992 Turbo S issues-Right to reject
Discussion
Hi all
I bought a brand new Turbo S in December 2023 from an OPC and was initially so pleased with it. Three weeks later, a chassis system fault appeared and the car went back to them and it was fixed.
Last week, the same fault reoccurred and I've now lost all confidence in the car, so following legal advice, via my insurer, I've decided to reject the car in line with the Consumer Rights Act 2015, under the final right to reject, as it's less than six months old and they've had one chance to fix it. I could have rejected it in the first 30 days, but felt it only reasonable to assume it was a one off, so gave the dealer a chance to repair it.
I know cars are incredibly complex machines, but I don't expect problems with a new premium car. My Audi RS3 was bought new a year ago and I've had no problems, nor with my wife's one year old Mini Cooper S, again bought from new.
I know the law is on my side and although my solicitor said I have the right to request a full refund, that the dealer can make a reasonable reduction for the mileage I've done-2500 miles.
My question is whether there's any written guidance anywhere as to what is reasonable, or if anyone on here has experienced this situation, regarding agreeing an allowance? The dealer will have a different opinion to me! Which magazine suggests between 20-40 pence per mile is reasonable?
Let me stress the car is lovely to drive and I didn't take the decision lightly but with the six months period looming, when I lose the final right to reject argument, I don't have confidence in it anymore.
I've got broad shoulders, so if you think I'm being unreasonable, please say so, but any guidance regarding the allowance would be much appreciated.
I bought a brand new Turbo S in December 2023 from an OPC and was initially so pleased with it. Three weeks later, a chassis system fault appeared and the car went back to them and it was fixed.
Last week, the same fault reoccurred and I've now lost all confidence in the car, so following legal advice, via my insurer, I've decided to reject the car in line with the Consumer Rights Act 2015, under the final right to reject, as it's less than six months old and they've had one chance to fix it. I could have rejected it in the first 30 days, but felt it only reasonable to assume it was a one off, so gave the dealer a chance to repair it.
I know cars are incredibly complex machines, but I don't expect problems with a new premium car. My Audi RS3 was bought new a year ago and I've had no problems, nor with my wife's one year old Mini Cooper S, again bought from new.
I know the law is on my side and although my solicitor said I have the right to request a full refund, that the dealer can make a reasonable reduction for the mileage I've done-2500 miles.
My question is whether there's any written guidance anywhere as to what is reasonable, or if anyone on here has experienced this situation, regarding agreeing an allowance? The dealer will have a different opinion to me! Which magazine suggests between 20-40 pence per mile is reasonable?
Let me stress the car is lovely to drive and I didn't take the decision lightly but with the six months period looming, when I lose the final right to reject argument, I don't have confidence in it anymore.
I've got broad shoulders, so if you think I'm being unreasonable, please say so, but any guidance regarding the allowance would be much appreciated.
Yes, twice. The salesman thinks I'm being unreasonable (well he would) based on the complexity of the car and after the first fault in January, they offered a track day at Silverstone(never heard anymore!) I'm sure the dealer won't want to accept the car back, as it's expensive for them.
acwh said:
Who are you dealing with at the OPC? If you haven’t you need to be in dialogue with the dealer principle.
I’m a little surprised as to the legal advice you’ve had based upon the post above. In these situations you would be expected to give the supplier reasonable time to solve the issue. One attempt feels light. I get the proximity to the six month statutory limitation, but that could be negotiated with the OPC.
I would get in front of the DP ASAP.
An email went to the DP on Thursday, copied to the salesman. The DP on leave, but their sales manager has replied to advise he's passed my email to their legal team. The CRA does say you only have to give one attempt, before rejecting. Good point about negotiating on timescale, as I've stopped using the car, because they can't look at it for a month!I’m a little surprised as to the legal advice you’ve had based upon the post above. In these situations you would be expected to give the supplier reasonable time to solve the issue. One attempt feels light. I get the proximity to the six month statutory limitation, but that could be negotiated with the OPC.
I would get in front of the DP ASAP.
acwh said:
The CRA says this with caveat. That being the supplier cannot prove the fault wasn’t there when new.
This will be a drawn out and ugly affair. I would recommend a face to face with the DP or their deputy if timescales dictate, as soon as you can.
What outcome are you looking for? Is it money back to buy something else or ?
Ideally I want my money back, less a reasonable allowance for the mileage covered. I'm happy to meet their DP or deputy, but my mind really is made up.This will be a drawn out and ugly affair. I would recommend a face to face with the DP or their deputy if timescales dictate, as soon as you can.
What outcome are you looking for? Is it money back to buy something else or ?
bennno said:
Was it financed? In which case you are rejecting it back to the finance company presumably?
ID wager with the values in freefall they'd be very keen to avoid taking it back, as much as youd be keen to get a full value refund.
Not financed, paid for in cash, by faster payments. Didn't pay by credit card, as low credit limit. I wish I'd upped my limit to pay this way.ID wager with the values in freefall they'd be very keen to avoid taking it back, as much as youd be keen to get a full value refund.
darreni said:
I'd suggest that the dealer will claim they successfully fixed the original fault & that why it has not reappeared. They will likely suggest the current fault appearing some months later is not a continuation of the original & you are therefore required to allow them the opportunity to rectify.
As per Chieb post, the same fault has reappeared, so they can't have fixed it? They've had one opportunity, this would be a second attempt. Also two other faults up, PADM and engine control. They're probably connected to the chassis fault.garystoybox said:
funboxster said:
Not financed, paid for in cash, by faster payments. Didn't pay by credit card, as low credit limit. I wish I'd upped my limit to pay this way.
Even if you pay £1 deposit on the credit card and the balance as cash you have full protection. Horse bolted and all that.Anyway, what did they say was wrong with the car the first time the issue came up?. Don’t think a single reoccurrence would put me off. Maybe more reasonable to given them one more chance and try and get a written extension in the right to reject?
Thanks again for the further replies. To summarise some of the extra points raised:
No, I'm not looking to get out of the depreciation issue. I want to stress I bought the car, because I wanted one and planned to keep it for two years., but I've lost confidence in the car. I know cars are an easy way to throw money away. The car was advertised with a £14k discount. It had £20k of extras on it.
I'm taking the emotion out of the issue. A car, in my mind, is no different to buying say, a premium product. If the product went wrong twice in three months and the supplier had had a chance to repair once, I'd reject as not of satisfactory build quality. Wouldn't you? I'm guided by cars I've owned which have never given any problems during ownership.
Would I accept another TS? Yes, but it would need to be new, of the same spec(or better) and a colour acceptable to me. As some of you have said, this could turn out a long drawn out affair.
The DP is back this week, so hopefully, he'll be ringing me and yes, the salesman is not responding to my emails of record, ie, I've stopped driving the car, as of last week, due to the fault.
I have history with this issue. In 2018, I rejected a McLaren bought new after one year of ownership, having experienced lots of electrical and starting problems with it, from about nine months old.
From my first rejection letter, the dealer agreed to buy back the car after two weeks, for the list price, less the extras, so lost £20k, having owned for one year and put 5k on the clock. Perhaps I was lucky there. Again, I saw the McLaren as a product and took emotion out of my thinking.
No, I'm not looking to get out of the depreciation issue. I want to stress I bought the car, because I wanted one and planned to keep it for two years., but I've lost confidence in the car. I know cars are an easy way to throw money away. The car was advertised with a £14k discount. It had £20k of extras on it.
I'm taking the emotion out of the issue. A car, in my mind, is no different to buying say, a premium product. If the product went wrong twice in three months and the supplier had had a chance to repair once, I'd reject as not of satisfactory build quality. Wouldn't you? I'm guided by cars I've owned which have never given any problems during ownership.
Would I accept another TS? Yes, but it would need to be new, of the same spec(or better) and a colour acceptable to me. As some of you have said, this could turn out a long drawn out affair.
The DP is back this week, so hopefully, he'll be ringing me and yes, the salesman is not responding to my emails of record, ie, I've stopped driving the car, as of last week, due to the fault.
I have history with this issue. In 2018, I rejected a McLaren bought new after one year of ownership, having experienced lots of electrical and starting problems with it, from about nine months old.
From my first rejection letter, the dealer agreed to buy back the car after two weeks, for the list price, less the extras, so lost £20k, having owned for one year and put 5k on the clock. Perhaps I was lucky there. Again, I saw the McLaren as a product and took emotion out of my thinking.
David W. said:
I’d kill to have a bit more detail on the chassis system fault. Is it a warning light, does the car go into limphome mode, is it underivable and needed roadside recovery? Ordinarily it sounds like it should be fixable and in my 16+year experience the Porsche warranty system works very well resetting back to zero on a replacement part. Can’t see how you have lost confidence.
It just says chassis system fault, then adapted driving required. It doesn't go into limp mode, not undriveable or needs recovery. They couldn't fix it after one go, why will they be able to sort at second attempt? As I've stated, emotion is taken out of this. It's a product that, imo, is not of satisfactory build quality, hence loss of confidence in car/brand. I've had two Boxsters from new, with no issues during ownership.I'm not rejecting because of depreciation issues, but perceived reliabilty of a premium product.. My Audi RS3 is one year old, with no issues from new. My wife had three Mini Cooper S' from new, each for three years. No problem again with them.
darreni said:
cseven said:
I assume the value offered would be trade (not retail?) in which case see what opc cars match yours in spec and mileage and knock 15k off?
Think I would just let them fix the car
If you can achieve rejection, the dealer is obliged to refund the purchase price less a mutually agreed amount for mileage during ownership. Think I would just let them fix the car
I know that I'm not, because 30 days have expired, so into 30 days to 6 months period (final right to reject) and therefore reasonable reduction (to both parties) for miles covered.
I didn't buy the car to be a garage queen, but to use and I travel to Devon a lot from Sussex, so 350 miles round trip, hence the 2.5k miles. I gave the dealer 14 days to respond to my email from 11 April.
I'm not expecting my full purchase price back and never have.
maz8062 said:
This is the second time that the OP has rejected a car - there’s a pattern emerging; buy brand new car, enjoy for a period with one eye on the period of time during which the lemon law can be called and then do so just in time at the hint of a fault. If the OP genuinely loves the car he’d give Porsche another opportunity to fix it - for as long as it takes provided he/she gets a courtesy car while they’re doing so.
If we all did what the OP has done twice now, the car companies would go out of business or design parts to last for a shorter period of time.
A little harsh, but you're entitled to an opinion. I'm more than happy to let them have another go at fixing,IF, the clock stops and if the same problem reoccurs, I can reject. If we all did what the OP has done twice now, the car companies would go out of business or design parts to last for a shorter period of time.
I've had many cars over the years, probably 20-30 and have rejected two. If the car works, without reoccurring faults, I keep them for two years and change.
Again, a big thanks to all for the varied replies, some sympathetic, others not. If I was a serial rejector having realised very quickly the TS wasn't for me, I would have thought my prayers were answered when the fault light occurred within 30 days.
I could have just rejected it and got a full refund. But I didn't. I gave them a chance to fix and just thought, well I'm unlucky, let's hope it doesn't reoccur.
I'm happy to work with the DP on a solution, equitable to both and said same in my letter. Another car, same or acceptable colour and spec, that's fine. If not, I expect them to reduce the refund via an allowance for mileage, but pursued the rejection option, in case they can't fix this.
I could have just rejected it and got a full refund. But I didn't. I gave them a chance to fix and just thought, well I'm unlucky, let's hope it doesn't reoccur.
I'm happy to work with the DP on a solution, equitable to both and said same in my letter. Another car, same or acceptable colour and spec, that's fine. If not, I expect them to reduce the refund via an allowance for mileage, but pursued the rejection option, in case they can't fix this.
Pit Pony said:
Not that I'd ever be in the market to buy a brand new car, let alone a porsche, but one thing occurs to me.
This free track day at Silverstone, which the OP hasn't got.
You'd not want to be risking your own car on a track. Are they offering the use of something from their own stock with zero financial risk if you crash it, or f
k the gearbox?
Thought not. And taking your own car would presumably invalidate the warranty ?
I probably didn't make myself clear. The track day offered (but not received) was at their experience centre, using their cars. I'd never track my own car. This free track day at Silverstone, which the OP hasn't got.
You'd not want to be risking your own car on a track. Are they offering the use of something from their own stock with zero financial risk if you crash it, or f
k the gearbox?Thought not. And taking your own car would presumably invalidate the warranty ?
ags11 said:
What actually was the first fault?
I think you need to clarify if the second one is the same?
It’s perhaps a tad extreme to reject on only the second attempt, that’s what the warranty is for.
On the flip side, l get the 6 month dilemma, especially if you are unfortunate enough to have a Friday afternoon build - it does and can happen.
Probably on balance though one fault isn’t enough to suggest so. I guess that’s why it’s essential to know what the faults diagnosed as.
If they don’t actually know, that’s different gravy, I’d probably agree with your stance at that point…
The fault is presenting exactly the same as the first time- Chassis system fault, adapted driving required, along with, now, PADM and engine control faults, so additional ones. The manual doesn't advise what ADR means, just contact the dealer. I think you need to clarify if the second one is the same?
It’s perhaps a tad extreme to reject on only the second attempt, that’s what the warranty is for.
On the flip side, l get the 6 month dilemma, especially if you are unfortunate enough to have a Friday afternoon build - it does and can happen.
Probably on balance though one fault isn’t enough to suggest so. I guess that’s why it’s essential to know what the faults diagnosed as.
If they don’t actually know, that’s different gravy, I’d probably agree with your stance at that point…
Edited by ags11 on Sunday 14th April 19:19
I've dug out the service docket for the first fault. It says C125193 Roll stabilisation system failure and C104400-Basic setting active faults stored, calibration required and a cost of £285 to fix, which obviously I didn't get charged for.
The service advisor, when asked what that meant, said it's probably a sensor issue.
I think cars are very emotive subjects, especially to us petrolheads, but they're still products. Whether you believe me or not, I do love cars. Before buying the TS, I had an Aston Martin DB 11 for over five years. I had no problems with it, loved it and kept it. I only sold it as I was worried it would start costing a lot in repairs.
If this was a £200k watch I'd bought that wasn't working correctly, I'd be querying my purchase decision. Emotion has to stay out of it. If I let them have another go at resolving, I'll be then getting in the car, turning the ignition and keeping my fingers crossed no more occur.
As some have said, let's see what the DP/dealer says.
15HN said:
I went through what you went through on my new Porsche i.e. fault in first 3 months, then again and again. They did not know how to fix it so it kept reoccurring, moreover it was dangerous. The dealer eventually accepted a rejection but it helped that I was a lawyer as initially they wanted to treat it as a trade in.
To answer your question about the usage figure. This was a point of contention as this figure hasn't really been defined. To be clear the law says this is a usage figure not a depreciation figure. My matter came down to money (as most things do) hence the dealer wanted to use a higher figure and I naturally wanted to use a lower figure. The 45p comes from HMRC and it's difficult to argue against this as this is most HMRC will allow for usage. In my case I received various finance quotes before purchasing the car. All the quotes had the same Porsche pence per mile figure irrespective of the mileage allowance/terms hence it was difficult to argue against this. If you go to the Porsche website you should be able to see what Porsche finance use as additional pence per mile on a Turbo S. If you also look at Ombudsman decisions they rarely go over 45p per mile. In my view it should not be any higher than the 45p and other manufacturers use a much lower figure e.g. BMW and consider they have some £150k+ highly depreciating EVs for sale.
The other thing you should consider is how dealers/manufacturers work. Porsche GB will make a contribution to the dealer to help them take the car back as ultimately they are responsible. If you've only done 2500 miles then even if it's £1 you're probably not worried.
What you need to consider is that its you that will have to live with the fault when the car is out of warranty and its you that will have to live with the fact that the fault may still be present when its time to sell the vehicle.
Thanks so much for your informative post 15HN, much appreciated. As you say, the allowance figure a dealer can deduct for usage is not defined in the CRA 2015, so a mutually agreed figure would need to be settled upon. I had the HMRC figure in the back of my mind, when if you use your own car for work purposes, that's the max you will get paid per mile.To answer your question about the usage figure. This was a point of contention as this figure hasn't really been defined. To be clear the law says this is a usage figure not a depreciation figure. My matter came down to money (as most things do) hence the dealer wanted to use a higher figure and I naturally wanted to use a lower figure. The 45p comes from HMRC and it's difficult to argue against this as this is most HMRC will allow for usage. In my case I received various finance quotes before purchasing the car. All the quotes had the same Porsche pence per mile figure irrespective of the mileage allowance/terms hence it was difficult to argue against this. If you go to the Porsche website you should be able to see what Porsche finance use as additional pence per mile on a Turbo S. If you also look at Ombudsman decisions they rarely go over 45p per mile. In my view it should not be any higher than the 45p and other manufacturers use a much lower figure e.g. BMW and consider they have some £150k+ highly depreciating EVs for sale.
The other thing you should consider is how dealers/manufacturers work. Porsche GB will make a contribution to the dealer to help them take the car back as ultimately they are responsible. If you've only done 2500 miles then even if it's £1 you're probably not worried.
What you need to consider is that its you that will have to live with the fault when the car is out of warranty and its you that will have to live with the fact that the fault may still be present when its time to sell the vehicle.
Thanks once again for today's posts. I've stirred a hornets' nest, I fear, but I will certainly keep you updated.
I was talking to a friend today, who was the owner of a local Mazda dealership, before selling up. I told him to wear his owner's hat and don't pull your punches. He felt I had a very good case to reject, but that I should contact Porsche HO Customer service. I'm nervous of doing this though, as that would undermine the dealer, before they've had a chance to respond, which was by 25 April.
When I told him the dealer couldn't look at it until 2 May, so a month from emailing them on 2 April about the return of this fault, he said that was not acceptable, especially as I'm not now using it and, as an owner of a business, he would have been getting the car in much sooner.
I do stick by my maxim, that it's not unreasonable for me to expect a £200k product to work and to be of satisfactory build quality.
I was talking to a friend today, who was the owner of a local Mazda dealership, before selling up. I told him to wear his owner's hat and don't pull your punches. He felt I had a very good case to reject, but that I should contact Porsche HO Customer service. I'm nervous of doing this though, as that would undermine the dealer, before they've had a chance to respond, which was by 25 April.
When I told him the dealer couldn't look at it until 2 May, so a month from emailing them on 2 April about the return of this fault, he said that was not acceptable, especially as I'm not now using it and, as an owner of a business, he would have been getting the car in much sooner.
I do stick by my maxim, that it's not unreasonable for me to expect a £200k product to work and to be of satisfactory build quality.
15HN said:
Funboxtser can I just check if the car is with you or the dealer as if it is with you then you must cease using it right away and deliver it to the dealer as part of your rejection or invite them to collect it and record the mileage so you cannot be accused of using it. To clarify if you are rejecting it then you must not use the car.
I did the same as you and did not involve GB unless I had to however the dealer encouraged me to report it to GB as it assists them in getting a manufacturer's contribution. What you could do is to communicate the issue to GB so it is on record and say that you wish to allow the dealer to resolve it amicably with you and that way your report is not hostile nor a complaint.
With me it took around 8-10 weeks (they will try and wriggle out of it and persuade you that they can fix the vehicle) hence I would ask the dealer or GB for a hire car if they are taking 1 month just to revert to you need a car for the interim. That is not unreasonable if they are saying wait a month for a response.
If you did have finance payments going out during the time they take to process the rejection then they would have to pay the interest - just explaining if anyone refers to this thread in the future.
I have friends who are DPs and they say what they will do in a rejection situation is to heavily discount a replacement car to retain the customer. That is very likely to be possible on a Turbo S. Better they sell another unit as opposed to having you go elsewhere.
There is one alternative under the CRA2015 (Section 24). You could negotiate a price reduction for the fault as an alternative to the refund.
Thanks for your further advice. The car is with me, but in my email to the DP, I asked them to collect it, but did also offer to return it, if necessary. My email clearly states the mileage of 2.5k. I also sent with my email a separate word document, detailing the issues experienced with the car and timelines and that also states I stopped using the car after 2 April. I did the same as you and did not involve GB unless I had to however the dealer encouraged me to report it to GB as it assists them in getting a manufacturer's contribution. What you could do is to communicate the issue to GB so it is on record and say that you wish to allow the dealer to resolve it amicably with you and that way your report is not hostile nor a complaint.
With me it took around 8-10 weeks (they will try and wriggle out of it and persuade you that they can fix the vehicle) hence I would ask the dealer or GB for a hire car if they are taking 1 month just to revert to you need a car for the interim. That is not unreasonable if they are saying wait a month for a response.
If you did have finance payments going out during the time they take to process the rejection then they would have to pay the interest - just explaining if anyone refers to this thread in the future.
I have friends who are DPs and they say what they will do in a rejection situation is to heavily discount a replacement car to retain the customer. That is very likely to be possible on a Turbo S. Better they sell another unit as opposed to having you go elsewhere.
There is one alternative under the CRA2015 (Section 24). You could negotiate a price reduction for the fault as an alternative to the refund.
An excellent post above from Forester. To provide more context, I bought the car as I drive to Devon a lot and elsewhere in the UK. I’ve wanted one for a long time and I finally had the means. I haven’t had buyer’s remorse, just disappointment in the product, due to the issues experienced. I’ve reiterated to the dealer in writing that I stopped using the car on 2 April, when the second fault occurred and also confirmed the mileage. It’s sitting in the garage on a trickle charger, now unavailable to me. I also said I would be happy to meet the DP, if necessary, so I’m trying to be as reasonable as possible, whilst still retaining my right to reject. The issue is sitting with their legal team but I asked for a response by 25 April, so giving them 14 days to reply.
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