Has my approved Rolls Royce been “clocked”? Please help
Discussion
So I have finally achieved a childhood dream and bought my first Rolls Royce but that’s where the fairytale ends......I bought a provenance approved car from Rolls Royce Manchester During lockdown and after reading the Provenance criteria from Rolls Royce thought everything would be as it should, how wrong I was........
It is reasonable to assume that as the car was a provenance approved car as stated it should meet the following criteria stated by Rolls Royce. “Our legendary and unrivalled attention to detail is no different for a previously-owned Rolls-Royce, than it is for the motor cars leaving Goodwood today. It begins with the selection of the Provenance motor car itself. We only feature those that have been meticulously cared for and maintained at the highest level, with an exhaustive written record to prove it.“
Exterior
There is significant damage to the paintwork on both sides of the car from stonechips which I have been advised cannot be repaired (photo)
The metal window trim on the nearside rear has damage on (photo)
Interior
The seat control button was damaged(photo)
The 2 chrome trims either side of the dashboard where the door close buttons are, were loose and one was cracked upon further inspection the guides underneath were also bent and damaged possibly as a result of the dashboard being removed (photo)
The chrome trim on the right hand side of the speedometer is loose possibly due to dashboard being removed (photo)
The dashboard has scrapes and damage where it has been taken out and replaced (photos)
The copper on the ashtray and drinks holder cover is pitted and damaged (photo)
There were numerous small tears on the leather (photo)
The drivers seat was badly worn and cracked and looks older than the mileage suggests (photo)
The drivers floormat is heavily worn and looks older than the mileage suggests (photo)
The steering wheel is shiny and looks older than the mileage suggests (photo)
The drivers seatbelt is worn and looks older than the mileage suggests (photo)
The drivers umbrella was worn and broken
There is no record from Rolls Royce of the dashboard being removed which concerns me as why would somebody remove the dashboard on a new car which is covered by a warranty? This was not to fit a tracker as that was fitted under the lower part of the dashboard and has been found and replaced with a newer version without removing the dash.
The cars service history is incomplete, The car had an indicated 10500 miles from new and the suggestion was that the previous owner did lots of small journeys accounting for more than normal wear and tear which would mean that the car should be seen more regularly however there is no record of the car being seen by rolls Royce until 21.01.20 some 2 years after purchase? Why would a car with complimentary services not have them done?
It has been suggested to me that this car may have had a blocker fitted to reduce the shown mileage and although hard to prove it would account for the issues above and this may well have been done without the owners consent if others had access to the car, alternatively it may be that the car has not been “meticulously cared for and maintained at the highest level”
An independent engineers report stated that : It is in my opinion that the reported damage present to this prestige vehicle is unusual for the age and recorded mileage.
Rolls Royce say my contract is with the dealer even though it is their provenance statement that the dealer has broken,, I sold 2 cars at a loss to buy it and a refund won’t cover my loss, Rolls Royce say it’s not down to them to sort it out........ so can anything be done to stop them promoting a provenance statement that their dealer did not follow.............
It is reasonable to assume that as the car was a provenance approved car as stated it should meet the following criteria stated by Rolls Royce. “Our legendary and unrivalled attention to detail is no different for a previously-owned Rolls-Royce, than it is for the motor cars leaving Goodwood today. It begins with the selection of the Provenance motor car itself. We only feature those that have been meticulously cared for and maintained at the highest level, with an exhaustive written record to prove it.“
Exterior
There is significant damage to the paintwork on both sides of the car from stonechips which I have been advised cannot be repaired (photo)
The metal window trim on the nearside rear has damage on (photo)
Interior
The seat control button was damaged(photo)
The 2 chrome trims either side of the dashboard where the door close buttons are, were loose and one was cracked upon further inspection the guides underneath were also bent and damaged possibly as a result of the dashboard being removed (photo)
The chrome trim on the right hand side of the speedometer is loose possibly due to dashboard being removed (photo)
The dashboard has scrapes and damage where it has been taken out and replaced (photos)
The copper on the ashtray and drinks holder cover is pitted and damaged (photo)
There were numerous small tears on the leather (photo)
The drivers seat was badly worn and cracked and looks older than the mileage suggests (photo)
The drivers floormat is heavily worn and looks older than the mileage suggests (photo)
The steering wheel is shiny and looks older than the mileage suggests (photo)
The drivers seatbelt is worn and looks older than the mileage suggests (photo)
The drivers umbrella was worn and broken
There is no record from Rolls Royce of the dashboard being removed which concerns me as why would somebody remove the dashboard on a new car which is covered by a warranty? This was not to fit a tracker as that was fitted under the lower part of the dashboard and has been found and replaced with a newer version without removing the dash.
The cars service history is incomplete, The car had an indicated 10500 miles from new and the suggestion was that the previous owner did lots of small journeys accounting for more than normal wear and tear which would mean that the car should be seen more regularly however there is no record of the car being seen by rolls Royce until 21.01.20 some 2 years after purchase? Why would a car with complimentary services not have them done?
It has been suggested to me that this car may have had a blocker fitted to reduce the shown mileage and although hard to prove it would account for the issues above and this may well have been done without the owners consent if others had access to the car, alternatively it may be that the car has not been “meticulously cared for and maintained at the highest level”
An independent engineers report stated that : It is in my opinion that the reported damage present to this prestige vehicle is unusual for the age and recorded mileage.
Rolls Royce say my contract is with the dealer even though it is their provenance statement that the dealer has broken,, I sold 2 cars at a loss to buy it and a refund won’t cover my loss, Rolls Royce say it’s not down to them to sort it out........ so can anything be done to stop them promoting a provenance statement that their dealer did not follow.............
had ham said:
That's a Ghost - and the Ghost wheels are typically quite mat in appearance when new, like this..
I think your car has a few more miles than 10.5k under its' belt unfortunately.
Unfortunately I agree but the dealer has gone into radio silence and RR telling me it’s dealers problem I think your car has a few more miles than 10.5k under its' belt unfortunately.
The Spruce Goose said:
i would getting an independent expert to validate your claims.
I did he agreed................My Observations as follows -
Vehicle condition -
O/S/F seat - Seatback leather is splitting.
O/S/F window trim - Insecure.
O/S dash clock trim - Insecure.
Centre upper dash leather - Split/damaged. O/S/R seat base - Leather is splitting.
N/S/R lower wing - Stone chips present. O/S/R lower wing - Stone chips present. O/S/R bumper corner - Scratched.
Centre front cup holder cover - Multiple chips.
Conclusion / Opinion:
In the engineer's opinion, based on evidence written, reported and observed during this assessment of the reported vehicle faults, the following can be concluded:
I can confirm the O/S/F seatback leather is splitting.
I can confirm the O/S/F window trim is insecure.
I can confirm the O/S dash clock trim is insecure.
I can confirm the centre upper dash leather is split/damaged. I can confirm the O/S/R seat base leather is splitting.
I can confirm the N/S/R lower wing has stone chips present.
I can confirm the O/S/R lower wing has stone chips present.
I can confirm the O/S/R bumper corner is scratched.
I can confirm the centre front cup holder cover has multiple chips present.
I can confirm that all of the above-listed damage /faults were present during today inspection.
It is in my opinion that the reported damage present to this prestige vehicle is unusual for the age and recorded mileage.
The Spruce Goose said:
Uptime of the media unit? That sounds promising I wonder who could look at that, thanks
Possible, but some ECUs use weird calculations to work out milage, and the number will be stored in other ECUs such as Airbag module, media centre ECU etc as a back up. You wouldn't be able to block them.
I've tried to search what system RR use, but a laptop and reader, you could analyse the ECUs, a expert would know what to look for.
Edit found a blocker online
https://mileageblocker.com/find-your-car/ols/produ...
Seems it says it does.
You could look at other ways, such as uptime of the media unit, e,g how many hours used, as a potential indicator. Some cars record loads of thing that would be useful to help you.
Possible, but some ECUs use weird calculations to work out milage, and the number will be stored in other ECUs such as Airbag module, media centre ECU etc as a back up. You wouldn't be able to block them.
I've tried to search what system RR use, but a laptop and reader, you could analyse the ECUs, a expert would know what to look for.
Edit found a blocker online
https://mileageblocker.com/find-your-car/ols/produ...
Seems it says it does.
You could look at other ways, such as uptime of the media unit, e,g how many hours used, as a potential indicator. Some cars record loads of thing that would be useful to help you.
Edited by The Spruce Goose on Friday 18th September 21:57
joropug said:
That mileage blocker is interesting especially as it plugs into the console .
Great ides thanks will get on to it
It's clear that car has been clocked, I'd definitely get formal with rolls.
Few things I'd also do:
-Search the registration on Google AND Google images
-If it had private plates do the same thing
-Try and find previous owner details and do some stalking, what is their profession, any photos of them in the car miles away (Europe or something).
Basically try and do some due diligence on the car even though it's after the fact that might support your claim. Don't contact the previous owner for obvious reasons.
Great ides thanks will get on to it
It's clear that car has been clocked, I'd definitely get formal with rolls.
Few things I'd also do:
-Search the registration on Google AND Google images
-If it had private plates do the same thing
-Try and find previous owner details and do some stalking, what is their profession, any photos of them in the car miles away (Europe or something).
Basically try and do some due diligence on the car even though it's after the fact that might support your claim. Don't contact the previous owner for obvious reasons.
Dave. said:
Not sure if Carly works with this or any other RR, but here's an example of what it can to in 1er.
Just looked but Carly for Rolls royce doesn’t do mileage
shame that would have been perfect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY9-kiJfLkE
Just looked but Carly for Rolls royce doesn’t do mileage
shame that would have been perfecthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY9-kiJfLkE
I honestly did not know that this sort of thing went on with Rolls Royce etc.... and perhaps a private seller or back street garage I would have been more alert but the rolls Royce statement makes you feel so assured that a remote sale during lockdown did feel safe..........the dealer is just not putting anything in writing which makes it even more suspicious and rolls Royce have said they are not liable as contract with dealer...... but surely they can’t make claims like they do about their approved used cars and then simply walk away?
Blue62 said:
An odd thread, buying a used car unseen will always carry a degree of risk, but at this end of the market it does seem strange that the dealer would go to ground.
Clocking is rife on high end cars, I know a guy who has been ‘working’ for prestige main dealers for many years, with the right software I’m told it’s impossible to detect. I’m looking at an expensive 2018 car that claims to have covered less than 4K miles, I will pay for an inspection, but there’s no foolproof way of knowing.
Clocking is rife on high end cars, I know a guy who has been ‘working’ for prestige main dealers for many years, with the right software I’m told it’s impossible to detect. I’m looking at an expensive 2018 car that claims to have covered less than 4K miles, I will pay for an inspection, but there’s no foolproof way of knowing.
SCEtoAUX said:
Presumably the satnav will have been reset and not show a whole bunch of previous destinations etc...
(I assume such a car has a satnav)
Tyres? Might be a clue there. 10k miles is probably original tyres territory, with a tell-tale amount of wear.
nothing on sat nav but the tyres...........date on tyres says week 24 2019 so they didn’t get the free service done, but did put new tyres on before you would expect??(I assume such a car has a satnav)
Tyres? Might be a clue there. 10k miles is probably original tyres territory, with a tell-tale amount of wear.
Julian Thompson said:
this is fantastic news, the car was never seen by the main dealer until it was sold back to them 2years later, missing its first and free service, why would you not take a new car in for its first service especially when the car would be telling them to? I was sold the car after reading this statement
“Our legendary and unrivalled attention to detail is no different for a previously-owned Rolls-Royce, than it is for the motor cars leaving Goodwood today. It begins with the selection of the Provenance motor car itself. We only feature those that have been meticulously cared for and maintained at the highest level, with an exhaustive written record to prove it.”
Okay so, let me try and open this up a bit.
BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
“Our legendary and unrivalled attention to detail is no different for a previously-owned Rolls-Royce, than it is for the motor cars leaving Goodwood today. It begins with the selection of the Provenance motor car itself. We only feature those that have been meticulously cared for and maintained at the highest level, with an exhaustive written record to prove it.”
Okay so, let me try and open this up a bit.
BMW and Rolls use a huge database called psdzdata which carries all of the coding that runs all of the cars in recent times. They’re changing it soon, but the OP’s car and your mates F30 are on this system, which in the workshop you use Bmw inpa and esys to interrogate and modify.
These systems are mind blowing the first time you see them. They have diagnostic detail and recording and monitoring capability beyond the wildest dreams of any old school mechanic. (They also actually talk the bmw technician through repairs step by step but that’s another story).
As a few people have touched on on here the system records everything. Miles are not just recorded in one module - these cars have multiple networks, never mind modules - there are literally multiple data buses working around the car. From memory my F80 has about 40 (!) computers which have memory. The system even records who connected to it, when, and what actions were taken. Fault code resets are recorded, elapsed time on everything, number of actuations on everything.
There is NO WAY. I mean really NO WAY that a simple mileage blocker is going to stop this juggernaut of data from recording because the car cannot run without all the modules reporting back without reporting a million fault codes. The blocker might block the mileage on the clock in that module, but give an hour to anyone with esys and ask them to find evidence of strangeness and they will find it for you.
Why didn’t BMW find it? Easy. It’s because it’s a massive program - it’s a bit slow and clunky and because of its size you don’t see anything unless you ask. If a car is in for service you go to the “CBS” section (condition based servicing) and you press buttons to reset the service counters. That’s it. There isn’t a great big warning box that pops up with an Arthur Daley icon if it suspects the car has been clocked! The person using esys would have to delve into things that a BMW dealer wouldn’t have business doing in the course of a service. Hell, they can’t even be arsed to update the software (new PSDZDATA) on cars when it’s available unless the client tells them and even then they moan because using esys for any length of time you also have to connect the car to a massive power supply because the current draw of all the computers up to run it destroys the battery in about 20 minutes.
So - remaps, clocking, changes. They’re all there to see if the person looking knows what to look at. It can’t be hidden.
So, OP, get someone to fire esys up and have a look at your car.
Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 19th September 09:42
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