Porsche Taycan - first 'drivers' EV?

[TheDeuce]

First affordable drivers EV at least..

I see an army of Model S fans on PH but this new car seems to be getting little attention on here - worries me slightly as I find it quite appealing. I see in a recent survey people were keener on the Model S still, which surprises me in a way, but equally I'm not surprised at all - Tesla has the Apple effect it seems.

Anyhow, to me it seems quite simple. Technically the Model S is fastest on paper. But it's also just a slightly sporty family car with a ridiculously quick 0-60 time for bragging rights. The Porsche seems engineered ground up to actually be a true performance car. The sort of car that isn't worried if the Tesla is a couple of lengths ahead off the line, because on a real road/track, the difference would soon be made up dynamically.

I suppose the debate over real word speed/performance will rage until the two are put alongside each other on a track. I expect the results would be very close depending on the track - but that more driving pleasure would be found in the Porsche. In fact, this just might be one of the most widely appealing Porsche's ever if they get it right. It certainly looks as if they're going to price it aggressively, aggressively enough to bother their own traditional line up of cars even.

Anyone who has owned a scalextric set knows that power+motor easily equates to immense acceleration. Making an EV very, very fast isn't that difficult. It strikes me that for the first time, Porsche are about to combine that easy speed with a century of motor sport expertise and deliver a truly engaging EV experience in an affordable (relatively speaking) car.

Debate... I await the wrath of Model s owners

NB: Whilst I'm hopeful for the Porsche and will be in Frankfurt to see it on press day, I remain open minded and am also very interested in Model S. I'm leaning Porsche but only if it's revealed to be the car I hope it will be.

[TheDeuce]

RDMcG said:

Released tomorrow on streaming video by Porsche. Will be interesting

It is certainly balls on the table time at Porsche for their first mainstream EV!

I will be at Frankfurt auto show to have a look around the car on the stand, but I think the truth will be revealed in what they do/don't say in their launch presentation tomorrow.

To be frank, given the new BIK rates for the next few years, I'm ready to sign up unless they give me reason for doubt. I was so close with the Model S but I have driven one and it's just not the sort of car that lights me up. It's a middle of the road chassis with the power of a hypercar - in other words on most b-roads the average sporty driver is more likely to held back by nervousness about the the Model S power than be able to fully use it. I think it must be faster to have 'enough' power in a well sorted car than having too much power in a s slightly soft all rounder car.

[TheDeuce]

oop north said:

Without EV tech the Taycan wouldn’t exist at all - covered by panamera

Edited to add - I was very surprised to see on here the negativity towards the Taycan compared to Tesla. In a straight choice I would have the Taycan though in reality I wouldn’t have a Tesla model s anyway and wouldn’t have the Porsche cos it’s only four seats and am too old and fat to want to lie down to drive! A colleague has a panamera and it’s a long way down to sit in it! So I have an iPace - but would rather have something a bit more upright (though that would be rubbish for range) Land Rover style...

Edited by oop north on Wednesday 4th September 07:55

I do think it's largely a case of the Model S being a breakthrough car which many people quite understandably worship. In reality though, important as the Tesla is, the mainstream manufacturers can probably hit the EV market harder now they have had time to asses the market, design their own systems and had the benefit of watching the success of Tesla sales.

As for a more upright EV, you're about to get your wish perhaps. A Land Rover car will soon be available in all electric guise - I would assume it's going to be the Evoque only for this year, but that's pretty close to real range rover in it's current form, albeit obviously smaller..

No word as yet on whether (or being realistic, when..) a full fat Range Rover or Disco EV will turn up. It is bound to happen though, all those trendy celebs rolling in a Range Rover need a 'green' EV version ASAP if they're not to jump ship. Quite how JLR will tackle the issues of range/weight and sustained torque needed for a credible full size EV off-roader remains to be seen. My guess as yours is that the range will suffer, which probably won't be a factor for 90% of current Range Rover drivers so needn't delay such a car existing fairly soon.

[TheDeuce]

Porsche TV live stream here: https://crmmail.porsche.com/europe/A3AC99CE1BFAB6D...

YouTube stream here: https://crmmail.porsche.com/europe/A3AC99CE1BFAB6D...

2pm BST today

God I hope it's not a minger when we see it without the camouflage bits...

[TheDeuce]

Jasper3.0 said:

Affordable? £100k+ on release and bog standard @ £65k+?

Well, you're not getting a quicker Porsche for the same money. Let alone one with the bang up to date tech and interior, and 4 doors... The bog standard one is still going to be quicker than the i-pace I would think (unless Porsche engineers have missed the point somewhat..), so probably a shade under 4 seconds to 60. The hotter version they are saying 'under 3.5 seconds', although the press that have driven it are united in suggesting that it's probably well under 3.5 seconds - which it should be.

I said 'relatively speaking' it is affordable, and I think that's quite accurate. They clearly want this to sell fast in big numbers and as such I don't think there is any other way of buying a Porsche with the same power for the price-tag. Porsche themselves have made certain of that, they want this to be the big seller.

[TheDeuce]

Dave Hedgehog said:

its not just the performance figures its the fact its designed to be repeatable from start regardless of state of charge and to be able to handle the thermals of constant performance use

theres no 1 hour warm up needed like one of the P100Ds in a carwow vid to enable ludicrous mode

In a nutshell, it's a car designed by a company that's been doing it for decades. Does kinda make the Tesla look like a headline grabbing one trick pony, the performance figures of which are a little disingenuous as it does need to be warmed up and then managed... That's not strictly fair as there is so much good to say about the Tesla cars, but as a performance tool this Porsche is looking like the best engineered offering in the mainstream EV world, by quite some margin. It will do what it says on the tin, endlessly. That's what a 'drivers' car needs to do.

[TheDeuce]

sjg said:

Have been following the recent Taycan stuff - genuinely impressive performance credentials particularly for things like the Nardo test where it was constantly either cruising at 120+mph or 350kw rapid charging.

That charging is where the Tesla comparisons are interesting - Telsa make it easy to get all over Western Europe (or the USA if you're there) with their own network of very fast (120kw+) chargers, most of which have at least 8 bays and the busy ones even more. No apps, no RFID cards, just plug in and get a bill on your account for your usage.

Porsche's only equivalent is they're one of a few manufacturers funding Ionity, who are putting in the 350kw chargers that the Taycan can take advantage of. They've only just opened their third site in the UK, each have four bays. Bit better across Europe but nowhere near Tesla coverage. Beyond that you'll mostly be charging at 50kw or so on the same chargers that everyone else is trying to use.

Quick look on abetterrouteplanner - Calais to Naples less than half the chargers would be Ionity - need about 4 hours charging time en route in a Taycan Turbo. Model 3 Performance 2 hours 15 minutes, and it takes about 20 mins off the driving time because it can go a quicker route.

It'll get better I'm sure, but if you want to do a zero-emission cruise across continents in a quick car then Tesla has the upper hand right now.

Edited by sjg on Wednesday 4th September 14:09

Edited by sjg on Wednesday 4th September 14:10

It's true - Tesla have shrewdly bought themselves a pretty big advantage with their rapid roll out of chargers. I'm sure it will only be a matter of time before universal standards are adopted, but for now the Tesla is the easiest to keep juiced for sure.

On the other hand... for many people it's simply not an issue. I so rarely drive over 200 miles round trips in a single day that I should never need to charge it anywhere other than at home, overnight.

[TheDeuce]

SWoll said:

I was of the opinion the P100D doesn't need a warm up to match the Taycan's performance though, just for ludicrous modes 2.4 0-60?

The Model 3 Performance will match the Taycan's advertised time of 'under 3.5 seconds' without any ludicrous mode?

I like the Taycan a lot but all of this focus on straight line performance seems a little 1 dimensional for a sportscar manufacturer. Let's see how well it drives/handles as that should be where it leaves Tesla's well behind?

It already has left the Tesla behind - they've focussed on the entire performance package which is why they managed this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m31EgQkswg&fe... Which is frankly staggering and well worth a watch if you have 7 minutes and 42 seconds to spare

No Tesla is going to get close to that anytime soon! Within 8 miles of hard driving the Tesla has to limit it's power to avoid overheating, and beyond 10 miles hard driving the limit is extreme - hence, I think around 10 minutes is about as good as the Tesla's have managed at the Nurburgring. And to be honest, even before the performance limiter kicks in, a Model S isn't getting around the Nurburgring anything like as fast as the Taycan. The Model S just isn't built for performance from the ground up.

[TheDeuce]

RDMcG said:

Lost their sound though

Loved the car but the entire livestream was a shambles haha!!

Started with a voice over a video that already had a voice over... ummm.. OK. Then different languages spoken at once in places, even though the stream was split into different language versions, so that was just plain weird.

Several video freezes, delays and twice the sound dropped out. A complete mess. Whoever did the production is going to be a hot water I think..

Gorgeous car though, it was worth it!

[TheDeuce]

gangzoom said:

What negativity?

The Taycan looks great, but I've just speced the cheapest one for a cool £125k, the Model S we ordered before the X was £56k.

Sadly what we really need is cheaper EVs, not another toy for the mega rich, much like how the 'P' Tesla's have little relevance to most people shopping for a new car.

Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 4th September 18:46

This is hardly a toy for the mega rich... Those such cars are £1m+ these days, which IS crazy.

Actually for company car drivers this car, or the Model S is a bit of a bargain. There is as of April next year zero company car tax for bEV's, so in a way these cars are cheaper than a Prius... Obviously the lease cost will still be around £1000 per month, but for a higher rate tax payer they can't get that money out the company any other way without paying around 50% tax and NI, so these cars are in fact £500 a month through a company...

This is done of course to get Britain up to speed with EV's, and it will certainly work.

[TheDeuce]

REALIST123 said:

There are less than 1m company car drivers paying BIK. They change their cars every 3-4 years.

So at best, maybe 300,000 company cars per year; they won’t all go EV, as many Company cars are pretty low priced and many companies won’t pay the prices being asked for premium EVs. I doubt that more than a large minority will go EV, maybe 25% of them.

So, in round numbers, at best, BIK paying Company cars are maybe 10% of UK sales.

If they all went EV it would be significant, though not majorly so. But they won’t so it may not be that significant at all.

I very much doubt that it will ‘get Britain up to speed with EVs’ in any meaningful way.

IMO.

Hi from the F1 forums

I don't disagree with the maths, I'll accept you know your numbers. But it is clearly designed to have an effect, it's a massive tax break. It's also one I think designed for people such as myself and my business partner that operate their own business, and would love an expensive car to suddenly become effectively half price - which is what zero BIK achieves.

The thing is, I'm on the outside of the statistics you quote - there has been for many years no benefit in getting a company car, the general accountants advice is that it's better to pay for the car privately and claim mileage for work miles - this new BIK rate changes that massively. The new rates are the only reason I'm shopping for an EV to be honest. There are easily 1m+ micro businesses in the UK who are operated by people that have had no reason to get themselves a car through the company, but this really does change that. Obviously not all will take Tesla's and Porsche's, but they can take a far cheaper EV and almost get a free car - given that all related expenses can go through the company, vat is reclaimed and they won't pay a penny in tax for the cost of the car for a year, then just 1%, then 2%, then hand it back and look for the next tax efficient solution...

Back in the days when company cars were tax efficient they were far more prevalent - millions of jobs had a package that included a car, it was almost normal in many industries. That has since changed, but this zero BIK is blatantly an effort to get those that can back in to an company car, so long as it's EV over the next few years to boost the numbers on the road. There is no other reason why they would slash tax to zero on anything!

[TheDeuce]

gangzoom said:

I think your find very few people actually have £1000/month to spend on a car, you might, but the vast majority of people don't, even £500/month is a stretch for most to waste on any car. The Taycan to the majority of the UK car buying public might as well be £1million+.

I love what Porsche is doing, as ultimately what happens at Porsche drip down into the rest of the VAG group, but lets not pretend the Taycan is the mass market car to change EV ownership.

No, it's a mass market performance EV car, that is all I have said, and I stand by that. The only other performance bred EV's are astonishingly expensive.

I agree with the rest - we're all early adopters right now and the fact of the matter is that an extremely affordable EV could be produced that will still have the ability to slam you into the seat when you put your foot down, that's what electric motors can do.

As for £500 p/m being a waste for a brand new Porsche with £600hp... C'mon.. The fact for many that's not affordable doesn't make it a waste at all. It's clearly a fantastic deal for those that can. Try and find a none EV brand new 600hp car for less p/m!?

[TheDeuce]

RobDickinson said:

Porsche sell 5-10k Panamera a year in Europe, this will sell better and they are only doing what 20k a year so there will be a queue for them.

The Panamera will surely be killed off soon. It's an ugly thing that exists in a shrinking market segment. I think Porsche will respond to demand for the Taycan and increase production - they are already talking of a shooting brake version which in effect is a Panamera in EV form pretty much, so they at some point I suspect this will replace the Panamera and that will be the end of that.

Right now they're not going to talk about the future potential production rate because right now they're getting people to rush to sign on the line so they don't have to wait years to get the car. Once that rush is over, I fully expect that like most marques they will want to increase EV production and decrease ICE production in phased shifts - they have too really, the future is EV, they have to get more lines churning them out.

[TheDeuce]

RobDickinson said:

OK looks like for a £45k pa (1/3rd the vehicle cost) earner a Panamera turbo (£130k) would cost you ~£17,500 or so a year in BIk tax :O

Exactly!! And the Taycan would cost you... bugger all year one, and then a almost bugger all year 2 & 3!

This is why I'm not wrong to say it's 'cheap', relatively speaking. Admittedly a Tesla Model S is even cheaper... and some EV's with the new BIK become laughably cheap.

[TheDeuce]

RobDickinson said:

it depends what kid of car you want.

The £77k model S has a WLTP of 375 miles and far far more storage and the best charging network, and is plenty fast enough and built well enough (yes not as good as the Porsche..)

The porker will be a better drive I am sure.

It's not all about how fast though... For many drivers that would even consider such expensive cars, the driving experience is extremely important. I have driven a Model S and to be fair, it was far better than I expected - it's actually an above average all round well sorted car. But it's not a performance focused drivers car in a few important areas, and of course, the Porsche definitely is. Even I didn't expect it to go round the ring as quickly as it has though, that is truly impressive. Only a proper sports car could do such a time, and Tesla, even with the upcoming roadster, show no signs of making such a dynamically excellent sports car. Probably not least because their primary market is North America and they simply want different things from their 'sports' cars. They want the wallop in the back when you floor it, the Tesla does that! Then they want space, comfort, and powerful A/C. And driver aids, anything to relieve stress - the Tesla definitely has that. But to go fast on track or in the real world, or to feel connected to the road, you need so much more than acceleration alone.

Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 4th September 21:55

[TheDeuce]

REALIST123 said:

We shall see!

I can though think of a few reasons why they might slash this tax. One being that ‘they’ can then crow about what they’re doing to support their green commitment without actually giving too much up.

The thing is that we all agree that once there’s been a big swing to EV HMRC will be grabbing this tax back, so how long it will last is anybody’s guess!

It’s an interesting discussion. Another factor is that, in the UK, a lot of Company cars are low list price, probably below £20k.

The most popular is the Fiesta. In the top 5 are the Mini, Focus, Astra and Aygo.

How would the cost of say, an i3 or even a Leaf without BIK compare to a Fiesta with? Enough of an advantage to cause a rush to change?

Whatever happens, I doubt that Porsche will be looking to the UK CC market to secure their future but it will be interesting to find out!

Sure, Porsche are global and a UK tax break will not be a factor for them - although I'm sure the UK sales force will press the advantage to shoppers..

I think the rush change will be that people already privately paying for an average car, that trade through their own ltd. will realise that they can have a modern EV, with twice the price tag and the same monthly payments.

How long will it last?? Well, HMRC have set the rates for the next 3 years only, so I assume 3 years then it will sharply increase! Funnily enough, 3 years is a fairly typical lease/pcp timespan so I guess they know that, and they know that we know that... This is essentially a 'grab it while you can' deal. Which is fine, those of us that run our own little businesses are used to grabbing what we can and are well used to forever changing circumstances.

Anyway, as of April next year, if you run your own ltd, the fact is that if you get an EV you can get a car with roughly twice the monthly cost of your current car, and it won't cost you any more. That's going to have an effect on a lot of people that haven't even considered a company car for the last decade.

What is more - I'm working at the Frankfurt auto show and will be there on press day, it looks like by April next year there are going to be many more EV options for people to choose from, whatever type of car or budget, those that can benefit from zero BIK should be able to aim for a suitable EV.

[TheDeuce]

RobDickinson said:

Theres plenty of market for both is what I am saying, plenty of larger exec cruisers that never get driven on track etc.

TBH I doubt many taycan ever do either, its like the SUV craze, large and rugged for no reason other than the supermarket car park.

It's easier to experience the abilities of a sports car on any drive than it is to experience the abilities of a 4x4 though. I'm not claiming that 50% of Porsche drivers aren't just posing... But even the worst posers will fairly frequently find themselves on a wide open b-road and give it a nudge, rewarded by feeling the power and tightness of the car.

When a car sinks in to the road and gives you the confidence to go faster, you come home with a little smile on your face

[TheDeuce]

RobDickinson said:

TheDeuce said:

How long will it last?? Well, HMRC have set the rates for the next 3 years only, so I assume 3 years then it will sharply increase!

Heard it will go up 1% a year but nothing is set, typical business car is only held 2-3 years anyhow, and this will then flood the used fleet with EVs, during that time new EV prices will have dropped a lot.

It's set at 0% 2020, 1% 2021, 2% 2022. That's confirmed but beyond that no word. It will shoot up, no doubt.

So this is it - you want to play, arrange an EV for 2020 tax year. Be prepared to no longer want to or be able to afford it come 2023!

[TheDeuce]

RobDickinson said:

If you order one of these today when is it likely to turn up? sometime 2021 or later I think ?

Depends... What we don't know yet is how many, if any are allocated to the lease car providers - I have my eye firmly on that as I would rather lease through the company than purchase through the company.

Also, it is entirely possible that once the rush of initial orders is over, Porsche will announce that 'due to demand' they can deliver massively higher numbers of cars. It is after-all, best to make something rare initially if you want to secure the maximum number of orders early on.

I think sadly you're probably right, if you don't have a pre-order, then chances are it's at least a years wait for delivery. But the honest answer is, that we just don't know yet. I suspect the lease buyers will have some allocation that makes up a chunk of the pre-ordered cars, but as that chunk would be the only available cars expected to ship anytime soon, the rates probably won't be great...

If I can get one for £1000 p/m + vat or less by the new tax year, it's a done deal. If not I'll be very sad tbh, but there is the Model S which really is a good car, and I think a few new options will appear during the Frankfurt auto show.

[TheDeuce]

Cheib said:

I’ve placed a deposit ....if you want a Turbo S deliveries are most likely Jan...Turbo slightly later. I don’t want either I am waiting for the lower spec models which will be announced in due course and probably available second half of next year...maybe earlier No BIK for me, I am an existing Porsche owner, we do about 30k miles a year across our cars with a daily range of 200 miles being plenty for us.

I think within a month and probably less you will be looking at an 18 moth wait for a car at least.

Today was the first day you could place a deposit in the UK, we have different rules from other markets because of issues around GT car allocations in the past...hence why all the press about 20,000 deposits but none before today in the UK. Each Porsche dealer in the UK will get something like 60 cars annually so roughly 2500 cars which is about 10% of production. I think the residuals will be excellent for the first two or three years so even for me with no BIK these will be cheap cars to run when you look at cost to own for the quality of car it is.

Good point about the residual values - I expect this will be exactly the sort of car you can sell for +£10k the following day if you take an early delivery!

Also good residuals tend to do amazing things for competitive lease pricing - which could yet prove one of the fastest ways to get a UK car. It did for the i-pace.