A major little word of warning re. EV conversions
Discussion
As some of you know, I restored a 1960 Mini ditching the 850cc engine for an electric motor.
Unfortunately, DVLA said that because I drilled holes in the boot, it is now a modified kit-car.
They couldn't fault the conversion, but due to the holes my car needs an IVA test which it could never pass.
They refused to allow the holes to be welded up so this is terminal, the car is scrap.
This has now been reported in the press a little, by those who actually believe that it is real (it is a little like ''I married Elvis on the moon").
My MP has written 3 times and been fobbed off 3 times.
The British Classic car EV industry is in big trouble and trying to get a liaison going with the dept of Transport to establish a code of some sort to allow them to stay in business in light of this DVLA idiocy.
The holes I drilled were to safely mount the batteries. The conversion was designed by a Doctor of engineering and a degree qualified engineer, but over ruled as unsafe by a bureaucrat.
IMHO if DVLA get away with twisting their old rules to apply to the new issue of classic car EV conversions, then what is to stop them from popping up any car show, finding a car with a hole drilled, rusted or otherwise, and insisting it should have an IVA and then a Q-plate.
So if you or anyone you know is planning a conversion, be careful. My lovely Mini no longer has a registration and I'm not even allowed to convert it back to petrol, even if I thought that was ethical in light of the planet pollution problem!
Unfortunately, DVLA said that because I drilled holes in the boot, it is now a modified kit-car.
They couldn't fault the conversion, but due to the holes my car needs an IVA test which it could never pass.
They refused to allow the holes to be welded up so this is terminal, the car is scrap.
This has now been reported in the press a little, by those who actually believe that it is real (it is a little like ''I married Elvis on the moon").
My MP has written 3 times and been fobbed off 3 times.
The British Classic car EV industry is in big trouble and trying to get a liaison going with the dept of Transport to establish a code of some sort to allow them to stay in business in light of this DVLA idiocy.
The holes I drilled were to safely mount the batteries. The conversion was designed by a Doctor of engineering and a degree qualified engineer, but over ruled as unsafe by a bureaucrat.
IMHO if DVLA get away with twisting their old rules to apply to the new issue of classic car EV conversions, then what is to stop them from popping up any car show, finding a car with a hole drilled, rusted or otherwise, and insisting it should have an IVA and then a Q-plate.
So if you or anyone you know is planning a conversion, be careful. My lovely Mini no longer has a registration and I'm not even allowed to convert it back to petrol, even if I thought that was ethical in light of the planet pollution problem!
I am afraid common sense and precedents are pretty absent here!
The DVLA actually require camper van conversions to have windows cut out but they don't need any sort of test!
I am trying to spread the word a bit, my drilled holes are only as bad as a new wing mirrors, fog lights, better seatbelts and other period correct modifications........
The DVLA actually require camper van conversions to have windows cut out but they don't need any sort of test!
I am trying to spread the word a bit, my drilled holes are only as bad as a new wing mirrors, fog lights, better seatbelts and other period correct modifications........
Edited by bitsilly on Sunday 23 October 10:39
Thanks all.
The holes were for mounting a plate to mount the batteries. The plate was secured over the cut out box of the original battery so actually removed a stress concentration!
There are many firms doing conversions and you-tube stuff etc. Since I have been having this problem a number of the registrations you see on the TV have been deleted, and some of them are still listed as petrol.
If you are planning a conversion I would ask in detail how they plan on registering it afterwards.
Someone recently contacted me to say after over 2 years the DVLA 'reassessed' his case and said he needs an IVA.
I think they are cynically applying this nonsense to anything which has upset them in the past, but I am bias!
The holes were for mounting a plate to mount the batteries. The plate was secured over the cut out box of the original battery so actually removed a stress concentration!
There are many firms doing conversions and you-tube stuff etc. Since I have been having this problem a number of the registrations you see on the TV have been deleted, and some of them are still listed as petrol.
If you are planning a conversion I would ask in detail how they plan on registering it afterwards.
Someone recently contacted me to say after over 2 years the DVLA 'reassessed' his case and said he needs an IVA.
I think they are cynically applying this nonsense to anything which has upset them in the past, but I am bias!
Here is the original build thread, but you may have to ask to join the forum to see the photos (sorry Mk 1 moderators!).
https://mk1-forum.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3118...
I'll see about putting photos here...
https://mk1-forum.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3118...
I'll see about putting photos here...
No paperwork to speak of, just a letter and another refusing the appeal.
They would not let me see the inspectors report, even when I used FOI request, and also refused to let my MP see it.
The consensus is that they used an excuse to stop my conversion, if it wasn't holes it would be something else.
The EV industry are having all sorts of problems now too with refusals due to 'new problems'.
They would not let me see the inspectors report, even when I used FOI request, and also refused to let my MP see it.
The consensus is that they used an excuse to stop my conversion, if it wasn't holes it would be something else.
The EV industry are having all sorts of problems now too with refusals due to 'new problems'.
Sorry, I forgot
the failure is based on the kit car rules which give points for having original features and using original parts. Mine pretty much had maximum possible points except for the engine which I think deducted one point. Then they said because I had modified the chassis the chassis scored 0 out of 5.
So I lost too many points.
The modification was because 'material had been removed by drilling'.
the failure is based on the kit car rules which give points for having original features and using original parts. Mine pretty much had maximum possible points except for the engine which I think deducted one point. Then they said because I had modified the chassis the chassis scored 0 out of 5.
So I lost too many points.
The modification was because 'material had been removed by drilling'.
Dear moderator,
why did you remove my similar post on the Classic car section?.
Telling Classic car owners who my be planning to do an EV is in their interest.
More relevant perhaps than letting me tell EV owners of my experience.
Please can you re-instate the Classic car thread and delete this one if you have to.
If the twain shall never meet surely there is no harm.
Thank you
why did you remove my similar post on the Classic car section?.
Telling Classic car owners who my be planning to do an EV is in their interest.
More relevant perhaps than letting me tell EV owners of my experience.
Please can you re-instate the Classic car thread and delete this one if you have to.
If the twain shall never meet surely there is no harm.
Thank you
E63eeeeee... said:
While I feel quite sorry for people who've gone into something like this in good faith and got caught up in the bureaucracy, it seems fairly obvious to me that an EV conversion should have to go through some kind of IVA. Surely the existing type approval (or whatever the grandfathered-in equivalent for 60s cars might be) no longer applies once you've fundamentally changed the entire drive system. Just to take one example, filling the rear crumple zone - to the extent it exists on a mini - with batteries is quite a major change.
This smells a bit like DVLA bending the existing rules to breaking point to prevent what looks to them like attempts to exploit loopholes to allow potentially unsafe conversions, because the legislation hasn't kept up or been properly designed for the conversion scenario.
Actually I retained mini driveshafts, but yes I agree. I have started a petition to ask DVLA to do precisely that, sort out some proper new specific rules for this kind of thing, and stop twisting old rules, then applying them over zealously. The EV industry want the same thing so they can assess and move on.This smells a bit like DVLA bending the existing rules to breaking point to prevent what looks to them like attempts to exploit loopholes to allow potentially unsafe conversions, because the legislation hasn't kept up or been properly designed for the conversion scenario.
Is that up to DVLA to enable? I don't think so. Surely it's a DoT responsibility? They need to determine how to test EV conversions, or just say no it's not legal and never will be.
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A consortium of classic car converters are trying to liaise with the DoT and are having about as much luck as I am pinning it to someone who may make a decision!
walamai said:
OP, what was it that 'triggered' the inspection in the first place? I'm just embarking on a conversion myself, so this is really relevant to me.
My understanding was that if you do an engine swap (including to electric), that you just notify DVLA of the change and move on with your life. (Which I assumed is what all the conversion shops & youtuber's are doing.)
If however you do something which triggers the Radically Altered Vehicles points thing, then you would need to get an IVA inspection.
In your case it seems that somebody/something has decided that you've fallen foul of the "5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame" - just because of a handful of holes.
I'm curious what the somebody/something was in your case?
Out of interest also, why don't you think you could get the car through an IVA? I'm aware of the IVA requirement under 'Electrical Safety' to have "A test report to ECE R100.01". (I've enquired about that test cert, spoke to https://www.horiba-mira.com/ and they advised they can produce it for around £6.5k.)
Is that your issue, or something else?
An inspection was flagged as I could not specify the electric motors capacity in cc's.My understanding was that if you do an engine swap (including to electric), that you just notify DVLA of the change and move on with your life. (Which I assumed is what all the conversion shops & youtuber's are doing.)
If however you do something which triggers the Radically Altered Vehicles points thing, then you would need to get an IVA inspection.
In your case it seems that somebody/something has decided that you've fallen foul of the "5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame" - just because of a handful of holes.
I'm curious what the somebody/something was in your case?
Out of interest also, why don't you think you could get the car through an IVA? I'm aware of the IVA requirement under 'Electrical Safety' to have "A test report to ECE R100.01". (I've enquired about that test cert, spoke to https://www.horiba-mira.com/ and they advised they can produce it for around £6.5k.)
Is that your issue, or something else?
When we started the conversion we were of the same understanding.
As we couldn't say how many cc's the motor had, it was passed to the Kit cars dept. They didi their totting up and said because I drilled holes in the boot I had majorly modified the monocoque and so although I had max points in all areas (except the engine change -1) the holes too the monocoque from 5 to zero, so it failed.
And finally, to get a mk1 Mini through IVA, I would need to remove the external weld seams, the external hinges, the window catches the bumpers and so on, in a way mainstream manufacturers would. And that is only the projections rule, there are many others. The guy who did the conversion with me worked for Ford developing the electric Transit van for them, and made it super safe.
surveyor said:
If they will not accept an appeal, they do have an Ombudsman you can go to https://www.ombudsman.org.uk/making-complaint/what...
No idea if you are right or wrong OP.
Thanks, I’ll give them a try.No idea if you are right or wrong OP.
I managed to get the Office of information to at least rock the boat of the DVLA thanks to the much appreciated suggestion above!
They will ask for the release of the report that the DVLA based their insistence to take this car off the road.
It won't however ever explain why they don't allow me to weld drilled holes up to stop the destruction of a classic mini.
They are so under funded and under staffed they really couldn't care less about complaints. And some staff are loving being able to kill nice cars on technicalities.
That said, gawd knows why folk who hate cars apply for jobs at the DVLA!
Finally, there is an increasing pressure of evidence which is actually making some classic car publications sit up and realise that:
1) this death of a classic is actually happening because of drilled holes in its boot! OMG!
2) perhaps people should know about this nonsense and that they should possibly share!
They will ask for the release of the report that the DVLA based their insistence to take this car off the road.
It won't however ever explain why they don't allow me to weld drilled holes up to stop the destruction of a classic mini.
They are so under funded and under staffed they really couldn't care less about complaints. And some staff are loving being able to kill nice cars on technicalities.
That said, gawd knows why folk who hate cars apply for jobs at the DVLA!
Finally, there is an increasing pressure of evidence which is actually making some classic car publications sit up and realise that:
1) this death of a classic is actually happening because of drilled holes in its boot! OMG!
2) perhaps people should know about this nonsense and that they should possibly share!
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