Supercars.. Base vs Ultimate variants .... Really ?
Discussion
We were discussing the Aventador on a separate PH thread when the following point came up indirectly :
‘Are the ‘’ ULTIMATE ‘’ versions of the same supercar model actually worth the grossly inflated prices that they command over the base versions ? ‘
OR
Are we being taken for a very , very , long ride by the Manufacturer’s PR Dept , the Motoring Press , whose journalists have to earn their daily crust on a regular and continuous basis , and the second hand car traders and speculators ?
This applies to every supercar marque , but let me start with Lamborghini .
Is the Countach QV really that much better ?
Is the Murcie SV really that much better than the base version that the Motoring press raved on about , at its debut in 2001 ?
You would expect some evolutionary improvements over an 8 year period , but were the improvements sufficiently revolutionary to justify the circa 250% difference in price that is currently being demanded on the 2nd hand market ?
Ditto the Diablo and the Aventador SV and SVJ variants cf the base variants
( An exception is the Miura SV , where the separation of the engine and gearbox lubrication was a very significant and necessary mechanical improvement over the base version . Also the aerodynamics were less dangerous , but you would reasonably expect that cars released in this millennium to have had this rather important point sorted out before release .... Audi TT shusshh )
Because , if you look at the underlying mechanics of these variants , they are pretty much the same with relatively minor tweaks .
Do you really think that a 80 Kg difference makes any difference in a ROAD CAR , which itself weighs about 1600-1800 Kg ?
(You can get yourself a very nice , genuinely lightweight , track car for £15 K )
The base cars will do 95% of what the ultimate cars will do for a fraction of the price ( bragging rights excepted ) .... the mechanical specification dictates that this is the case
Just trying to explain this by saying ‘supply and demand’ ( which of course is always the case ) doesn’t delve deep enough , nor does it answer the original question above
I think that we are being taken for fools ( by PR and Press ) with these variants !!
Or is this simply the fodder that we are being thrown , and expected to swallow , by the second hand market traders and speculators ?
‘Are the ‘’ ULTIMATE ‘’ versions of the same supercar model actually worth the grossly inflated prices that they command over the base versions ? ‘
OR
Are we being taken for a very , very , long ride by the Manufacturer’s PR Dept , the Motoring Press , whose journalists have to earn their daily crust on a regular and continuous basis , and the second hand car traders and speculators ?
This applies to every supercar marque , but let me start with Lamborghini .
Is the Countach QV really that much better ?
Is the Murcie SV really that much better than the base version that the Motoring press raved on about , at its debut in 2001 ?
You would expect some evolutionary improvements over an 8 year period , but were the improvements sufficiently revolutionary to justify the circa 250% difference in price that is currently being demanded on the 2nd hand market ?
Ditto the Diablo and the Aventador SV and SVJ variants cf the base variants
( An exception is the Miura SV , where the separation of the engine and gearbox lubrication was a very significant and necessary mechanical improvement over the base version . Also the aerodynamics were less dangerous , but you would reasonably expect that cars released in this millennium to have had this rather important point sorted out before release .... Audi TT shusshh )
Because , if you look at the underlying mechanics of these variants , they are pretty much the same with relatively minor tweaks .
Do you really think that a 80 Kg difference makes any difference in a ROAD CAR , which itself weighs about 1600-1800 Kg ?
(You can get yourself a very nice , genuinely lightweight , track car for £15 K )
The base cars will do 95% of what the ultimate cars will do for a fraction of the price ( bragging rights excepted ) .... the mechanical specification dictates that this is the case
Just trying to explain this by saying ‘supply and demand’ ( which of course is always the case ) doesn’t delve deep enough , nor does it answer the original question above
I think that we are being taken for fools ( by PR and Press ) with these variants !!
Or is this simply the fodder that we are being thrown , and expected to swallow , by the second hand market traders and speculators ?
Edited by carspath on Wednesday 11th December 07:15
Thank you for your contributions, and I have to say that I agree with every point made thus far .
DanPhoto.... interesting comment re the aesthetics , and the following supports what you say
Re the Murcielago , Luc Donkerwolke’s original LP 580 design was apparently held in high regard because it closely followed the Bauhaus design ethos.
The gentleman ( whose name eludes me just now ) who modified Donkerwolke’s design for the LP 640 , said in an interview that the design team were essentially forced to make the LP 640 more dramatic in appearance to differentiate it from the original , and to justify the new variant .
So the LP 640 , which had genuine mechanical changes over the original LP 580 , had its aesthetics modified in a case of ‘form following marketing ‘ , rather than form following function . The Bauhaus purity was essentially sacrificed .
DanPhoto.... interesting comment re the aesthetics , and the following supports what you say
Re the Murcielago , Luc Donkerwolke’s original LP 580 design was apparently held in high regard because it closely followed the Bauhaus design ethos.
The gentleman ( whose name eludes me just now ) who modified Donkerwolke’s design for the LP 640 , said in an interview that the design team were essentially forced to make the LP 640 more dramatic in appearance to differentiate it from the original , and to justify the new variant .
So the LP 640 , which had genuine mechanical changes over the original LP 580 , had its aesthetics modified in a case of ‘form following marketing ‘ , rather than form following function . The Bauhaus purity was essentially sacrificed .
Its interesting to hear that owners with first hand experience of these supercar variants share some of my sentiments .
Over the course of a ten year development cycle , one would expect the final variant to be better in at least some respects .
What is troubling is that some dealers and journalists peddle the hypocrisy that the ''ultimate '' versions are worth the gross mark-up , and in doing so , wrongly influence potential owners who have saved hard to get their dream car .
( I can entirely appreciate that a collector might want an ''ultimate '' variant purely for its rarity --- although I would prefer to upgrade to a different model or different marque whose technical or historic value genuinely warrants the extra cost )
Dealers do this peddling for the money , but why do the journos indulge ?
Over the course of a ten year development cycle , one would expect the final variant to be better in at least some respects .
What is troubling is that some dealers and journalists peddle the hypocrisy that the ''ultimate '' versions are worth the gross mark-up , and in doing so , wrongly influence potential owners who have saved hard to get their dream car .
( I can entirely appreciate that a collector might want an ''ultimate '' variant purely for its rarity --- although I would prefer to upgrade to a different model or different marque whose technical or historic value genuinely warrants the extra cost )
Dealers do this peddling for the money , but why do the journos indulge ?
The following is copied from the PH General News article by Dan Prosser , ( Aventador SVJ Roadster vs. Huracan Evo Spyder ) , and I am not sure that Dan could possibly have meant what he has written in his closing paragraph :
'' I can count on one hand the number of really memorable drives I've had in Lamborghinis. It's rare that I actually connect with them. But in a pair of Lamborghini supercars that have been tweaked and refined almost beyond recognition during their lifetimes - plus with roofs that come away and, most importantly, in the habitat they long for - I'm pleased to say that number has increased by two. ''
1) '' tweaked and refined almost beyond recognition ''
Just the sort of journalistic license that beggars belief , and leads to suspicion of the writer's motives .
It cannot , almost by definition , possibly be true for a journalist driving a car sensibly on UK roads , even at 1& 1/2 times the National Speed Limit , to perceive a total transformation of its character .
Either the initial base car was really terrible , or the new ultimate variant is so wonderful , that it defies reality .
I wish that journalists would not indulge in hyperbole , for the sake of print .
2) '' really memorable drives''
This statement beggars belief beyond pleading and even praying !!
I can honestly say that I can remember something truly memorable from every single drive of the admittedly limited V12 Lambos that I have driven .
Approaching the car is daunting , even after 20 years .
Getting in is an event .
Starting it up makes the heart thump -- mainly because you don't know if it will .
And you still haven't even moved an inch .
Engaging first gear is a mechanical joy - firm but not hard . ( or the E-Gear clicking in --- will the actuators play ball on this occasion ? )
You have to allow 20 miles or 20 minutes for the engine oil temperature gauge to even begin to move off its stop , and you need to keep the revs low during this time , so you have to be considerate to your fellow road users and let them by , which takes care and attention , and is in itself a memorable part of the driving experience .
You have to wake the beast up gently and slowly .
And these cars only wake up past a certain engine and road speed - and each and every drive requires you to get to that , before you can even begin to experience the car - otherwise best leave it in the garage , nice and clean , which is what I do a lot anyway - they really are not daily drivers .
And once you have done all that , the car's character changes constantly . depending on engine and road speed --- everything here demands your constant attention , and is truly memorable !!!!!
The visibility backwards ( blue flashing lights ) , and sideways , is atrocious , and the width is far far too wide , for UK B roads ( and why even bother taking a V12 on a motorway ? ) -- so these 2 factors alone make every drive memorable .
You would need to be half asleep , or more accurately comatose , to think otherwise .
I have a huge amount of respect for Dan and his writing , and envy ( in the nicest possible way ) his good fortune in having access to a wide variety of the most tasty of cars , but on this occasion I think that he is mistaken , and I would counter that every moment in a V12 Lambo is truly memorable , and a privilege ( I have very little experience of the V10's )
'' I can count on one hand the number of really memorable drives I've had in Lamborghinis. It's rare that I actually connect with them. But in a pair of Lamborghini supercars that have been tweaked and refined almost beyond recognition during their lifetimes - plus with roofs that come away and, most importantly, in the habitat they long for - I'm pleased to say that number has increased by two. ''
1) '' tweaked and refined almost beyond recognition ''
Just the sort of journalistic license that beggars belief , and leads to suspicion of the writer's motives .
It cannot , almost by definition , possibly be true for a journalist driving a car sensibly on UK roads , even at 1& 1/2 times the National Speed Limit , to perceive a total transformation of its character .
Either the initial base car was really terrible , or the new ultimate variant is so wonderful , that it defies reality .
I wish that journalists would not indulge in hyperbole , for the sake of print .
2) '' really memorable drives''
This statement beggars belief beyond pleading and even praying !!
I can honestly say that I can remember something truly memorable from every single drive of the admittedly limited V12 Lambos that I have driven .
Approaching the car is daunting , even after 20 years .
Getting in is an event .
Starting it up makes the heart thump -- mainly because you don't know if it will .
And you still haven't even moved an inch .
Engaging first gear is a mechanical joy - firm but not hard . ( or the E-Gear clicking in --- will the actuators play ball on this occasion ? )
You have to allow 20 miles or 20 minutes for the engine oil temperature gauge to even begin to move off its stop , and you need to keep the revs low during this time , so you have to be considerate to your fellow road users and let them by , which takes care and attention , and is in itself a memorable part of the driving experience .
You have to wake the beast up gently and slowly .
And these cars only wake up past a certain engine and road speed - and each and every drive requires you to get to that , before you can even begin to experience the car - otherwise best leave it in the garage , nice and clean , which is what I do a lot anyway - they really are not daily drivers .
And once you have done all that , the car's character changes constantly . depending on engine and road speed --- everything here demands your constant attention , and is truly memorable !!!!!
The visibility backwards ( blue flashing lights ) , and sideways , is atrocious , and the width is far far too wide , for UK B roads ( and why even bother taking a V12 on a motorway ? ) -- so these 2 factors alone make every drive memorable .
You would need to be half asleep , or more accurately comatose , to think otherwise .
I have a huge amount of respect for Dan and his writing , and envy ( in the nicest possible way ) his good fortune in having access to a wide variety of the most tasty of cars , but on this occasion I think that he is mistaken , and I would counter that every moment in a V12 Lambo is truly memorable , and a privilege ( I have very little experience of the V10's )
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