Paid off HP early, dealership demanding more money
Discussion
I recently purchased a used Mitsubishi Outlander from a main dealership and initially took out a HP plan despite having the cash to purchase outright because of the incentives they were offering. These incentives were a deposit contribution and 2 years free servicing.
Having withdrawn from the agreement a few days ago (within the 14 day cooling off period) the dealer is now demanding we pay back the deposit contribution.
I asked the dealer to send over the term that specifically stated that we have to pay them back the deposit contribution and he sent me this paragraph which DOES exist in my agreement with Santander but does NOT appear in any paperwork I signed with the dealership:
"If you withdraw from this agreement and you have paid the cash price together with interest payable on that amount to us within 30 days title to the goods will pass to you on the same terms as would have applied had you not withdrawn from this agreement. Interest will be charged on the amount of credit at the daily amount shown on the front page of this agreement, beginning on the date when the amount of credit was provided and ending on the date the credit and accrued daily interest is repaid. You must pay us any amount that you owe to us following your withdrawal from this agreement on demand."
1. As this paragraph comes from my agreement with Santander, does this mean the dealer has no right to ask for the deposit contribution back?
2. Even if this paragraph does apply I can't see anything above that says I have to pay the deposit contribution back once I withdraw from the agreement?
I called Santander and as far as they are concerned we are square and there is nothing left to pay. I have asked for this in writing so I can send onto the dealer.
Would appreciate everyone's views on how to handle this and any past experiences of people that have been in this situation!
Thanks in advance,
Having withdrawn from the agreement a few days ago (within the 14 day cooling off period) the dealer is now demanding we pay back the deposit contribution.
I asked the dealer to send over the term that specifically stated that we have to pay them back the deposit contribution and he sent me this paragraph which DOES exist in my agreement with Santander but does NOT appear in any paperwork I signed with the dealership:
"If you withdraw from this agreement and you have paid the cash price together with interest payable on that amount to us within 30 days title to the goods will pass to you on the same terms as would have applied had you not withdrawn from this agreement. Interest will be charged on the amount of credit at the daily amount shown on the front page of this agreement, beginning on the date when the amount of credit was provided and ending on the date the credit and accrued daily interest is repaid. You must pay us any amount that you owe to us following your withdrawal from this agreement on demand."
1. As this paragraph comes from my agreement with Santander, does this mean the dealer has no right to ask for the deposit contribution back?
2. Even if this paragraph does apply I can't see anything above that says I have to pay the deposit contribution back once I withdraw from the agreement?
I called Santander and as far as they are concerned we are square and there is nothing left to pay. I have asked for this in writing so I can send onto the dealer.
Would appreciate everyone's views on how to handle this and any past experiences of people that have been in this situation!
Thanks in advance,
Don't get me wrong, I 100% understand why the dealer wants the money, they obviously would have got a payout from the finance company if I continued the finance.
I just can't bring myself to pay it if they don't have any concrete evidence to say it's legally binding that I have to.
Question is do I front it out and tell them where to go in the hope they will just give up or could this turn ugly if they decide to take me to court etc.
On the initial email we received they were already threatening debt collectors if we did not pay, I suspect this part of a scare tactic to get me to pay ASAP and not ask questions?
I just can't bring myself to pay it if they don't have any concrete evidence to say it's legally binding that I have to.
Question is do I front it out and tell them where to go in the hope they will just give up or could this turn ugly if they decide to take me to court etc.
On the initial email we received they were already threatening debt collectors if we did not pay, I suspect this part of a scare tactic to get me to pay ASAP and not ask questions?
Andy665 said:
Who provided the deposit contribution - Santander or the dealership?
If it came from Santander then Santander have the right based on the Terms and Conditions you have posted
If it came from the dealership and there is nothing in the Terms and Conditions from them stating that they have the right to reclaim then they do not have a leg to stand on
This is the strange bit, on the initial order form that I signed it says "Santandar" but on the invoice the dealer sent me since telling me I have to pay it says "Mitsubishi". Regardless it does not mention the dealer at all!If it came from Santander then Santander have the right based on the Terms and Conditions you have posted
If it came from the dealership and there is nothing in the Terms and Conditions from them stating that they have the right to reclaim then they do not have a leg to stand on
As soon as Santandar send over confirmation we owe nothing I will be forwarding this to the dealer with a strongly worded email politely telling them they will not be getting a penny more out of me as they have no legal right to do so.
Will keep this post updated as events unfold.
boyse7en said:
defblade said:
Szkoda said:
"If you withdraw from this agreement and you have paid the cash price together with interest payable on that amount to us within 30 days title to the goods will pass to you on the same terms as would have applied had you not withdrawn from this agreement.
IANAL, but to me as a layman what the dealer have sent you there is the exact opposite of having to pay anything extra/back/whatever.He hasn't paid the cash price, he has paid the financed price.
Still irrelevant to my case though, there is nothing in that paragraph that says anything to the contrary - i.e. the deposit contribution can be clawed back by the dealer if I withdraw from the agreement.
HTP99 said:
They get away with it as it is a deposit contribution as opposed to straight discount but it is a very fine line.
Rate of withdrawal does get monitored as the FCA have an interest in it and may come down on a manufacturer if the rate of withdrawal is unusually high as it can be classed as mis-selling, it is in the finance agreement T's &C's (for Renault and Dacia) that if you withdraw, you will be liable for any incentives that come with said agreement and they must be payed back, however this isn't acted upon but may well be in the future.
In the OP's case, Santander have said all's well, so I should imagine in this instance the deposit contribution was dealer funded as opposed to finance house or manufacturer funded, hence the dealer itself having an issue with it.
Strange thing is my signed order form says the contribution is from Santandar and the invoice I have says Mitsubishi?!Rate of withdrawal does get monitored as the FCA have an interest in it and may come down on a manufacturer if the rate of withdrawal is unusually high as it can be classed as mis-selling, it is in the finance agreement T's &C's (for Renault and Dacia) that if you withdraw, you will be liable for any incentives that come with said agreement and they must be payed back, however this isn't acted upon but may well be in the future.
In the OP's case, Santander have said all's well, so I should imagine in this instance the deposit contribution was dealer funded as opposed to finance house or manufacturer funded, hence the dealer itself having an issue with it.
There is actually an empty box on my order form for "Dealer Contribution" and a separate empty box for "Deposit Contribution".
Ok so the plot thickens...
Dealer has now sent over a terms and conditions document that I have never seen before that apparently is page 2 of the order form which has clause 14 which basically says I have to pay back the deposit contribution if I withdraw from the finance. I signed the order form initially at the Dealership and do not remember seeing this "page 2". Since then the order changed several times as they kept getting details wrong and every time they emailed over the revised order form it NEVER had page 2 attached to it. I have checked my emails to confirm this.
Having rechecked the order form there is a line that says "WE HEREBY AGREE TO PURCHASE FROM YOU SUBJECT TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS (including those overleaf)". So this does suggest there was a second page.
I have a feeling this is going to come down to my word against theirs BUT does anyone know if there is any FCA regulation that states if contracts are re-issued they must be in full each time? If this exists I think that should be enough to send them packing.
This may be me just overthinking things but having looked at this "page 2" it almost looks like they just whipped this document up to fight me with it - it is not on header paper, has a different font and text size as well. If this document always existed why haven't they referred to it up to this point? Conveniently the specific clause they are referring to is right at the end of document so even if this document has existed previously is it possible they just added this clause specifically to fight me with it? Seems a bit far-fetched but thought it was worth mentioning.
Thoughts please.
Dealer has now sent over a terms and conditions document that I have never seen before that apparently is page 2 of the order form which has clause 14 which basically says I have to pay back the deposit contribution if I withdraw from the finance. I signed the order form initially at the Dealership and do not remember seeing this "page 2". Since then the order changed several times as they kept getting details wrong and every time they emailed over the revised order form it NEVER had page 2 attached to it. I have checked my emails to confirm this.
Having rechecked the order form there is a line that says "WE HEREBY AGREE TO PURCHASE FROM YOU SUBJECT TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS (including those overleaf)". So this does suggest there was a second page.
I have a feeling this is going to come down to my word against theirs BUT does anyone know if there is any FCA regulation that states if contracts are re-issued they must be in full each time? If this exists I think that should be enough to send them packing.
This may be me just overthinking things but having looked at this "page 2" it almost looks like they just whipped this document up to fight me with it - it is not on header paper, has a different font and text size as well. If this document always existed why haven't they referred to it up to this point? Conveniently the specific clause they are referring to is right at the end of document so even if this document has existed previously is it possible they just added this clause specifically to fight me with it? Seems a bit far-fetched but thought it was worth mentioning.
Thoughts please.
Edited by Szkoda on Friday 8th March 11:03
Oh dear oh dear...
Not sure how I missed this but just digging through my docs and it turns out I DID get this page 2 as part of the original form and guess what? Clause 14 which the dealer is referring to does not exist AT ALL.
To add to this throughout the whole original "page 2" the terms "seller" and "buyer" are used. On the added clause the term "you" is used and it looks to be a different font which tells me this was hastily added.
I intend to throw the book at them but how far do I take this? FCA? Finance Ombudsmen? Would be grateful for views.
Not sure how I missed this but just digging through my docs and it turns out I DID get this page 2 as part of the original form and guess what? Clause 14 which the dealer is referring to does not exist AT ALL.
To add to this throughout the whole original "page 2" the terms "seller" and "buyer" are used. On the added clause the term "you" is used and it looks to be a different font which tells me this was hastily added.
I intend to throw the book at them but how far do I take this? FCA? Finance Ombudsmen? Would be grateful for views.
It's been a few hours now since I sent the email and I have not heard a peep from the dealer. Up to this point he has been replying within 10 - 20 mins so one of 2 things is happening:
1) They have an ace up their sleeve and are gearing up for a legal battle.
2) They are royally crapping themselves and have no idea what to do next.
I am confident we are more likely looking at option 2 so I guess at this point I give them at least until Monday for a response? I don't want to drop this until they have confirmed they accept what they have done. I imagine they will come up with some sort of excuse that the contracts changed after we signed them and as a "goodwill" gesture they will drop the pursuit.
Regardless will keep this post updated.
1) They have an ace up their sleeve and are gearing up for a legal battle.
2) They are royally crapping themselves and have no idea what to do next.
I am confident we are more likely looking at option 2 so I guess at this point I give them at least until Monday for a response? I don't want to drop this until they have confirmed they accept what they have done. I imagine they will come up with some sort of excuse that the contracts changed after we signed them and as a "goodwill" gesture they will drop the pursuit.
Regardless will keep this post updated.
Latest Update -
Have received an email from the dealer stating "I have passed this on to the relevant departments/managers for them to review".
Not really sure what to make of it other than maybe we will get an email in a few days basically saying someone higher up the chain has decided to let this go.
Have received an email from the dealer stating "I have passed this on to the relevant departments/managers for them to review".
Not really sure what to make of it other than maybe we will get an email in a few days basically saying someone higher up the chain has decided to let this go.
Sheepshanks said:
It's only £400 - it's hard to imagine it's that much of a disater for the dealer.
I was thinking more about breaking FCA/legal rules/legislation by deliberately editing signed contracts to save their own ass. I will be making a complaint to the dealerships head office and Mitsubishi UK but I don't plan on taking it further then that (not that they know that!)Sorry forgot to update this post!
Dealership head office came back to me half apologising and offering to "allow" me to keep the deposit contribution and giving me a £50 discount on the first service then £100 on the second one (I'm assuming the second one is a major service?).
They are actually making it sound like they are doing me a favour with this deal but I've told them to stuff it and have logged a complaint with the financial ombudsman with the recommendation that this goes to the FCA.
Will post back once I get a response.
Dealership head office came back to me half apologising and offering to "allow" me to keep the deposit contribution and giving me a £50 discount on the first service then £100 on the second one (I'm assuming the second one is a major service?).
They are actually making it sound like they are doing me a favour with this deal but I've told them to stuff it and have logged a complaint with the financial ombudsman with the recommendation that this goes to the FCA.
Will post back once I get a response.
xjay1337 said:
Is it really worth dragging everything through the mud?
Given that you have bought a car from the dealer and if you kick up a fuss you will likely get less in terms of favourable treatment in the event of faults, warranties, etc?
I did consider that but the principle still remains - why should a dealer get away with their (questionable) actions? It is only a small amount of money in the grand scheme of things but the online form to contact the financial ombudsman really wasn't that difficult so worst case scenario they are not interested in my case and it get's left at that.Given that you have bought a car from the dealer and if you kick up a fuss you will likely get less in terms of favourable treatment in the event of faults, warranties, etc?
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