911 - I've seen the light!
Discussion
So I've never been a Porsche kind of guy. Don't know why, but apart from nearly buying my bosses 911 3.2 Supersport in the red braces era, I've never even thought about having one.
I've got an EV coming in around 6-9 months, and like many people I imagine, during an idle moment in lockdown I constructed a 'bucket list' of cars to have before the petrol dies. I thought (and my friends nagged me) that I really should try a 911. My BMW 650i had been a fabulous daily driver but it was time to let it go after 8 years and 90,000 miles. So I did the only thing a true petrolhead could do and bought a manual 997.1 (arctic silver 61K miles, immaculate condition). I chose this very deliberately as I wanted a 911 that I could daily drive so that I got the most out of it in the 9 months or so I plan to have it, and that ruled out anything older for me. Likewise I didn't want or need the performance of anything newer so I judged that a 997.1 was probably the sweet spot.
I did not drive it before buying, as I don't think that you can tell much from a test drive and usually I hate new cars because they just feel unfamiliar, but I did get it inspected. With the report I was able to negotiate into the asking price discs and pads and new tyres all round, a new tandem pump and fixing a few broken trim clips. Other than that it didn't need anything, The cam deviation data suggested that the IMS bearing was fine and no signs of bore scoring. I will get a low temp thermostat as a precaution at some point soon.
I picked it up today. Why didn't anyone tell me! (Well actually they did, but I didn't listen.) This thing is fabulous. I've had and have some reasonably sporty cars (currently a BAC Mono and I've owned a gen 1 NSX for 15 years), but the 997 can absolutely hold it's head high. I've only had a couple of hours in it so far, but I can see already why people rate them so highly.
Things it has in common with the NSX are a feeling of lightness and an utterly rigid body. Likewise the absence of any slack in the drivetrain. The 997 has more low down torque although the NSX encourages you to rev higher to get that VTec wail. Both feel very analogue and mechanical. The 997 feels tiny and so easy to place and in both the 997 and the NSX you see the humps at the edge of the bonnet which allow you to judge the position perfectly. The 997 has PAS unlike the NSX, and so is easier to park, but the steering feel is still excellent and on a par with the NSX. The interior quality in both is excellent and there isn't a single rattle or squeak. (I've Gliptoned the slight bit of wear on the drivers seat already.)
I'm not sure it needs it but I've got it booked into Center Gravity for a full geo and corner weight setup in a few weeks as I went to make sure it is 100% right. It feels pretty good to me so far though.
I'm going to enjoy driving some familiar B roads and comparing the two, but given how much an NSX costs these days the 997 seems an absolute bargain. I haven't driven a 991, but Porsche engineers must have had a few late nights wondering how to improve on this one.
I've got an EV coming in around 6-9 months, and like many people I imagine, during an idle moment in lockdown I constructed a 'bucket list' of cars to have before the petrol dies. I thought (and my friends nagged me) that I really should try a 911. My BMW 650i had been a fabulous daily driver but it was time to let it go after 8 years and 90,000 miles. So I did the only thing a true petrolhead could do and bought a manual 997.1 (arctic silver 61K miles, immaculate condition). I chose this very deliberately as I wanted a 911 that I could daily drive so that I got the most out of it in the 9 months or so I plan to have it, and that ruled out anything older for me. Likewise I didn't want or need the performance of anything newer so I judged that a 997.1 was probably the sweet spot.
I did not drive it before buying, as I don't think that you can tell much from a test drive and usually I hate new cars because they just feel unfamiliar, but I did get it inspected. With the report I was able to negotiate into the asking price discs and pads and new tyres all round, a new tandem pump and fixing a few broken trim clips. Other than that it didn't need anything, The cam deviation data suggested that the IMS bearing was fine and no signs of bore scoring. I will get a low temp thermostat as a precaution at some point soon.
I picked it up today. Why didn't anyone tell me! (Well actually they did, but I didn't listen.) This thing is fabulous. I've had and have some reasonably sporty cars (currently a BAC Mono and I've owned a gen 1 NSX for 15 years), but the 997 can absolutely hold it's head high. I've only had a couple of hours in it so far, but I can see already why people rate them so highly.
Things it has in common with the NSX are a feeling of lightness and an utterly rigid body. Likewise the absence of any slack in the drivetrain. The 997 has more low down torque although the NSX encourages you to rev higher to get that VTec wail. Both feel very analogue and mechanical. The 997 feels tiny and so easy to place and in both the 997 and the NSX you see the humps at the edge of the bonnet which allow you to judge the position perfectly. The 997 has PAS unlike the NSX, and so is easier to park, but the steering feel is still excellent and on a par with the NSX. The interior quality in both is excellent and there isn't a single rattle or squeak. (I've Gliptoned the slight bit of wear on the drivers seat already.)
I'm not sure it needs it but I've got it booked into Center Gravity for a full geo and corner weight setup in a few weeks as I went to make sure it is 100% right. It feels pretty good to me so far though.
I'm going to enjoy driving some familiar B roads and comparing the two, but given how much an NSX costs these days the 997 seems an absolute bargain. I haven't driven a 991, but Porsche engineers must have had a few late nights wondering how to improve on this one.
rosino said:
Funny the same happened to me this week. Except i have seen the light… again.. this is going to be my 5th 911… after 997.1, a 991.1 a GT3 991.1 then a 991.1 for finally a 991.2 Touring.. after a few years.. i decided i needed something nice but sensible, drivable but not too old.. and got myself a 997.2 C2S in Arctic Silver like yours.
I wanted some purity, some involvement, something compact enough. Reliable enough (…) and that would not break the bank as I don’t have much time to drive my cars anymore.. and i hate to know something nice is there sitting unused.
Car is being prepped a bit like yours, very similar items that needed attention and dealer is getting it ready. 2009 manual car with 44k miles. Inspection gave it the green light.
It needs a new exhaust as the 997.2 is just too quiet in standard form. A new steering wheel because the manuals until 2010 MY came with that godawful triangle one.. and then am thinking some bits and pieces but those are the 2 urgent ones.
Am also thinking a place like centre gravity but maybe closer to London to make sure it’s in tip top shape.. the inspection did not highlight any needs in the suspension department but pretty sure a place like CG would..
Yes, likewise mine feels just fine, but I'm sure that CG will make absolutely sure it's in top spec. It's only a couple of hours from me so I will make it a day trip. I want to get the full fat 997 experience.I wanted some purity, some involvement, something compact enough. Reliable enough (…) and that would not break the bank as I don’t have much time to drive my cars anymore.. and i hate to know something nice is there sitting unused.
Car is being prepped a bit like yours, very similar items that needed attention and dealer is getting it ready. 2009 manual car with 44k miles. Inspection gave it the green light.
It needs a new exhaust as the 997.2 is just too quiet in standard form. A new steering wheel because the manuals until 2010 MY came with that godawful triangle one.. and then am thinking some bits and pieces but those are the 2 urgent ones.
Am also thinking a place like centre gravity but maybe closer to London to make sure it’s in tip top shape.. the inspection did not highlight any needs in the suspension department but pretty sure a place like CG would..
BTW apparently it's 'center' not 'centre' because the temp got the spelling wrong when they were setting up and by the time anyone noticed too much promotional material had been created for them to want to change it
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 13th May 00:07
julian987R said:
Boring Mediocre Wagon
I actually really liked my 650i, they’re great effortless cruisers and despite the comical lack of rear seat space, the boot is vast. The sound is a sort of muted Nascar rumble though they are definitely not the best handling cars, fast swapping corners would have you gripping the steering wheel nervously!Still a nice way to cover long distances but the 997 is on a different planet, engagement wise.
My further thoughts on the 997, it’s so small and easy to place, and the drivetrain is so well engineered that it’s ridiculously fast in the real world. I did not expect that.
I was also a little worried that going for a manual might be a mistake as my daily commute ends with 20 mins of crawling through 20mph zones but the 997 is so silky smooth that’s it’s no problem at all, and then when you hit the hood roads you’ve got the joy of the manual box.
I’ve ordered some replacements for the sticky knobs and climate switches and also new floor mats, other than that there’s nothing more to do cosmetically. I’ll fit the Bluetooth module at the same time.
Getting back to the topic, I’m impressed at how clever the packaging of the 911 is. There’s enough room for my luggage and passengers for 99% of occasions (now my kids are above school run age the times when I’ve had more than one passenger are very few) and if I ever have a particularly large consignment of toner to deliver I can always borrow my wife’s car 
A few more thoughts a week on.
I fitted the Mr12Volt bluetooth adaptor at the weekend and also replaced the climate control switches that had the usual horrid sticky paint, I've ordered some more PCM knobs as well.
Things I don't like so far:
It would be nice to have a track forward/back button on the steering wheel.
Why don't the steering wheel controls work when the ignition is off?
I find it hard to tell if I have locked the car or not as there is only one door lock button on the remote and no visible indicator in the car.
People in (probably leased at twice the price of the 997) SUV's won't let you in at junctions ;-)
Things I like:
The steering feel is amazing, I'm learning things about roads that I have driven for years. It's really confidence inspiring along side the ability to rotate the car on the throttle, really special and unlike any car I have driven before. That old cliche about the car 'talking to you' actually makes sense. Actually the only other cars I can think of that gives me this level of feed back are the Mono and a Caterham, and they are both much more compromised in other ways. How did Porsche do that?
Why does no one go on about the gearbox? The quality of the gear shift, meaty with a hint of notchiness yet silky smooth, and the perfectly matched clutch action and lack of drivetrain shunt is as impressive as the steering.
The sound of course, throaty yet not too much. Like your dog who will lick you playfully, yet you are aware that he could choose to bite your arm off if he wanted.
It coped with a trip to B&Q to pick up 88kg of gravel at the weekend, so it's practical as well.
I'm seriously considering cancelling my order for the EV6 GT, this might be a keeper.
I fitted the Mr12Volt bluetooth adaptor at the weekend and also replaced the climate control switches that had the usual horrid sticky paint, I've ordered some more PCM knobs as well.
Things I don't like so far:
It would be nice to have a track forward/back button on the steering wheel.
Why don't the steering wheel controls work when the ignition is off?
I find it hard to tell if I have locked the car or not as there is only one door lock button on the remote and no visible indicator in the car.
People in (probably leased at twice the price of the 997) SUV's won't let you in at junctions ;-)
Things I like:
The steering feel is amazing, I'm learning things about roads that I have driven for years. It's really confidence inspiring along side the ability to rotate the car on the throttle, really special and unlike any car I have driven before. That old cliche about the car 'talking to you' actually makes sense. Actually the only other cars I can think of that gives me this level of feed back are the Mono and a Caterham, and they are both much more compromised in other ways. How did Porsche do that?
Why does no one go on about the gearbox? The quality of the gear shift, meaty with a hint of notchiness yet silky smooth, and the perfectly matched clutch action and lack of drivetrain shunt is as impressive as the steering.
The sound of course, throaty yet not too much. Like your dog who will lick you playfully, yet you are aware that he could choose to bite your arm off if he wanted.
It coped with a trip to B&Q to pick up 88kg of gravel at the weekend, so it's practical as well.
I'm seriously considering cancelling my order for the EV6 GT, this might be a keeper.
Zumbruk said:
Irritating, isn't it?
Yup, I find myself walking back to check the handle which makes everyone around think I'm just being precious I had occasion to drive the Honda into London today which was a nice opportunity to compare the two.
Both are very, very special cars. The Honda feels much more 'exotic', it's lower and you have that sensation of sitting at the tip of an arrow. The looks are more dramatic especially in the red/ black combination. The engine noise is closer behind you and has a mechanical whine which turns into a wail as you rev it and the VTEC kicks in. In short it feels like a 90's supercar.
The 997 by contrast feels shorter and narrower (it isn't) and more 'normal' but also just 'right' in its balance. The power steering makes it much easier to park.
The gear change in the Honda is much lighter and switch like, as is the clutch, but the 997 feels deliciously weighty and slick. There's no right or wrong they're just different and both equally effective.
As I mentioned the 997 has more low down torque, but the Honda revs more freely.
The biggest difference is the steering. Bearing in mind that I know the Honda much better (17 years!), I can see why road testers of the day complained that the NSX had numb steering. It doesn't but what it does have is a central area of reduced feel which means that when driving straight, or beginning a corner, you get very little feel. As you turn sharper and the steering weights up it begins to talk to you and then you can judge the cornering grip in a way that must have left Ferrari owners of the day scratching their heads. The NSX gives you feedback when you need it, otherwise it leaves you in peace. I took the NSX to a track recently and was astonished at how easy it was to drive quite hard. I don't think I would have been as brave in the 997.
The 997 by contrast talks to you constantly.
I suspect this was a deliberate decision by Honda, to filter out the feedback when you don't need it , and then then feed it in as you start to require the feel. that makes it a more relaxing and confidence inspiring drive. Porsche I think went for a different approach where the steering talks to you the whole time, like a chatty friend.
I think you could jump in an NSX and drive it faster sooner, while the 997 would take longer to learn. I think that both engineering teams have looked at the same problem and come up with their own individual solutions, and have achieved exactly what they set out to. Both are deeply impressive and complimentary. I wouldn't say one was better than the other at all.
As a daily driver the 997 wins hands down, certainly over the non PAS NSX, but the NSX is marginally more of an event to drive.
And given the relative values the 997 is an absolute bargain. If I had to choose just one to keep as a daily driver it would probably be the Porsche.
Slippydiff said:
This ^ (though with the caveat that any air cooled car will be on another level altogether when compared to a 996) and by the same token, I wouldn't be drawing too many conclusions on the 997's steering/suspension at this early stage, because once CG have been through the car and fettled its suspension, it will quite possibly be an altogether different car (in a good way)
I'm booked into CG in a couple of weeks. The car has new discs pads and tyres so a good starting point I hope. It feels pretty good already though.legzr1 said:
Marley71 said:
indicators flash once for open, twice for locked on mine.
Same here.The cars booked into CG the week after next
Now the honeymoon period has worn off my thoughts have changed a bit.
It’s even better than I first realised
I got to use it in seats folded luggage carrying mode. I repeat it’s a very clever piece of packaging.
Just got back from visiting Center Gravity. My what an experience that was!
Chris is a thoroughly delightful guy and his knowledge of Porsche's and suspensions physics is encyclopaedic.
He did a pre-geo test drive of the car, explaining how the route he uses has various road types and surfaces to allow different aspects to be tested. You could already see from the drive what might need looking at in terms of tracking,
Next he did basically a full mechanical inspection of the whole suspicions and underbody components including all the notorious 997 coolant pipes (not what I had expected from a geo appointment). It revealed that my car had actually been really well looked after, which was good to know. He also replied grease to the various bushes etc to protect them
Next he checked the geo, and surprise surprise it showed exactly what he had demonstrated in the test drive, how did he do that?
Then a (very) detailed chat about me, and my experience, driving style and where I wanted to use the car before settling on a geo target.
Once he had done that a further test drive and I could feel the difference at once, the car is more planted and stable, giving me more confidence (a slight high speed instability being my only concern before.)
He wants to have feedback and will change anything within 3/12 if you want and you get a full report of course.
More expensive (but not much) than at Quick Fit, but worth every penny. I'm looking forward to some country B road driving this weekend.
It was a 2 hours drive each way but I'm very glad I made the effort.
Chris is a thoroughly delightful guy and his knowledge of Porsche's and suspensions physics is encyclopaedic.
He did a pre-geo test drive of the car, explaining how the route he uses has various road types and surfaces to allow different aspects to be tested. You could already see from the drive what might need looking at in terms of tracking,
Next he did basically a full mechanical inspection of the whole suspicions and underbody components including all the notorious 997 coolant pipes (not what I had expected from a geo appointment). It revealed that my car had actually been really well looked after, which was good to know. He also replied grease to the various bushes etc to protect them
Next he checked the geo, and surprise surprise it showed exactly what he had demonstrated in the test drive, how did he do that?
Then a (very) detailed chat about me, and my experience, driving style and where I wanted to use the car before settling on a geo target.
Once he had done that a further test drive and I could feel the difference at once, the car is more planted and stable, giving me more confidence (a slight high speed instability being my only concern before.)
He wants to have feedback and will change anything within 3/12 if you want and you get a full report of course.
More expensive (but not much) than at Quick Fit, but worth every penny. I'm looking forward to some country B road driving this weekend.
It was a 2 hours drive each way but I'm very glad I made the effort.
Another benefit is that it always takes me 6 months at least before I know and trust a new (old) car, you never know what’s lurking. A proper PPI plus a CG work over fast tracks that process. I feel I have a pretty good handle on this cars and what, if anything, it needs to keep it in good working order. Very reassuring.
ATM said:
If you have 19 inch then almost everyone says the PS4S is a great tyre. The PS4 is a different tyre. PS4S generally not available in sizes below 19 inch but PS4 available alongside PS4S in some sizes of 19. Don't get them confused as they are different.
Thank you. I'll probably try some PS4S next time.Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff