Estate, 20k, ULEZ, not depressing

[otolith]

I spend a lot of time in Surrey these days, and the threatened expansion of the ULEZ has put my 2010 E350CDI estate on notice. I am rather fond of the thing, it replaced an E320CDI of which I was also fond, but it has been an unreliable money pit.

I like it because it’s comfortable and quiet and refined and spacious and quick enough, but I mostly bought it and its predecessor because I had a great big German Shepherd Dog. He’s no longer with us, and unlikely to be replaced. I still want an estate, and it needs enough rear legroom for a couple of teenagers, but maybe don’t need the biggest one I can buy. Usage is maybe 20 or 30 suburban miles a week and then 520 miles of motorway once a month.

I don’t particularly want a diesel.

I don’t particularly want a four cylinder car, or a petrol turbo.

I’m a little nervous about whether further restrictions are coming on currently low emission compliant diesels.

I am loathe to spend a chunk upgrading the Merc to come away with something which isn’t much newer or lower mileage, or which feels like a big downgrade. I don’t generally spend as much as this on my practical car, I resent it, but prices are silly at the moment and I want something nice and reliable.

So. Don’t want another E class.

Don’t need something as big as an A6 or 5 series, though wouldn’t rule them out.

Six cylinder petrol cars - S4s and A6s with the same engine are old and leggy and don’t feel like good value. 335i touring likewise, and scarce. Not seeing much else. The odd 3.0T Volvo?

Passat boring.

Superb doesn’t appeal.

Hot hatchback derived estates too small, often front drive, usually turbo 4, and a bit juvenile.

Jag XF 3.0 not Euro6, and Euro6 XF estate engines nasty.

It’s looking like I should probably test drive the 335d (great, straight six, good to drive, quick, decent economy, but diesel, not future-proof?) or the C350e (petrol, performance good, economy good, emissions good, PHEV, comfortable, refined on electric power, but nasty four pot turbo, heavy, very complex, reliability concerns (including the same air suspension fault my car is about to wallet-rape me for).

Anything I’ve missed?

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ninjag said:

Budget?

In the title, 20k

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Shiv_P said:

otolith said:

I don’t particularly want a diesel.

I don’t particularly want a four cylinder car, or a petrol turbo.

So you want an NA petrol 6 cylinder? That's very narrow

N/A or supercharged, six or more cylinders, yes, ideally. But people largely stopped buying those some time ago, and they no longer seem to depreciate worse than the diesel models. Things like the S4 and A6 3.0TFSI are older and higher mileage than I'd really like.

Realistically, I'm probably going to have to settle.

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ninjag said:

Sorry, I missed the budget in the title.

You could get into an S4 B8.5 with some haggling and maybe a tiny increase in budget. I would recommend late 2014 and 2015 so that it's the CREC engine with MPI.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022061768...

Yeah, have been looking at those. Without further budget creep (I was originally thinking of getting something for 10k-12k) they're 2014/2015 at best and 80k plus miles - the odd lower mileage, much older car.

The engine in the S4 is much more what I would like, but they don't look like great value for money compared to a 335D at similar mileage and three or four years newer or similar age and half the mileage - and which will have much lower running costs. That's really the dilemma - and this isn't really my fun car, I will still have the Elise, so there's a limit on how much added cost and risk I can take just for my subjective preferences.

[otolith]

It's annoying.

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ninjag said:

Tricky if running costs are also a factor, although the reasonably low mileage S4 I linked to should return you mid 30's with leisurely driving and maintenance/repair is pretty low as well. I had a 2015 330d (not 335d) and the engine is a great piece of technical engineering with a nice balance of power and economy, but I didn't like the x-drive; it had a floaty feeling. The car felt a little ubiquitous as well. I wonder if such an engine even get properly warmed up with your journey brief?

I actually really liked my Jaguar XF with the V6 diesel, I found the car had lots of character - although it also had a mind of its own sometimes. But it always annoyed me when sitting at lights with the window down and the diesel was chugging away. It didn't suit the car.

Shame the Lexus GS doesn't have an estate version (and a non CVT version! lol)

Probably wouldn't get warmed up on the day to day stuff, but the bulk of the mileage is that long motorway journey every few weeks. That's the slightly irritating thing really, the bulk of the miles suit diesel perfectly, I just have concerns about the relatively small amount of unavoidable use within what will be the extended ULEZ and whether in a few years it will be Euro7 diesels only.

That's why I was considering the C350e petrol hybrid, but that makes most sense for that relatively small day to day use and is only really a benefit on the long motorway runs in the sense that it can do a bit of regen, can go electric when the motorway comes to a stop, and has the performance of a larger petrol engine with the cruising economy of a smaller one. I doubt that I do enough local mileage that it's even worth paying for a charge point to be put in.

The Euro6 diesel XFs all appear to be four cylinders, which is even wronger than a diesel Jag!

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I think Euro6 petrol cars should be reasonably safe from an emissions point of view - they are currently only requiring them to be Euro4 (so post 2006) whereas diesels are Euro6 which is roughly post 2015. Even if they tighten the petrol limits up, they are starting from a lower base.

That hybrid Mercedes is pretty reasonable on fuel though obviously nowhere near the unrealistic plug in hybrid official figure based on doing most of the test on battery. Real world low 40's overall. 208bhp two litre turbo four and an 80bhp electric motor assisting with a maximum of about 275bhp available using them both, so not bad for the performance on offer.

Leasing - crikey, 500 notes a month gets a list of things I'd feel vaguely disappointed to choose between were I looking at a company car list! Slightly more would get me a Tesla Model 3 for 8000 miles a year on a five year lease, but I'm not sure I'd like to pay out over 30k to not own a car.

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Pistonheader101 said:

can you stretch a bit and get a 340i

No, they're mid twenties. I don't mind spending more money on fun cars, but this is already pushing what I'm willing to spend on something which is primarily a family bus.

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stevemcs said:

Only thing I can think of is one of these

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202204295...

Hmm, but it's dog slow, more than ten seconds to sixty, and thirsty at high twenties/low thirties to the gallon, and it has the same CVT transmission which has just failed and effectively written off my dad's XV - nobody can fix it, and Subaru wanted 8k to replace it on a 6k car. Think I'll swerve that one!

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ChocolateFrog said:

I've no idea what is and isn't ULEZ compliant but vaguely remember some older petrols are OK.

So on that assumption and without doing any research a Porsche Panamera?

That is actually a better shout than I assumed, it's more practical than I thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dvteqt2_5w

Would be an older petrol model, 2010 ish and 80k miles, but maybe special enough not to feel too short changed.

Bit brave pill, I suspect, I should think they have a capacity to throw up properly eye watering bills.

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ZX10R NIN said:

They can't make anymore restrictions on diesels as Euro6 is the highest you can get, the next restriction will be on Euro4 petrols.

Euro7 expected in 3 years, though. Would be harsh, I think, to start cutting off Euro6 diesels, but they do want them out of cities. I think on the whole probably safe for a while.

ZX10R NIN said:

Insignia VXR

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202202072...

Had discounted those, but that one is a lot of car (and performance) for the money. TCO could be not so good if it continues to depreciate heavily, I guess.

ZX10R NIN said:

2.5 Mazda GT Sport Nav

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202204204...

Bit slow, and front drive, and four cylinders. Just a bit ordinary, I think.

ZX10R NIN said:

3.0TDI A6 Black Edition:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205246...

Yes, those are a possibility. Looked at one last time, an older one, but it had issues. Borked electronics and a built-in waterfall feature integrated into the tailgate Smart, nice interior, bit forgettable to drive by all accounts? But then if I'm going Euro6 diesel, the 335d might be more interesting.

ZX10R NIN said:

Volvo V60 Diesel Hybrid:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202204285...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202206156...

Those are more interesting than I thought. I don't mind a five cylinder. Definitely an option.

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leef44 said:

Subaru Legacy 3.0R Save the pennies for fuel and maintenance. It won't depreciate.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111149...

Too much of a Subaru enthusiast's car, I think. I want something reasonably new, modern, reliable, not needing much TLC.

I have actually run a Subaru estate once before, a non-turbo Impreza. It had a catastrophic engine failure on the M6, oil everywhere.

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samoht said:

The current argument is whether Euro 7 will come in in 2025, 2026 or later https://www.fuelsandlubes.com/acea-says-2025-targe... .

It seems relatively unlikely that cars newer than three years old would be banned/surcharged from city centres for pollution reasons (?), so I'd imagine the earliest date for Euro 7 city centre requirements would be what, 2028-30 ?

The other thing we could see in this timeframe is all ICE cars being charged regardless of emissions status, but that wouldn't distinguish between petrol or diesel or old or new cars.

Fair points. Or just all diesels.

[otolith]

The cheapest 200bhp four cylinder Stinger on the market would be in budget, but not really practical enough or roomy enough in the back to replace an E class estate.

[otolith]

The Porsche is an interesting thought, but maybe strays too far from the brief of being sensible, reliable transport which doesn’t require too much time or money to run while not boring me rigid. It’s tempting but probably unwise.

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omniflow said:

If you can get over your objection to a 4 cylinder turbo, then a Mondeo 2.0 Ecoboost Estate will tick all of the remaining boxes.

Hmm. Front wheel drive. Two litre four cylinder turbo. 60 in 8 seconds.

It meets the "can get family and luggage from A-B" brief, but I think it falls down on the "not depressing" side. Suspect that the depreciation will be hefty too.

[otolith]

I can see that it works from a utilitarian point of view, and at a lower budget I would certainly consider one like this;

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202206076...

But for close to 20k I can't help feeling that I'd resent it. Same as the Passat or the Mazda6 really. Perfectly good cars, nothing objectively wrong with them, but front drive, uninteresting engines, bit slow.

[otolith]

Yes, S4 might be the thing. I guess the shortlist is now something along the lines of;

S4 - aim for 2014, 50,000 miles
335d - aim for 2015, 45,000 miles
C350e - aim for 2017, 45,000 miles
Volvo V60 D6 - aim for 2018, 60,000 miles

And the 5 GT is an intriguing call - they seem to be a bit unloved, and as a result don't look bad value. Six and eight cylinder petrol options (older, but low mileage) and 35d options too. Look to be often well equipped. Look like they are pretty practical with the seats folded down - does that still work with the individual rear seats? Essential I can get fishing gear into it. And does the parcel shelf come out, although my big dog is no more we have my OH's little shih tsu to accommodate in the boot.

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aussieal said:

Without wanting to breach PH rules, I will be putting my S4 Avant up for sale in the next week or so. Doesn't quite hit the above as it's a 2013 car with just shy of 64k miles. Great spec and condition though, so would be happy to share details direct if it was of interest.

Incidentally, you've just had me looking at 6 series GT's, which seem to be better spec'd and better value than equivalent aged 5 series tourings.

I've got two cars to offload and was planning to trade one of them in against whatever I buy, so buying privately leaves me with the problem of having to sell another one - but I was interested in your reasons for selling. You mention in your thread that it feels cramped inside and there's little space behind you (6'2) for a tall 5 year old in a booster seat. I do have a slight concern about rear legspace. My OH and I are both 5'6 ish, but we've got two teenagers and their father is quite tall. The boy is a couple of inches taller than us already at 14 and still growing rapidly, and is moaning about legroom in the back of her CLK. I did read that the sports seats in the S4 reduced legroom compared to boggo A4s, and that they weren't all that spacious to begin with, is this likely to be a problem?

[otolith]

There is not, estates start at 2020 for about 30k.

Never quite understood what the Arteon is about, though - is it a fancy Passat?