991.1 GT3-RS: GOOD TIME TO BUY...??
Discussion
Hi all..... As a current owner of a GT4, I’ve been watching the market closely over the past couple of years with a view to moving up the “Porsche GT ladder”.... As I’ve never been fortunate/butt sucking enough, I very much doubt a spanky new GT car allocation will come my way anytime soon, so I’ve resigned myself to the “used” GT car buying experience.... My GT4 was a used purchase, bought at at a time when I felt these beauties were “plateauing out” a little at not hugely over list, and the right car came along at the right time....
Now I find myself in much the same position regarding the 991.1 GT3 & 3RS..... With the recent releases of the 2nd Gen models of both GT cars, I’ve been watching the market closely and deciding when best to “make the jump”..... I’m not willing to pay £40k overs for the new GT3, so am looking primarily at both the 1st Gen GT3 and the 3RS.... My question to all of you forum experts— who generally seem to have a close finger on the pulse of all things Porsche, and whom I have huge respect for in terms of both passion and knowledge— is twofold....
First— Do you think either car (GT3 or GT3RS) has much further to fall, especially with summer just around the corner...!!
Second— Which would be the better long-term investment....?? I know that these cars are there to be “driven” and— 25k heavenly miles into my GT4— I’m most certainly a proponent of this philosophy.....!! But.... I’m also not made of money (I know, I know: 1st World problems..!!), and would like the best “return” for my investment a few years down the line, when my children will most likely inherit the car themselves....!!
To those who say “get the car you enjoy the most”, I would answer that I have driven both, and completely fallen for both during my time behind the wheel....!! This makes the decision that bit more difficult.... I also can— just about— afford either, despite the RS being a bit of a “push”.....!! I drive on both track and road 50:50, so that also doesn’t make the decision any easier...!! Ultimately, I’m looking for views as to which car— in the current market— is the best “value for money”......
Apologies for the mega-long post— but it’s been a mega-long decision making process...!! And I feel it’s time I heard some well respected views of owners/experts, other than those spouted by the motoring press...!!
Opinions on a postcard please...?!?
Dave
Now I find myself in much the same position regarding the 991.1 GT3 & 3RS..... With the recent releases of the 2nd Gen models of both GT cars, I’ve been watching the market closely and deciding when best to “make the jump”..... I’m not willing to pay £40k overs for the new GT3, so am looking primarily at both the 1st Gen GT3 and the 3RS.... My question to all of you forum experts— who generally seem to have a close finger on the pulse of all things Porsche, and whom I have huge respect for in terms of both passion and knowledge— is twofold....
First— Do you think either car (GT3 or GT3RS) has much further to fall, especially with summer just around the corner...!!
Second— Which would be the better long-term investment....?? I know that these cars are there to be “driven” and— 25k heavenly miles into my GT4— I’m most certainly a proponent of this philosophy.....!! But.... I’m also not made of money (I know, I know: 1st World problems..!!), and would like the best “return” for my investment a few years down the line, when my children will most likely inherit the car themselves....!!
To those who say “get the car you enjoy the most”, I would answer that I have driven both, and completely fallen for both during my time behind the wheel....!! This makes the decision that bit more difficult.... I also can— just about— afford either, despite the RS being a bit of a “push”.....!! I drive on both track and road 50:50, so that also doesn’t make the decision any easier...!! Ultimately, I’m looking for views as to which car— in the current market— is the best “value for money”......
Apologies for the mega-long post— but it’s been a mega-long decision making process...!! And I feel it’s time I heard some well respected views of owners/experts, other than those spouted by the motoring press...!!
Opinions on a postcard please...?!?
Dave
Cheers for the replies thus far guys.....
Yes— I’m put off the 991.1 GT3 because of the engine “issues” and, like 911R says, when the 10 yr engine warranty comes to an end these cars may be a hard sell....!!
I’m also a manual guy, and will miss this the most I think on a PDK car— however slick the new auto box may be..... I’ve loooked at paying overs for a 2nd Gen manual GT3, but the least I’m going to be paying is around £40k overs atm.... In contrast, there are 2 pretty highly specced 3RSs currently on Pistonheads (one even at an OPC...!!) currently going for around the £180k mark— a lot closer to original list price.... It wasn’t long ago that these would have been priced nearer the £200k mark....!!
And yes 911R, you’re totally right regarding the “investment” side of things— they will all fall— in fact, I NEVER buy cars as investments because I love to drive them too much, so rack up the miles far too much to be a successful “speculator”.... However, I guess I just want to put my money where it’s likely to lose the least in the future, especially as it’s most likely my children who will eventually “inherit” my cars...!!
Yes— I’m put off the 991.1 GT3 because of the engine “issues” and, like 911R says, when the 10 yr engine warranty comes to an end these cars may be a hard sell....!!
I’m also a manual guy, and will miss this the most I think on a PDK car— however slick the new auto box may be..... I’ve loooked at paying overs for a 2nd Gen manual GT3, but the least I’m going to be paying is around £40k overs atm.... In contrast, there are 2 pretty highly specced 3RSs currently on Pistonheads (one even at an OPC...!!) currently going for around the £180k mark— a lot closer to original list price.... It wasn’t long ago that these would have been priced nearer the £200k mark....!!
And yes 911R, you’re totally right regarding the “investment” side of things— they will all fall— in fact, I NEVER buy cars as investments because I love to drive them too much, so rack up the miles far too much to be a successful “speculator”.... However, I guess I just want to put my money where it’s likely to lose the least in the future, especially as it’s most likely my children who will eventually “inherit” my cars...!!
Porsche911R said:
I would be more tempted in a 430BHP GT4 with a few mods.
This may well be the route i go down tbh.... My biggest concern with this one is losing the Porsche Warranty, which is defo one of the better Warranty packages out there....!! Hence trying to find a “stock” GT Porsche with the high-revving, shorter gearing set-up that the GT4 should have always had from the outset....!! Both the GT3 and GT3RS seem to fit the bill, although at great cost...!!Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 13th March 09:14
v8ksn said:
If your budget stretches to a 991.1 RS get a 991.2 GT3 Touring (with the manual gearbox) Not only is it a more involving car to drive (subjective opinion of course) it will retain a greater portion of its value that either of the 991.1 variants for the reasons stated above.
^^^ Yes— I tend to agree with this, and am on the lookout....!! Trouble is finding one...!! I guess the “Touring Pack” will make up only a small percentage of the Gen2 GT3s, and then finding one with manual transmission as well feels like searching for the proverbial “needle in a haystack”....!! Hopefully something will pop up soon, preferably before winter hits...!!JulierPass said:
On values, given your mileage and usage, I would opt for one of the 9,000 ish mile examples from an OPC. Just make sure it has a leather dash, axle lift and ceramics. My research led me to believe these were must-haves if you want to move it on quickly later down the line. It will make more financial sense given the mileage you intend to do. I reckon if you bought a good car for 180K and put 15 k miles on it you should expect to get 145k for it come trade-in time. That may seem like a lot, but I've lost money on every new GT / RS car I've bought up until recently and I've been buying them for 20 years!
Buy it, use and enjoy it. The price of the enjoyment is what it is, but it is well worth it. Good luck with it.
Yep.... This is pretty much my line of thinking at the mo... What a bloody shame that these beauties get “devalued” so ridiculously for being used “as intended” (ie. actually DRIVEN).... It’s not like the motors can’t handle a bit of flippin mileage....!! I had a 987 Boxster a few years back that had 120k on the clock when I came to sell it...!! Never had ANY issues with it....Buy it, use and enjoy it. The price of the enjoyment is what it is, but it is well worth it. Good luck with it.
Anyways.... On the subject of used “high mileage” 3RSs, I’ve been looking at these 2 in particular..... (I’m a huge fan of white on any GT car....!)... Any opinions/thoughts would be much appreciated....!
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Again— mega thanks for all the input so far.... I continually find it incredulous that OPC staff (in general) seem to either know so little about—or have such little passion for— these machines, whereas Porsche forum members know so much....!! So ironic really.... I still remember when i test drove the 991.1 GTS a few years ago, the OPC salesman didn’t know how to operate the electronic handbrake....!! Didn’t particularly inspire me with confidence......
Dammit said:
Best case scenario is a recession twice as bad as the last financial crash- for London. Head North East and it gets pretty dire. We are in for trouble, shortly.
Bloody hell— I think I might need some Prozac to go with my morning latte...!! I was feeling quite chipper before I read that post...!! I’m no financial expert, so unable to comment on the likelihood of such catastrophic fiscal events, however: if such a financial crash does happen, i’ll probs have more pressing concerns than just my cars....!!
RSVP— What a stunner....!! Yep— you’ve certainly got me reconsidering whether the 991 model is necessarily the best option here.... As a die-hard manual shift lover— and someone who REALLY misses the “tactility” of my 987 Spyder (should have never sold that car...!!), the 997.2 RS does tick many of the boxes.....
There is currently one at PPM, although it does seem a tad overpriced atm, considering 911 Sport sold an almost identical car for £10k less recently.... Although it is pretty gorgeous...!!
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
I’ll keep pondering— first world problems and all that...!! That is, if I don’t jump in front of a train at the prospect of losing my job/house etc. following Brexit....!!
v8ksn said:
Porsche911R said:
I take you are a non brexit person :-)
Dammit said:
I'm someone who can read the governments own forecasts on the matter.
Please can we keep politics off this forum. Lets not ruin an informative thread. 
It’s so much more fun talking about cars....
hornbaek said:
I think we need a photo to get this thread back on track:
A big part of owning a car is going through the deliberations before you take the final decision - so enjoy the moment.
WOW— What a dream pairing....!! Probably the best of the Porsche “analogues” alongside the best of the “modern”.....!! Stunning.....A big part of owning a car is going through the deliberations before you take the final decision - so enjoy the moment.
Edited by hornbaek on Wednesday 14th March 09:47
AndrewD said:
A plea not to turn an innocent car thread into crystal ball gazing either side of the Brexit camp!
Agree— can we please stick to car related discussions on this thread.....?? The input so far has been really informative, and is having a big influence on my potential next GT purchase.... Having not previously even considered the 997.2 3RS, I can now see it makes the most sense for me: it combines all the best features of my 987 Spyder (hydraulic steering, manual shifter, general feedback...) with a proper GT motor (something even my beloved GT4 lacks...!!). As an added bonus— I may well lose less come resale..... Hopefully a “win-win”....!
Just goes to show, I guess: the “latest” is not always the “greatest”....!!
I’m on the hunt— cheers all for your well informed feedback....!! I always know I can rely on the Porsche Pistonhead posse to come up trumps...!! This forum has helped me no end in both my 987 Spyder purchase, and my subsequent GT4 purchase.... So: thanks all....!!
Out of interest— why do the LHD cars sell for soooo much less than the RHD models....?? Surely the global market for LHD is greater...?? Have never quite got my head around that one...!! A LHD 991.1 GT3-RS, for example, can be had for £20k less than a similarly specced RHD model...!! Seems insane....
Cheib said:
Or for something a bit different I was in JZM last week.They had a white/red 997.2 RS just in with just over 20 k miles....been used as it should but looked in VGC. They were going to advertise it for £152k. Completely standard car apart from Sport Chrono. Maybe given that and the mileage/use it was a tad pricey but it’s £30k cheaper than the high spec/very low mileage cars that collectors buy.
Yep— still there and undergoing prep prior to sale.... Going to be advertised at £156k.... As the chap at JZM honestly said, it’s not going to be a “collectors car”, due to the miles, base spec and plenty of track usage.....!! He essentially said that the 997 3RS is now clearly falling into 2 distinct brackets: the “investment” cars and the “pure enthusiast” cars— with the former likely to hold value, or maybe even rise, and the latter likely to continue to fall over time.... But, for me, that could well be ideal: I plan to use it like the GT4 (ie. A LOT...!!), so buying it purely as an investment is never going to work...!! Only issue is, I can pick up a low mileage, higher specced— “collector style”— car for “only” £20k more..... If these cars really are worth so much more than the heavily used examples, such as that at JZM, then I would have thought £156k is probably asking a little on the high side...?? As I rarely see well used examples of these on the market (most are pristine, almost untouched examples), I have no “yardstick” against which to compare the JZM car, and thus have no idea whether I should be bargaining for a decent reduction or not....!! It’s a tough one....!! Any thoughts from current owners/enthusiasts would be super-welcome...!!Juno said:
What is it with all this, you must buy manual nowadays, I don’t get it !
Yet here we are now saying a manual GT3 .2 is a better car than a .1 GT3RS with PDK.
In fact .2GT3’s are the same money .1 GT3RS now and forgetting the engine I know which I’d have.Both cars were built and developed to be PDK cars from the start. They are better suited to the PDK box,end of!!! After all what is a gear change, in a manual it is a 1/2 inch movement with one ankle and one wrist while effectively loosing drive and unbalancing the car whilst either accelerating or decelerating. In a PDK it’s a 1/2 inch flick of a finger which in effect does exactly the same thing as the full manual alternative but without upsetting the balance of the car due to the quicker shift and associated shorter dead period of drive loss and associated weight transfer!
We spend ages talking about the improvements in suspension handling diffs etc to create a more agile and better balanced car to now say let’s stick a manual anvil in between that technology to F up the whole scenario!
My personal opinion is all this talk of manual is more about values and trying to emulate a 911R than the true belief that a manual is more entertaining.
It’s an interesting discussion, isn’t it....?? Yet here we are now saying a manual GT3 .2 is a better car than a .1 GT3RS with PDK.
In fact .2GT3’s are the same money .1 GT3RS now and forgetting the engine I know which I’d have.Both cars were built and developed to be PDK cars from the start. They are better suited to the PDK box,end of!!! After all what is a gear change, in a manual it is a 1/2 inch movement with one ankle and one wrist while effectively loosing drive and unbalancing the car whilst either accelerating or decelerating. In a PDK it’s a 1/2 inch flick of a finger which in effect does exactly the same thing as the full manual alternative but without upsetting the balance of the car due to the quicker shift and associated shorter dead period of drive loss and associated weight transfer!
We spend ages talking about the improvements in suspension handling diffs etc to create a more agile and better balanced car to now say let’s stick a manual anvil in between that technology to F up the whole scenario!
My personal opinion is all this talk of manual is more about values and trying to emulate a 911R than the true belief that a manual is more entertaining.
Edited by Juno on Saturday 17th March 17:04
I have ALWAYS been a manual guy, through and through.... I wouldn’t even consider anything else.... My first Porsche was a 986 Boxster- I tried the Tiptronic box, absolutely loathed it...!! Then drove the manual, and I was in love....!! So tactile, so precise.... Then I moved onto a 987 Spyder: again, hated the PDK but the manual was the sweetest shift I’d ever experienced..... Then onto the GT4 (my current car)– another amazing manual box: short/precise gear shifts and sooo rewarding....!! Could gear shifting get any better....?!?
But..... Fast forward to 2018.... My wife has pursuaded me to get hold of a 991.2 GTS (for practical, family reasons), and my view has changed somewhat.... My OPC didn’t have a manual GTS as a demo, so persuaded me to “give the PDK a go”..... So, with a heavy heart and a very closed mind, I did..... And it wasn’t atall bad....!! Of course, I had to switch it to “manual” mode, and I still changed gears with the shifter, not the paddles.... But, it was slick, I retained control of the shifts, I could push it to the limiter if i desired. And it felt kinda “right”..... I shocked myself, but was still adamant that a manual box would be far more engaging....
Roll on last week, and a day at the Silverstone PEC— a manual GTS awaited...... This was going to be fun....!! My GT4 shifter in a GTS..... YES...!!
But actually.... No.... It felt “sloppy”, loose, imprecise, slow.... Not atall like the PDK equivalent.... As Juno says: it felt like the box just wasn’t “meant” to be a manual..... As if Porsche have put so much tech into the most recent PDKs, that the manual has been left behind somewhat.... As a diehard manual fan-boy, i was pretty shocked.... But, if given the choice, I think the PDK— at least in the GTS— would be the one I’d choose to have.....
Of course, having never driven the Gen2 GT3, in either manual or PDK form, the experience could well be completely different.... Others can comment on this better than me. But, i do wonder whether Porsche has now provided so much flexibility in their PDK transmissions, that the manuals are becoming a bit “detached” from the rest of the cars....??
One thing I DID really miss in the PDK car though was the ability to “heel and toe”..... It’s taken me years to master the art of this technique, and it was more than frustrating to have the PDK transmission continually rev-match for me on every down-shift.... Arghhh....!!
RSVP911 said:
AndrewD said:
You do realise you simply don't have to press the sport button? It doesn't really do anything apart from rev match on downshift.
You said it ages ago, people are different. They buy cars for all sorts of reasons not black or white. Not sure there is much else to say on the PDK vs manuel debate.
Morning Andrew - so the sport button is literally an auto blip button - no change in engine mapping ? You said it ages ago, people are different. They buy cars for all sorts of reasons not black or white. Not sure there is much else to say on the PDK vs manuel debate.
Cheers
Porsche911R said:
LaSource said:
The sport button on the GT4 also opens up extra cooling in the front rads (you can visibility see the coolant temp reduce on circuit and probably road too). However Porsche never made a strong point about the extra cooling being recommended for the engine on circuit and therefore most people just used it as n 'auto blip on/off' button. Ideally you would want the cooling on and the auto blip off but can't select like that.
I assume the 991.2GT3 does something similar else they would have called it an 'auto blip on/off' button
GT4 would open the extra cooling if needed sport off, so was really a auto blip button.I assume the 991.2GT3 does something similar else they would have called it an 'auto blip on/off' button
luigisayshello said:
Yes. Even better on the 991.2 rs deliveries. The 991.1 rs won't appreciate anytime soon, and given all the gt values it won't drop much from the cheap ones
Despite having kind of talked myself into going for a 997.2 GT3-RS over the 991.1 RS model (manual shift, analogue feel, feedback etc, etc....), I still went ahead with my pre booked test-drive in a 991.1 GT3-RS today.... All I can say is..... WOW..... It’s an insane car— clearly wayyyy too fast for normal road use, but still fantastic in so many ways.... I did find myself pressing an imaginary clutch pedal, but tbh the PDK shift— in manual mode— was pretty impressive nonetheless..... Steering feel, for an electronic system, was surprisingly good; sound was amazing; throttle response unbelievable; cornered as if on rails.....!! I know, I know: I haven’t yet been offered a test drive in the 997 equivalent, so haven’t really got a proper benchmark— but I did LOVE it..... A LOT... Am I talking myself into this car....?? Probably..... It didn’t help that the dealer offered me far more for my GT4 than I thought possible.....
Arghhhh.....!!! Hopefully I’ll get behind the wheel of the 997 3RS soon, before I do something impulsive, which I may later regret...!!
Anyway..... Below is the car I was looking at.... Any feedback on spec etc would be much appreciated....
My greatest concern, I guess, is that it’s the ONLY RS I’ve seen for sale that DOESN’T have the full 918 buckets.... It has the folding variety, which I had in my 987 Spyder and really quite liked.... My GT4 has the full fixed buckets, which I also quite like, especially on track days..... What do peeps think— will this make the car a difficult one to move on in the future....??? Would seem silly, but then the Porsche market often is pretty fickle... https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Cheers all....!!
Edited by Swimfinz on Tuesday 20th March 20:49
RSVP911 said:
Glad you liked it - bottom line is they are completly different cars - not comparable - both great but very different things.
Don’t rush into anything : the 991RS market is soft - lots for sale and more will be up for sale as the second wave of 991.2 GT3’s / RS’s arrive - I think the car is also missing Leather dash - I’m sure you can get as good a deal on one with 918 seats and leather dash . Not that I think the seats are an issue in reality , but you will find they will be used as an excuse to low ball you when you chop it in - but I think the dash is more of a turn off than the seats.
Edited to add - just noticed mileage - this car is not good value IMHO - not that 9000 is high but in the GT market it is a factor that will bite you on re sale. I would not buy this car - sorry
No worries— I actually REALLY appreciate the input, positive or negative.... This is an expensive purchase for me, and I will not part with my hard-earned cash lightly...!!Don’t rush into anything : the 991RS market is soft - lots for sale and more will be up for sale as the second wave of 991.2 GT3’s / RS’s arrive - I think the car is also missing Leather dash - I’m sure you can get as good a deal on one with 918 seats and leather dash . Not that I think the seats are an issue in reality , but you will find they will be used as an excuse to low ball you when you chop it in - but I think the dash is more of a turn off than the seats.
Edited to add - just noticed mileage - this car is not good value IMHO - not that 9000 is high but in the GT market it is a factor that will bite you on re sale. I would not buy this car - sorry
Edited by RSVP911 on Tuesday 20th March 21:13
Having said that, looking on both the OPC Network, and on the general market, it would seem that a car with “significantly” lower mileage +/- leather dash, would currently set me back a further £20-30k....!! Are those few thousand extra miles, and a leather dash, really worth that much more...?!? It may well be the case— as I said before, the Porsche market is very fickle— but I’m still pretty shocked at the difference 4K miles makes to the car’s value....
Porsche911R said:
blackmamba said:
I think as long as you allow for any perceived impact on value due to seats, dash, miles etc in the price then I wouldn't discount it. Good negotiating position and £20-30k is a good allowance to play with.
Or hold out for a fully spec’d car with low miles that you will be worried about driving!
I agree I would rather buy a car with 10k miles and save £15k, buying a car with only 3k miles makes you think if you use it you loose £15k that's one expensive euro hoon.Or hold out for a fully spec’d car with low miles that you will be worried about driving!
Having said that RSVP’s point is an excellent one: I am looking at the “for sale” prices, rather than the actual selling prices, so maybe the £20k price differential between low>higher mileage cars is not entirely accurate.... If it is though— I would defo rather save the £20k, and hoon around in my car WHENEVER I wanted.....
xbowdan said:
OP; did you buy a RS in the end? In a similar position myself, just wondered what you ended up doing?
Hi....!! Nope— I’m now seriously considering (yep, I am that crazy....!!), paying stupid overs for a manual 991.2 GT3....My problem always was that I LOVE my manual Porsches: from my first 986 Boxster, then 987 Cayman, then 987.2 Spyder (bloody amazing car), and now my current GT4....!! I drive more on road than track (70:30 atm), so the sheer speed of a PDK gear change isn’t essential to me.... And I feel it lacks the “involvement/interaction” of a simple manual box... Even on track, as a relative track amateur, I’m still not sure it would make a huge difference to my lap times...!! And may well not be as much fun as a manual car even so...
I’ve driven a few 991.1 3RSs, and I do love them: the “bags of nails” engine and the sheer aggression of the motor is addictive.... But..... I still prefer a manual box and, at £180k, it’s got to be the “right” choice, with no reservations....!!
I’ve recently driven a mate’s manual 991.2 GT3 and, I’ve got to say, I LOVE it...!! It shifts just as well as the GT4, with shorter gearing: fantastic box..... However, is it worth £100k more (with the stupid overs) than a GT4.....?? I’m not so sure tbh.... But I’m tempted....
So, it’s either take the plunge and accept the overs market for what it is, or wait for the prices on the manual Gen2s to fall..... In the mean time, I’m more than happy with my GT4, and it STILL brings a smile to my face every time I drive it... The 991.1 3RS is a bloody brilliant machine though and, if a full on track-rat, I would say the better way to spend £180k of your hard earned cash than the Gen2 GT3....!!
Good luck in what you decide to do....
Crackedwinscreen said:
Manuals aside, the 991.1 GT3 RS has to be the sweet spot and over £100k less than a .2 GT3 RS is a relative bargain. What will the differential between the two in years to come be, £20 - £30k? (WP cars excluded)
Agree 100%.... If I wasn’t so desperate for a manual, I’d be all over the 991.1 3RS right now.... Prices seem to be stabilising atm, so probs a good time to take the plunge.... Porsche911R said:
The manual GT3 does fix the 5 things which bugged me with the GT4.
But it's a bit much as a road car to exploit in full and at the overs price one can buy some very nice toys. My head is torn atm. It is the modern 997 RS 4.0 though and they are £500k !
Let me know if you decide against your manual GT3, and are willing to move it on at a “reasonable” price (ie. NOT £50k overs....!!) But it's a bit much as a road car to exploit in full and at the overs price one can buy some very nice toys. My head is torn atm. It is the modern 997 RS 4.0 though and they are £500k !
Porsche911R said:
For me it's a manual buy though so no choices bar going back in time to a 2011 RS.
LOL— Reading your posts is a continual re-iteration of my own bloody dilemma....!! Modern tech manual Gen2 GT3, or outdated tech 997.2 GT3-RS.... Arghhh....!!If only I could learn to love PDK, my options would be sooooo much greater....!!
Edited by Swimfinz on Sunday 3rd June 12:55
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