Tesla S - or - Why can't everybody else...?
Discussion
So all the mainstream car manufacturers are spending billions and billions to produce platforms. It's such an expensive business that the platforms need to be scalable and modular to cover a whole range of models, with rivals co-operating on JVs - or even just buying in - platforms from each other.
Yet Tesla, on a relative shoestring, manage to produce a complete car. Not just a complete car, but one that breaks new technical ground AND is amongst the best of the sector to drive. And it's their very first ever attempt at a platform, too.
WTF? How? Where have Tesla found such a cache of seriously top-notch chassis and suspension and NVH and whateverelse engineers? What've they been doing up until now?
Or is there somebody being utterly ignored, jumping up and down at the back shouting as loud as they can about the Emperor's sartorial choices?
Yet Tesla, on a relative shoestring, manage to produce a complete car. Not just a complete car, but one that breaks new technical ground AND is amongst the best of the sector to drive. And it's their very first ever attempt at a platform, too.
WTF? How? Where have Tesla found such a cache of seriously top-notch chassis and suspension and NVH and whateverelse engineers? What've they been doing up until now?
Or is there somebody being utterly ignored, jumping up and down at the back shouting as loud as they can about the Emperor's sartorial choices?
kambites said:
...and threw money at the project.
That's the thing. They didn't.The public estimates of development cost are $400m for the entire car.
PSA and GM are reckoned to have spent over €600m on just one platform.
There's rumours of VW missing profit targets because of just the development overspend on a platform.
AnotherClarkey said:
It is a gamble - the current estimated cost of the battery is $30,000ish. Either you have faith that the prices will halve by the time you need a replacement in 10+ years time (not an unreasonble assumption) or you pay up front.
Will you still own the car in ten years?Is the prepayment transferable between owners?
What will it add to the resale value?
Clivey said:
I wouldn't compare it to a petrol
By which, of course, you mean "petrol or diesel". Well, them's the only choices. So by not comparing it to one, you're not comparing it to anything.Clivey said:
they depreciate because of UK fuel costs, tax etc. etc
No, they depreciate because people won't pay the same for an old car as a new one. The UK isn't really comparable to other countries because we sit on the wrong side of the car to make used cars internationally portable, which is what props used values up in other European countries.Clivey said:
and the people looking at this in the UK will typically be comparing it to rivals like the top-of-the-range diesel Germans. - The residuals of those are much higher than the petrol equivalents.
Small detail - a high-spec 10yo diesel 5-series is still only worth a small proportion of that pre-payment towards the new battery.Anyway, they aren't.
Of 236 petrol 10yo+ 5-series on Autotrader, only one is over £5k (excluding the armoured one...). Only six are between £4k and £5k.
Of 97 diesel 10yo+ 5-series on Autotrader, only one is over £5k. Only seven are between £4k and £5k.
But, whilst this is all interesting, it gets away from the original question...
How come Tesla can develop a complete, seemingly ground-breaking and excellent car for a fraction of what the mainstream spend to develop a ho-hum same-old-same-old platform alone?
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Sunday 15th December 18:26
Kawasicki said:
The competence of engineers doesn't change much from company to company. Whether or not the management listens to them really, really does.
So every other senior management within the entire motor industry is so massively incompetent as to close-on triple the cost of a development project?swisstoni said:
Apart from the stunning tech, what amazes me is that the styling of the thing is so good.
Most newcomers can't get this right and even the Famous Names get it very wrong a lot of the time.
It's a bit cut'n'paste. Jag XF arse, Maserati nose, all finished with a Vauxhall grille with an Audi bar through it?Most newcomers can't get this right and even the Famous Names get it very wrong a lot of the time.
Clivey said:
...a car that costs under a fiver to fill up? Who's going to argue with that?
Who do you buy your electricity off?90kWh battery, at ~15p/kwh = £13.50. Sure, it's a lot less than diesel or petrol, but it ain't "less than a fiver".
It's also worth remembering that from a domestic 13A 230v socket, it's going to take 30hrs to fully charge.
thatdude said:
What is the distance one could realistically travel on a full chage (given use of radio, lights, air-con / heater, heated seats etc etc etc etc)?
The official US EPA range for the 85kWh battery pack is 265 miles, or 208 miles from 60kWh.That'll bear roughly the same resemblance to "real world" figures as any official figures ever do.
thatdude said:
I could even have one for my 100-mile round commute, and recharge overnight on the "smaller" battery, or every other night on the "larger" battery
Not off a domestic 230v supply, you wouldn't. 30hrs to fully recharge the large one at 13A - before losses.If you get a three-phase 415v supply in, then an 85kWh battery pack would recharge in a theoretical 6.5hr (before losses) pulling 32A.
amstrange1 said:
It's not hard to plug in every night for 10 hours though, and that should be enough for circa 100 miles.
Before losses, 10hrs on 230v 13A would give you just under 90 miles. I'll let you guesstimate those charging losses - but I'd be surprised if they're less than 25%. Down-rate it to 10A to provide a bit of headroom before the fuse goes, and you're down to 55 miles from 10hrs plugged in.8hrs in the office car park, too? Yes. But just think about how many cars there are in that car park, then multiply that by 10A - plus, of course, the installation costs for all those charging poles.
Clivey said:
http://www.teslamotors.com/charging
The "High Power Wall Connector" promises 58 miles of range per hour of charge.
So on 240v, it reckons 20kW. That's just under 85A... There's usually a 100A main fuse coming in to the house, so - no - it wouldn't necessarily need your power supply to the house upgrading. Just don't turn too much else on - or even the oven and a power shower simultaneously - whilst the car's plugged into it.The "High Power Wall Connector" promises 58 miles of range per hour of charge.
Oh, and I know for a fact that the transformer up a pole in our garden, which serves six houses and a farm, is "only" 50kW...
amstrange1 said:
I used to do ~65 miles of winter driving (i.e. PTC heater turned on, demist on) for 6-7 hours worth of charging through a BS1363 3-pin 13A plug when racking up validation miles on an EV I worked on. Charger efficiency was >90%, though you'd waste a bit more energy than that if it was significantly below freezing and battery heating was required - but the losses were nowhere near the 25% you claim in UK ambients.
I did say it was a guesstimate... <grin>amstrange1 said:
Most OEMs will de-rate to 10A charge current through a BS1363 plug, but it's not because the fuse pops at 13A - it's due to issues with plug/socket compatibility and heat dissipation. Several of the OEMs found various combinations of plug/socket used at 13A ended up melting around the live pin after a few hours - despite all tested parts being compliant with the British Standard. If you talk to BEAMA today they'll still tell you that 13A continuous is fine through a BS1363 plug, but the automotive industry doesn't agree!
I can well believe that.amstrange1 said:
I can't find any vehicle efficiency figures for the Tesla S on their website
I was going by the EPA figures earlier - 265m/85kWh, 208m/60kWh - which is a bit over 0.3kWh/mileamstrange1 said:
but VW's e-Up!
It's very niche of VW to aim something like that at the Yorkshire market specifically...amstrange1 said:
is 11.7kWh/100km - or 0.19kWh/mile.
Feels about right, given the different sizes. It's roughly the diesel mpg ratio you'd expect.amstrange1 said:
If you assume a pessimistic 85% charging efficiency that gives you 0.22kWh/mile, so to do 100 miles we need 22kWh which at 10A @ 230V we can do in about 9.5 hours.
Yup.amstrange1 said:
Either way, my 10 hours for 100 miles isn't exactly ridiculous, even if a Tesla S might need a bit longer at 10 amps.
Agreed.amstrange1 said:
We had 10-off 3kW charge points installed in a multi-storey without needing any infrastructure changes. Clearly if/when EV uptake increases there will need to be some infrastructure improvements for workplace charging infrastructure, but seeing as the government/OLEV have just signed-off £500m for EV funding, it's fair to say that grants (such as the existing PiPs) are likely to be available to support this. I don't think even the green-minded Committee on Climate Change expect us ALL to be driving EVs to work (their optimistic utopia was something like 40% EV market penetration by 2030), so we won't all need a charge point there!
And the power stations behind it all? We're already heading for a shortage of generation capacity in a year or two, at current <ba-doom-tish> usage levels. Start to ramp that up...Then there's the infrastructure needed to support banks of "80% in 30 min" fast chargers at m'way services...
Clivey said:
Remember though that this is Tesla's first attempt at an "everyday car". - If they've done this well right off the bat, what's the next model, or the model after going to be like?
And this is why I asked the original question. How, exactly, can a bunch of newbies manage to do something apparently so damn good for so little money (relatively speaking)? What is EVERY other manufacturer doing so badly wrong, some to the point of bankruptcy because they don't think they can afford to develop new models?Interesting though all the diversion into the finances and charge rates etc has been, we're no nearer answering that question...
AnotherClarkey said:
I think in the most simplistic terms it comes down to the fact that the established industry players either fear or do not value disruptive innovation
No, I'm not talking about the fact it's a big electric car. That's the "disruptive innovation" bit. I'm talking purely about the basic engineering. The platform/suspension/NVH etc.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff