997 Turbo or 997 Turbo S?
Discussion
I'm in the market for an OPC 997 Turbo S.
There is a slow trickle of these through OPCs however prices are very high and I'm exploring the two cars either side of the 997 Turbo S - namely the 997 Turbo and the 991 Turbo.
The two questions I have are
1. Dynamically is a 997 Turbo with PTV and Chrono pack that includes dynamic engine mounts arguably the same as a marginally less boosted Turbo S? (Not withstanding the other cosmetic standard options like PCCB that come with the Turbo S).
2. Is a 991 Turbo (with PDCC) comparable in performance and dynamics to the 997 Turbo S?
I guess what's driving the questions is that low mileage OPC Turbo S cars are commanding such high prices (even after I have allowed for the OPC premium which I'm happy to accept) and I am questioning whether the two cars in the range either side of the 997 Turbo S are in fact better value £ for £.
Also I know it is pointless to look at trade prices (except to see what you'd get in a distress sale) but still a Turbo S that's offered for £80k/£85k is a £62k car in the trade... although I accept a gap in value between trade and retail (especially at OPC) £20k is a pretty big gap that will track against depreciation for some time.
Any thoughts / perspectives on my questions appreciated.
There is a slow trickle of these through OPCs however prices are very high and I'm exploring the two cars either side of the 997 Turbo S - namely the 997 Turbo and the 991 Turbo.
The two questions I have are
1. Dynamically is a 997 Turbo with PTV and Chrono pack that includes dynamic engine mounts arguably the same as a marginally less boosted Turbo S? (Not withstanding the other cosmetic standard options like PCCB that come with the Turbo S).
2. Is a 991 Turbo (with PDCC) comparable in performance and dynamics to the 997 Turbo S?
I guess what's driving the questions is that low mileage OPC Turbo S cars are commanding such high prices (even after I have allowed for the OPC premium which I'm happy to accept) and I am questioning whether the two cars in the range either side of the 997 Turbo S are in fact better value £ for £.
Also I know it is pointless to look at trade prices (except to see what you'd get in a distress sale) but still a Turbo S that's offered for £80k/£85k is a £62k car in the trade... although I accept a gap in value between trade and retail (especially at OPC) £20k is a pretty big gap that will track against depreciation for some time.
Any thoughts / perspectives on my questions appreciated.
Edited by sasha320 on Sunday 19th March 08:08
Thanks, good post. I buy your logic and I am in the same position you were and share your feelings about the 991.
The Tonbridge car, although it is as good as it gets, is just too expensive for me (I know many roll their eyes at having a £5k sensitivity at a £80k price point).
They have added a premium for the car's age (2012) on top of all the other premiums that OPCs add.
I foolishly let a 2010 £78k Turbo S in Meteor Grey at West London OPC go earlier in the week because I procrastinated for 24hours (I wont make that mistake again).
That said, if the Tonbridge car is still there when I get back from Switzerland next week, I won't be able to resist going to see it and once I see it... :0)
Oh I do want a 997 Turbo S!
The Tonbridge car, although it is as good as it gets, is just too expensive for me (I know many roll their eyes at having a £5k sensitivity at a £80k price point).
They have added a premium for the car's age (2012) on top of all the other premiums that OPCs add.
I foolishly let a 2010 £78k Turbo S in Meteor Grey at West London OPC go earlier in the week because I procrastinated for 24hours (I wont make that mistake again).
That said, if the Tonbridge car is still there when I get back from Switzerland next week, I won't be able to resist going to see it and once I see it... :0)
Oh I do want a 997 Turbo S!
Congrats Jabbah, very nice motor you got there.
Yes the only downside of that car for me too was not having centre locks, but that wasn't the reason for procrastination and I think ultimately 5 hole wheels will win on convenience after a few years of tyre / winter wheel swaps.
The Tonbridge car is on Autotrader.
Yes the only downside of that car for me too was not having centre locks, but that wasn't the reason for procrastination and I think ultimately 5 hole wheels will win on convenience after a few years of tyre / winter wheel swaps.
The Tonbridge car is on Autotrader.
The Tonbridge car has gone.
That car was as good as it gets, 2012 model, low miles, well optioned and in truth I bottled it at that price.
So should have gone for Jabbah's car :0)
Aside from price, my hesitation was also driven by the fact that I bought a pre-facelift 958 Cayenne Turbo S and now wish I had bought a facelift Turbo.
Not quite the same thing but I still haven't discounted a 997 Turbo with PTV and Chrono pack as being a potential way forward given my emerging price sensitivity!
There are few Turbos for £58k to £65k from dealers that I could push for an OPC 111 point check presale and sort out my own warranty.
Anyways thanks to all who contributed to this post, really appreciate it!
That car was as good as it gets, 2012 model, low miles, well optioned and in truth I bottled it at that price.
So should have gone for Jabbah's car :0)
Aside from price, my hesitation was also driven by the fact that I bought a pre-facelift 958 Cayenne Turbo S and now wish I had bought a facelift Turbo.
Not quite the same thing but I still haven't discounted a 997 Turbo with PTV and Chrono pack as being a potential way forward given my emerging price sensitivity!
There are few Turbos for £58k to £65k from dealers that I could push for an OPC 111 point check presale and sort out my own warranty.
Anyways thanks to all who contributed to this post, really appreciate it!
Edited by sasha320 on Tuesday 21st March 09:10
Thanks to everyone for all your replies and commentary.
I'm still listening but taking a step back.
The last post from Carl W6 is exactly what I was assuming at the start of the post.
(Admitedly Carl's comparison is between a 997.1 TT Tip and 997.2 TTS PDK rather than an Turbo S with a 997.2 TT PDK non-S where I think the gap may be smaller).
BUT the point still resonates between the Turbo Gen 2 S and non-S.
Maybe I'm being a badge snob if a non-S car has PTV, Engine mounts, centre lock and PCCB (see the 911 Virgin car)? If so, all that then separates the 911 Virgin car from a Turbo S is the permanent extra turbo boost?
Anyway, the holding position right now is to wait for another OPC Turbo S at the same price point or less than Jabbah's MG* car. I may wait a long time and it may never happen (or prices increase) but I've come to the conclusion that for me this purchase needs to be perfect because it is a second car.
I'm still listening but taking a step back.
The last post from Carl W6 is exactly what I was assuming at the start of the post.
(Admitedly Carl's comparison is between a 997.1 TT Tip and 997.2 TTS PDK rather than an Turbo S with a 997.2 TT PDK non-S where I think the gap may be smaller).
BUT the point still resonates between the Turbo Gen 2 S and non-S.
Maybe I'm being a badge snob if a non-S car has PTV, Engine mounts, centre lock and PCCB (see the 911 Virgin car)? If so, all that then separates the 911 Virgin car from a Turbo S is the permanent extra turbo boost?
Anyway, the holding position right now is to wait for another OPC Turbo S at the same price point or less than Jabbah's MG* car. I may wait a long time and it may never happen (or prices increase) but I've come to the conclusion that for me this purchase needs to be perfect because it is a second car.
- even the MG car didn't have centre locks which Jabbah may have agonised over briefly! I think I would have!
It is an interesting market for sure.
My price ceiling for an OPC 997 Turbo S has been exceeded and so I'm out until prices move downwards.
What is starting to encroach on the top end of 997 Turbo S prices are 991 Turbos and 991 GTS's.
It remains to be seen whether the low mileage 997 Turbo S's will stay where they are (as an enthusiast's car) when 991 prices start to overlap.
My point being that this time next year either 997 Turbo S's are going to be dearer than 991 Turbos, or 997 Turbo S's are due for a price adjustment.
I can't make a call so I'll wait until 991's come into my price range (there are too many of them to hold their price for too long) and see if I have a choice between one of them or a 997 Turbo S.
All of that said, yet again I watch 'the trade' enjoy significantly marking up cars; a speed yellow Turbo S came on AT a few weeks ago with a private seller for £75k, hung around for a bit and then disappeared, only to reappear (I think it was the same car) at a specialist dealer for £85k.
Fair play to the dealer, but equally the margin between trade and retail on these cars is also off putting. I'm generally not convinced by the amount of prep non-OPC dealers claim to put into the cars especially in the area of the warranty. Although experiences vary, I generally feel you could get somewhere with an OPC in the event of a grave issue with the car (which combined with the OPC warranty starts to make the OPC purchase different enough to justify the premium).
In fact I'd argue that non-OPC dealers are only marginally more secure than a well orchestrated private sale.
But to be clear, if I was a dealer I'd be doing exactly the same and this post is purely based sour grapes!!!! (Moreso for not moving on the Meteor Grey 997 Turbo S a couple of months ago!)
My price ceiling for an OPC 997 Turbo S has been exceeded and so I'm out until prices move downwards.
What is starting to encroach on the top end of 997 Turbo S prices are 991 Turbos and 991 GTS's.
It remains to be seen whether the low mileage 997 Turbo S's will stay where they are (as an enthusiast's car) when 991 prices start to overlap.
My point being that this time next year either 997 Turbo S's are going to be dearer than 991 Turbos, or 997 Turbo S's are due for a price adjustment.
I can't make a call so I'll wait until 991's come into my price range (there are too many of them to hold their price for too long) and see if I have a choice between one of them or a 997 Turbo S.
All of that said, yet again I watch 'the trade' enjoy significantly marking up cars; a speed yellow Turbo S came on AT a few weeks ago with a private seller for £75k, hung around for a bit and then disappeared, only to reappear (I think it was the same car) at a specialist dealer for £85k.
Fair play to the dealer, but equally the margin between trade and retail on these cars is also off putting. I'm generally not convinced by the amount of prep non-OPC dealers claim to put into the cars especially in the area of the warranty. Although experiences vary, I generally feel you could get somewhere with an OPC in the event of a grave issue with the car (which combined with the OPC warranty starts to make the OPC purchase different enough to justify the premium).
In fact I'd argue that non-OPC dealers are only marginally more secure than a well orchestrated private sale.
But to be clear, if I was a dealer I'd be doing exactly the same and this post is purely based sour grapes!!!! (Moreso for not moving on the Meteor Grey 997 Turbo S a couple of months ago!)
Sorry, I was referring to the 991 Turbo, not 991 Turbo S.
I can see a rationale where a low mileage 997 Turbo S (maybe with some OPC warranty left) had a higher price than a 991 Turbo (exclusivity, hydraulic steering, more options, centre locks, acceleration etc. underpinning that rationale), however I am assuming that there thousands of 991 Turbos and Turbo S's.
I can see a rationale where a low mileage 997 Turbo S (maybe with some OPC warranty left) had a higher price than a 991 Turbo (exclusivity, hydraulic steering, more options, centre locks, acceleration etc. underpinning that rationale), however I am assuming that there thousands of 991 Turbos and Turbo S's.
Prices for 997 Turbo S' are seemingly bonkers.
That said, I'm not sure what the value of actual deals being done are, maybe there's plenty of room to negotiate.
An update from me, as the price of a 991 Turbo S is within the range of the pricier 997 Turbo S cars I'd rather have one of those.
All of that said, I hired a Huracan for the day recently and although it was great (really great), it put me off small sports cars. I can go into why another time.
So for now, I'm out.
(But would have been happy with Jabbah's Meteor Grey Turbo S!!!
That said, I'm not sure what the value of actual deals being done are, maybe there's plenty of room to negotiate.
An update from me, as the price of a 991 Turbo S is within the range of the pricier 997 Turbo S cars I'd rather have one of those.
All of that said, I hired a Huracan for the day recently and although it was great (really great), it put me off small sports cars. I can go into why another time.
So for now, I'm out.
(But would have been happy with Jabbah's Meteor Grey Turbo S!!!
I don't wish to be a bore about prices, but at the end of the day for most buyers (deffo including me) price is a consideration and this gap between trade and retail on a 99x Turbo S is starting to grate.
I understand traders need to make a profit etc but taking in a low mileage car for £50k to £60k and retailing it for £90k is a 'healthy' profit without a great deal of risk.
Fine, this is a market economy and that's the way it goes; but when you immerse yourself into it, you start to sense the shadows of a small number of buying cartels that are manipulating price and playing on the ignorance of both buyers and private sellers.
Without regulation (which would be a bad thing) one just has to accept the situation.
Although as an enthusiast I recognise the differences between the 997 Turbo S and 991 Turbo S, I am not sure there are so many buyers who would take a 997 Turbo S over a 991 Turbo S at the same or lower price.
So I am waiting for a price correction on the 997 Turbo S! (Notwithstanding previous posts about small sports cars).
I shouldn't complain really as the above considerations do not apply in the majority of mass produced performance cars and furthermore we've never been able to get into such good secondhand metal at such low prices it is a shame that the car I like is smack in the middle of this 'conspiracy'!!!!! :0)
I understand traders need to make a profit etc but taking in a low mileage car for £50k to £60k and retailing it for £90k is a 'healthy' profit without a great deal of risk.
Fine, this is a market economy and that's the way it goes; but when you immerse yourself into it, you start to sense the shadows of a small number of buying cartels that are manipulating price and playing on the ignorance of both buyers and private sellers.
Without regulation (which would be a bad thing) one just has to accept the situation.
Although as an enthusiast I recognise the differences between the 997 Turbo S and 991 Turbo S, I am not sure there are so many buyers who would take a 997 Turbo S over a 991 Turbo S at the same or lower price.
So I am waiting for a price correction on the 997 Turbo S! (Notwithstanding previous posts about small sports cars).
I shouldn't complain really as the above considerations do not apply in the majority of mass produced performance cars and furthermore we've never been able to get into such good secondhand metal at such low prices it is a shame that the car I like is smack in the middle of this 'conspiracy'!!!!! :0)
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