some bad on line postings can be very damaging to a business. Several negative postings from a person such as your good self can trash a perfectly good product and waste all the time and effort in developing it and its market.

In my view the Kline is a well made product. I fitted the system myself and it fitted perfectly. I found both Topgear and Felix at Kline easy to contact and helpful and am confident that the backup is there should I have a problem. I am also aware that each Cat unit can easily be replaced in 15 minutes should a problem occur as they un bolt from the system independently , simples.

I have also used DMS for diesel tuning and know them to be a totally professional company. However I also have a lot of rolling road experience and know that a rolling road result can be +/- 20% of actual peak power. Kline also has some power plots on its website and IIRC they quote +73bhp and 55ib ft for their system using 200 cell cats and High flow air filter and a re-map. Upgrading the intercoolers must give a tad more but I have no experience of this.

Was your car put on a rolling road afterwards? Did you upgrade anything else (air filter, intercoolers)? What was the claimed power after the remap? I think I read 559bhp from Kline?

[Isysman]

IMI A said:

Nick is very knowledgeable indeed and has helped quite a few guys out with modding their cars. His internet manner can be abrupt at times but he's as nice as pie! He's managed to annoy the guys at Europipe too so its not only Kline. Europipe also make exhausts which many say are market leaders for the 997 turbo so pls do not be offended!

The tuning industry is shark infested and many companies out there making unrealistic claims re HP. I'd be surprised if your car is making more than 550bhp. Best way to asses horsepower is take it to brunters and measure 0-300kph as mentioned before. Have a look at VMAX events

I understand what you're saying however I'll put more value into what he's saying if he can A prove he's an expert in this field, or B show me evidence of what he's claiming. If he can't do either of those things then he's just offering his opinion as fact. The Internet if full of that. And as they say, opinions are like ahem, back bottoms, everyone has one.

His main gripes seemed to be their use of 304 stainless steel and a diameter of 63mm. I put it to him that 304 type stainless is used in the aerospace industry (where I used to work - military). Also that other well respected and long time businesses like Miltek use the same metal and dimensions. He doesn't claim to have any issues with Miltek, if not why not?

As for me, like I said, I'll get to the bottom of my car's power output, and I'll post the results on my YouTube page alongside the previous video. Because I'm happy to be proved wrong if that is indeed what I am. I'll always defer to experts in an area that I am not.

[Isysman]

RAWENG said:

Isysman. Only BMS filter and zorst fitted and No I have not had the opportunity to get the car on the rolling road, my guess is its about 520bhp I also hate watching the rolling road process. I build new engines for Caterham customers and then have to watch them been mapped and this usually ends up with numerous full rpm power runs to fine tune the map and valve timing to satisfy the customer. Without a generic map we have to start with a base map then develop a map to suit the spec of the engine, everything gets very hot and usually burns out all the exhaust packing. I am always nervous when an engine is a full rpm on a rolling road or dyno as it sounds so cruel but in use I appreciate that it will be required to hold together at these revs for half a lap time and time again. On a typical track day its normal to complete at least 5 X 20min sessions and at least 6 track days per year, that a lotta revs.

Did you notice a huge difference in power output after these mods?

[Isysman]

Nineexcellence said:

The exhaust is without doubt the first upgrade on any VTG turbo. In an ideal world running catless would provide the best result, but MOT restrictions today prevent this.

Therefore the most free flowing exhaust will produce the best performance results. There is a misconception that 100 cell cats, or even 200 cell cats are all the same, even if produced by the same company. That is not true. 100 Cell cats example from HKS can come in different flavours depending on power requirements.

There are many 100 cell exhausts with silencers that also after 1000 miles are not the same as before the 1000 miles. Cats can range in price from £100 to nearly £1000. This is one of the difference in price in exhaust systems.

The best exhaust is the one that helps reduce back pressure the most, which contributes to increase in temps. Timing is a major problem with VTGs in terms of too much ignition and boost.

In terms of tuning, we never put our cars on a dyno - simply there is too much variation and it is not practical in getting airflow and frankly dyno numbers (except engine dyno runs) are for pub talk. All that matters is how the car drives under full load and that can be experienced by as some mentioned by attending Vmax etc.

Enjoy the car and don't worry about dyno numbers.

Ken

Thanks for the information, it's very interesting stuff. As far as how the car runs now, it's fantastic, lots more power and a great soundtrack, today was the first time ever since buying my Turbo that I drove with no music and the windows down just to listen to the exhaust note, really enjoyable.

The only reason I'd want to get it back on a rolling road would be for the article, whether it's important or not, it certainly is required for a magazine article as people need to be able to quantify any changes/gains.