PCCB out braked the steels last night on 5th gear.
Discussion
surprised no ones talked about this yet.
as the normal suspects poo poo PCCB and say no advantage.
5th gear, 2 cars, same model,tyres etc , The PCCB car killed the steel shod car by a nice margin (16 feet) then after 10 stops beat it by 100 feet.
black and white PCCB win really.
as the normal suspects poo poo PCCB and say no advantage.
5th gear, 2 cars, same model,tyres etc , The PCCB car killed the steel shod car by a nice margin (16 feet) then after 10 stops beat it by 100 feet.
black and white PCCB win really.
Edited by Porsche911R on Friday 15th November 15:20
Slippydiff said:
And ?
95% people here say zero advantage because AP from Porsche does not talk about them when he does his cars chats.Even the racers here say no such advantage, and thus every one falls in line with miss info.
I have always said their was an advantage and not just for repeated stops.
hence I now own 3 cars with ceramic disks.
2 cars tested results are black and white to see.
16 foot after 1 stop, 100 feet after 10 stops.
JulierPass said:
I haven't seen the article as I don't watch 5th gear. However, there is a reason why all of the factory built Porsche Cup Cars and R's have steel brakes. If the advantage was as pronounced as your post suggests then the race would come with ceramics from the factory.
Higher up the racing tree they do use carbon disks.Chainsaw Rebuild said:
Well this has turned out to be embarrassing for the op: it turned out bigger brakes work better.
On the contrary , PCCBS have always been bigger and again are bigger in the GT3 models.nothing is embarrassing bar over the last 10 years people saying no advantage even if bigger.
poppopbangbang said:
Porsche911R said:
Higher up the racing tree they do use carbon disks.
They are completely different to the carbon ceramics found on road cars though. A modern carbon/carbon brake package can't really be compared to what is used for a road application as they are leagues apart in weight, performance and technology and have more in common with what is on commercial airliners than road cars.Slippydiff said:
poppopbangbang said:
Porsche911R said:
Higher up the racing tree they do use carbon disks.
They are completely different to the carbon ceramics found on road cars though. A modern carbon/carbon brake package can't really be compared to what is used for a road application as they are leagues apart in weight, performance and technology and have more in common with what is on commercial airliners than road cars.I am the biggest poster saying road cars make bad track cars and visa versa.
I'll take heated seats and LED lights and lift thanks.
So it looks like the 5th gear test was pretty black and white and the people who track PCCB cars agree as does Manthey.
about time the dinosaurs got on board ;-) esp as disks have got bigger over time the weight saving has increased also by quite a large margin, bringing along the others advantages that brings.
Also as people have stated try and get a price on the GT3 380mm and then try the trick ones from Brembo, these prices have also sky rocketed, making the £6k option for the disks VERY cheap.
I am a convert from 2010 and saw the real world difference, I speced my GT4 wrong, but I did that with a few things on that car inc those gasty 918 seats... the car was new, the seats were new,the brakes were big. I went with it. So while some quote me on that I corrected my errors in my GT3 which has PCCB's and folding buckets :-)
3 of my current cars run ceramic disks they are better in every single way vs the non cost option in all 3 of my cars and over different brands.
wheels is the next big test, the Mags are bringing in a big advantage, if you don't have PCCB's and Mag wheels on these new £200k super cars you are not getting the best from them...and the key thing is they are CHEAP to option over buying after on both accounts.
people have been asking for PCCB tests for years, we now have had one, get with it people :-)
about time the dinosaurs got on board ;-) esp as disks have got bigger over time the weight saving has increased also by quite a large margin, bringing along the others advantages that brings.
Also as people have stated try and get a price on the GT3 380mm and then try the trick ones from Brembo, these prices have also sky rocketed, making the £6k option for the disks VERY cheap.
I am a convert from 2010 and saw the real world difference, I speced my GT4 wrong, but I did that with a few things on that car inc those gasty 918 seats... the car was new, the seats were new,the brakes were big. I went with it. So while some quote me on that I corrected my errors in my GT3 which has PCCB's and folding buckets :-)
3 of my current cars run ceramic disks they are better in every single way vs the non cost option in all 3 of my cars and over different brands.
wheels is the next big test, the Mags are bringing in a big advantage, if you don't have PCCB's and Mag wheels on these new £200k super cars you are not getting the best from them...and the key thing is they are CHEAP to option over buying after on both accounts.
people have been asking for PCCB tests for years, we now have had one, get with it people :-)
isaldiri said:
Actually this is the 3rd that I can remember and the first time it has shown an advantage for ceramics. Funnily enough you choose to ignore the earlier c&d and evo tests that show roughly equal performance.
tech and the size has moved on, As I stated above being bigger the weight difference is now much greater also.This is a current test on current like for like cars at REAL SPEEDS it was a pretty big win.
I think past tests were done at LOWER speeds which then is a tyre/grip issue.
you CANNOT over come tyre grip at >80mph, you can at 60mph so it shows what the brakes are doing over what the tyres are doing.
Take this out to 120mph and you will see even a bigger gap in performance.
Maybe that's why Porsche told them to use 80mph to show the difference.
isaldiri said:
For a more direct comparison with a car with more competent brakes on both materials, SportAuto braking tests for a iron 991 c2s compared to a ceramic gts back in 2015/2014 (different days)
so different cars !!! on different days !! prob on different bits are tarmac , FFS totally pointless....GTS weigh more for a start !
weight is every thing when braking as are grip levels on the day.
Steve Rance said:
Porsche911R said:
surprised no ones talked about this yet.
as the normal suspects poo poo PCCB and say no advantage.
5th gear, 2 cars, same model,tyres etc , The PCCB car killed the steel shod car by a nice margin (16 feet) then after 10 stops beat it by 100 feet.
black and white PCCB win really.
Yep, definatelty back on the old tablets.. as the normal suspects poo poo PCCB and say no advantage.
5th gear, 2 cars, same model,tyres etc , The PCCB car killed the steel shod car by a nice margin (16 feet) then after 10 stops beat it by 100 feet.
black and white PCCB win really.
I am a steel fan boy if you have the money you can get a setup which is nice for £10k and it's nice to pick a pad for your type of driving.
a 10k set up will also match the pccb weight !!! as Porsche still use cheap heavy calipers !!
oem Porsche vs oem Porsche the PCCB will win every time imo, even it's it due to the size alone, that's just physics moving the caliper out will give more force as you cannot lock a wheel at 80mph plus so PCCBS will always out brake a steel car at speed.
add in the weight #(now much bigger over a 997) you also have to stop A LOT less weight which again physics alone means less weight is easier to stop.
then you have the sus advantages on bumpy road it might be able to keep the tyre on the road better.
I did notice the 5th gear test road was a bumpy as hell bit of tarmac.
this is the ONLY test were we have seen like for like cars on the same day above legal speeds in porkers where PCCB choice gives a much bigger disk.
the Jag test I am sure the ceramics are the same size disks. the C&D test was different cars, different days plus a GTS weighing more.
it's not the same as PDK vs manual, we all know PDK changes gear faster.
any way I posted the results as it was interesting as we have ALL BEEN asking the questions for years. it's the same 4 or 5 die hards who poo poo PCCB's ! it's always a given on a 987 platform that PCCB are night and day, it's never been night and day for the GT3 market.
a 10k set up will also match the pccb weight !!! as Porsche still use cheap heavy calipers !!
oem Porsche vs oem Porsche the PCCB will win every time imo, even it's it due to the size alone, that's just physics moving the caliper out will give more force as you cannot lock a wheel at 80mph plus so PCCBS will always out brake a steel car at speed.
add in the weight #(now much bigger over a 997) you also have to stop A LOT less weight which again physics alone means less weight is easier to stop.
then you have the sus advantages on bumpy road it might be able to keep the tyre on the road better.
I did notice the 5th gear test road was a bumpy as hell bit of tarmac.
this is the ONLY test were we have seen like for like cars on the same day above legal speeds in porkers where PCCB choice gives a much bigger disk.
the Jag test I am sure the ceramics are the same size disks. the C&D test was different cars, different days plus a GTS weighing more.
it's not the same as PDK vs manual, we all know PDK changes gear faster.
any way I posted the results as it was interesting as we have ALL BEEN asking the questions for years. it's the same 4 or 5 die hards who poo poo PCCB's ! it's always a given on a 987 platform that PCCB are night and day, it's never been night and day for the GT3 market.
Yellow491 said:
Answer a question R,if the weight saving is that critical to performance of a road car on road tyres,why are the dampers and spring rating not any different of steel over ceramic on the gt cars,and for that matter mag wheels.
PASM has big windows to allow 2 people and luggage etc etc.the 1st thing Manthey do to make a car faster is rip PASM out.
we own road cars, but if you are serious about track days then even 10kg out is a plus, taking 100 kg out is night and day.
you hill climb , what's 100kg worth time wise up a small UK hill climb ?
I wanted to hill climb my Spyder, I was told my PCCB car did not qualify in the oem class !!! and it would have to go in modiflied !! which was daft vs what a fully modded race car looks like and weighs !! this was back in 2010 I wonder if the regs have changed now PCCB are more common.
Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 19th November 10:27
isaldiri said:
accurate if your braking force remains the same for a heavier car. It does not for the purposes of earlier example as the car slows at the force of friction from tyre to road....
KE = 0.5 mv^2 = force x distance = work done to stop the car.
Force being coefficient of friction x mass x gravitational acceleration.
Mass cancels on both sides of the equation.
I'm all ears if someone can disprove the above btw as well.
it is basics as far as I can see, but did leave school at 15, you again are going to deep and think your bakes can over come the grip of a tyre which they cannot at speed.KE = 0.5 mv^2 = force x distance = work done to stop the car.
Force being coefficient of friction x mass x gravitational acceleration.
Mass cancels on both sides of the equation.
I'm all ears if someone can disprove the above btw as well.
Kinetic Energy = 0·5 x mass x velocity2 when you have that figure you can then do the Use F = m x a
so MASS is the KEY figure in both which doubles the braking distance if you double the mass for the same force.
you seem to think your brakes are 700mm and have the force to lock a wheel, they don't so the force is the same is it not ?
and the skill in braking once you have over come friction of a tyre is threshold braking. ie you can out brake a ABS car using advanced threshold techniques.
so at 120 mph say, you only have the force of the brakes which cannot over come friction of the tyres until about 60 /70 mph then it's the skill of the driver to modulate the pedal reducing the force needed which could then over come the grip of said tyre.
the Only way to match the stopping distance is reducing mass of the car, or increase the force of the brakes, NOTHING to do with tyres in like for like cars.
the issue here is as far as I can tell is 10 or 20 people in the last 20 years since I have been on here think they can lock a wheel at 150 mph !!! YOU CANNOT !!!
the gravity thing I don't understand. I guess that plays a part at which point you over come friction and then tyres some into play.
All I can tell you in real life is if you add a passenger you need to brake earlier, not only that you are also going slower at the braking point. so a loose loose for a track time.
I still think it comes down to people thinking they have the force to lock a wheel at any speed !!!!
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 20th November 10:03
isaldiri said:
The whole point is that you are not necessarily braking at the same force for a heavier car.
And you bloody well can lock a tyre easily above 70mph. Braking for stowe down hangar straight at 140+ on a rs or even at 150+ on a Mclaren, with enough shove ABS will trigger very quickly and in no way only at 60/70mph as you are claiming which is below the minimum apex speed of stowe in one of those cars anyway..
I picked a 60/70 mph figure out the air as it's down to grip levels and tyres. In the rain you can trigger ABS at 150 I guess.And you bloody well can lock a tyre easily above 70mph. Braking for stowe down hangar straight at 140+ on a rs or even at 150+ on a Mclaren, with enough shove ABS will trigger very quickly and in no way only at 60/70mph as you are claiming which is below the minimum apex speed of stowe in one of those cars anyway..
you are braking at the same force as that's all your brakes can provide !! then you have to remove pressure when the brakes over come friction at what speed this is on any said car be it 60mph to 100mph, it's def not at 160 mph on hanger straight when you 1st press them.
go do a race school course, you will find you cannot lock a wheel at high speed and the skill in corner entry is ALL about threshold braking once you have scrubed some speed off.
on track I never see a ABS light ! and I do notice I take yards out of other cars on track in corner entry. that's why driving a manual demands a much higher degree of skill to lap fast, track driving is pretty basic, it's straights and bends ALL track time gained is under brakes at a certain skill level and if you know the fastest line that's that. Corner entry is key, every thing else just happens imo.
hunter 66 said:
ABS , try race a car without it , then Braking especially into corners becomes an issue .......
that's the skill in lapping fast if you read my post above.A highly skilled driver can threshold brake to a high degree of accuracy avoiding the ABS system or in a car without ABS avoid a lock up, watch F1 they manage ok ;-)
But F1 is a case in point, at 200 mph they are not locking a tyre down the straights under brakes, once the force over comes the grip you see F1 cars lock the unloaded wheel at the lower speeds.
lapping fast is all corner entry, we have talked about this before, you think it's all corner exit. but that's a by product of entry.
hence you see a lot of people over take under brakes to then get repasted straight away out the bend.
There is only 1 fastest line and there is only one braking point, get either wrong and you do a slower lap time !
Steve Rance said:
Porsche911R said:
that's the skill in lapping fast if you read my post above.
A highly skilled driver can threshold brake to a high degree of accuracy avoiding the ABS system or in a car without ABS avoid a lock up, watch F1 they manage ok ;-)
But F1 is a case in point, at 200 mph they are not locking a tyre down the straights under brakes, once the force over comes the grip you see F1 cars lock the unloaded wheel at the lower speeds.
lapping fast is all corner entry, we have talked about this before, you think it's all corner exit. but that's a by product of entry.
hence you see a lot of people over take under brakes to then get repasted straight away out the bend.
There is only 1 fastest line and there is only one braking point, get either wrong and you do a slower lap time !
Driving by numbers? Your braking points and lines would be exactly the same over the course of a sprint race or say 3 hour stint? You wouldnt change them? What about adjustable brake bias. Still only 1 fastest line and braking point? A highly skilled driver can threshold brake to a high degree of accuracy avoiding the ABS system or in a car without ABS avoid a lock up, watch F1 they manage ok ;-)
But F1 is a case in point, at 200 mph they are not locking a tyre down the straights under brakes, once the force over comes the grip you see F1 cars lock the unloaded wheel at the lower speeds.
lapping fast is all corner entry, we have talked about this before, you think it's all corner exit. but that's a by product of entry.
hence you see a lot of people over take under brakes to then get repasted straight away out the bend.
There is only 1 fastest line and there is only one braking point, get either wrong and you do a slower lap time !
Love your enthusiasm but I think that with posts like this you are sleepwalking towards planet dilettante
the skills always in corner entry though and that's where the lap time comes from. And for each given lap there would be one best line and one best braking point, that's the skill of the driver to maximize and find out. The rest of track driving is pretty simple and a by product of that.
Digga said:
But in racing, there is the 'they zig, I zag' philosophy. You watch a skilled overtaker (alonso, in his day for example) and they will often weigh up the driver in front and then deliberately use a different line to get past. There can be more than one line.
Moreover, in relation to braking rather than exit speed.
SLow in fast out is old school, fast in faster out ;-)Moreover, in relation to braking rather than exit speed.
- That depends on whether the longer straight is before or after the bend in question
- Exit speed dictates your pace at the end of the next straight
- Slow in, fast out!
Alonso zig zag to make the car if front go OFF line or cover the inside line, keeping the over taking car on a faster line !
If you are on the fastest line and doing the perfect lap you cannot overtake a car unless you have drs or kers or a more powerfull car or less worn tyres etc etc.
you see people try and they out brake the car only to get repassed straight away as the car in front was doing the perfect braking point.
there is NOT more than one fastest line for qually, race craft there are will be different lines but they will be slower.
hence if two cars are playing silly buggers for 2nd and 3rd, 1st will have gained another 5 seconds lead and 4th will be back up your arse.
Steve Rance said:
I’ve driven 997 cups on steels and a 997 super cup on ceramics. There was nothing in it . The steels were easier to modulate
I run a 2010 PCCB car and a 2017 PCCB car both can be modulated to avoid ABS cut in no issue.PCCBS imo have less bite and imo the newer cars require a lot of pedal pressure and thus my 2017 car is even easier to threshold brake than my 2010 car, but neither is an issue. I would actually like more bite in the 2017 GT3 and will fit either endless or the Manthey Racing custom Pagid pad to my GT3 both are said to offer more bite and be kinder to disk wear.
Steve Rance said:
Bingo. You are starting to work your way towards getting your GCSE. Now all you have to do is to work out why the braking point is never a constant - along with your line and then how that might change with engine layout and other dynamic mechanicalvariables, mix that in with weather etc. and then throw all that into a pot and figure out your fastest line and braking point for each lap to get your A level. Then you've got to translate that into practice and your real learning starts.
I started racing a long time ago. 30 years on, I'm still learning and realise how little I knew back then and how much there still is to learn. If you want to truly learn any art you need to open your mind to the possibility that there is always more to learn and also, a little humility doesnt go amiss on occasion.
Getting back to Ceramic brakes. I know that you have them on your car and that other drivers who have them would like to think that there is a benefit. From personal experience , the advantage on the track is minimal - certainly for the cost. If you are looking at marginal benefit per £ spent there are other less expensive upgrades that will bring much greater performance benefits. I'm not saying that there are absolutely no benefits - but they are marginal.
I stared racing at 12 at national level all be it 1/10th scale :-) but it's like for like, and you learn about geo's, dampers, spring rates, lines and race craft all the same. yes you are always learning, but at a top level setup of a car over takes skill imo. I now sim race. and set up at my level plays a far bigger part than my driving skill levelI started racing a long time ago. 30 years on, I'm still learning and realise how little I knew back then and how much there still is to learn. If you want to truly learn any art you need to open your mind to the possibility that there is always more to learn and also, a little humility doesnt go amiss on occasion.
Getting back to Ceramic brakes. I know that you have them on your car and that other drivers who have them would like to think that there is a benefit. From personal experience , the advantage on the track is minimal - certainly for the cost. If you are looking at marginal benefit per £ spent there are other less expensive upgrades that will bring much greater performance benefits. I'm not saying that there are absolutely no benefits - but they are marginal.
I have some talent in there some where, I don't today have the balls and the reactions of the 30 year olds in real £120k cars on real tracks, but on sim racing I do have some race craft skills and the freedom of crashing at no cost.
I found track days got dull in road bias cars ! and the more expensive the car the less you want to push !! , sim racing is more fun as you ARE racing real people and the fastest guys in the world.
track days I always see a car crash, also all racers crash ! I don't want to risk a £135k car crash , it's that simple.
and while a track set up ruins a road car, on a sim you can do what you like.
I am faster in auto ABS cars , that's a given but it's Still all about corner entry to get that fastest lap.
race craft is interesting as atm I just let faster cars by within 2 corners, why battle a faster driver and loose lap time ! early doors
I will often start 5th ish than after a few laps be 7th or 8th, then most times finish 3rd or even win if cars above battle and go off with each other, very rare to win from 5th but I have done it once.
you see this on TV people will fight a faster car for track position in lap 2 when we all know that car will most likely finish 12th or 13th
many a time Lewis has battled a car on track mid race and then pitted and come out saying "how did Vetal or **** " get in front !!!
well while you were battling a 7th place car vetal was lapping 2 seconds a lap faster for 5 laps !!! and it takes a ENG over the radio to tell the driver"this battle is not the real battle let them past you will over take them in the pits later"
as for racing, most racing in real life again to watch is dull, be it F1, clios, 911 cups, the guy who is fastest in all formats ie the one with the most poles is in the main leading the championship, be it Pro, pro am or rookie !!!
most races there is a line of cars and some times the top 5 cars never change, you start 5th you finish 5th esp in shorter races. !!!
sim racing at a high level is the same, you are 5th you stay 5th as you are the 5th best driver in that race !! and unless people make mistakes that's that, a line of cars from start to finish. You try the do or dive moves only to be re-overtaken, and again they try that on you .
funny old game racing real or sim, and why in the main the fastest car wins and in like for like cars the guy on pole 8 out of 12 races is the guy leading the championship !!! and the guy last on the grid is last in the championship !!!
good battles are few and far between in all formats of racing, and I have been looking up results in all formats and it rings true the pole sitters are the championship leaders.
IS racing a FIX today !!! with DRS and BOP rules is racing fixed !!! you cannot have a GT car winning every race, so BOP rules can make the winner who they want. F1 well the fastest cars wins all season...
A lot of people race as they have money, It don't make people fast ! you either have some driving skills or you don't and you either have the right car under you or you don't. You can hone a skill and you can learn more. but a slow driver will never be a fast driver I find. A slow driver can be a faster driver , but that still puts them in last place on the grid.
as I said the guys who qually last in 911 cup racing are bone last in the championship.
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