8c or Vanquish S?
Discussion
Suppose you had the money to drop on your dream car and after months of consideration it came down to these 2. Which would you go for and why?
Black would almost certainly be the colour in both cases (maybe a dark green or blue for the Vanq).
Mondeo & R500 & bank the rest isn't the way in this case.
Black would almost certainly be the colour in both cases (maybe a dark green or blue for the Vanq).
Mondeo & R500 & bank the rest isn't the way in this case.
Hmmm... split decisions on here too... Good work 
I have driven the Vanq S and it was utterly lovely - put a bid in on one that got away. The gearbox was not nearly as bad as people make out - wouldn't put me off at all. Initially, I was thinking I would have to go for the fully manual conversion, but having driven it I don't think it is necessary (for the time being).
I am having real trouble finding an 8c that anyone will let me drive (or even one to passenger in).
(Have done the Caterham thing and will prob get another one when I have the space for several cars.)
I have driven the Vanq S and it was utterly lovely - put a bid in on one that got away. The gearbox was not nearly as bad as people make out - wouldn't put me off at all. Initially, I was thinking I would have to go for the fully manual conversion, but having driven it I don't think it is necessary (for the time being).
I am having real trouble finding an 8c that anyone will let me drive (or even one to passenger in).
(Have done the Caterham thing and will prob get another one when I have the space for several cars.)
Edited by WTFWT on Tuesday 9th June 23:05
MonzaEvo said:
WTFWT said:
Suppose you had the money to drop on your dream car and after months of consideration it came down to these 2. Which would you go for and why?
Black would almost certainly be the colour in both cases (maybe a dark green or blue for the Vanq).
Mondeo & R500 & bank the rest isn't the way in this case.
Will you be keeping the Lancia?Black would almost certainly be the colour in both cases (maybe a dark green or blue for the Vanq).
Mondeo & R500 & bank the rest isn't the way in this case.
Rgds
Jonathan
As for the others... My business partner is getting a 599 and it really doesn't grab me - ditto the 612. Had a shot in a 550 and it was far too quiet (can be fixed I realise) and didn't feel nearly as quick as I had hoped. Vanq felt much stronger everywhere, which I was not expecting. Plus, Ferrari as a brand has no pull for me... I'd even go as far as to say I am slightly repelled by it.
I take on board the point about the Aston's styling, but IMO the sheer scale and exaggerated proportions of the Vanquish puts it in a different league to the V8V and DB9. The DBS leaves me stone cold - I have looked at a few in different colours and they do nothing for me at all. Less pretty than the DB9 and less aggressive than the Vanquish.
Having had a series of pretty intense cars, I quite fancy something a bit more laid back that I can do distances in. I have the integrale for blasting about early on a Sunday morning, but the thought of hammering it down to the South of France in the 'grale leaves me cold (also discounts machines like F40)...
...which leads me to the Vanquish. But, then I look at the 8c and melt. Plus I like having something really rare (hence the 'grale, mental Defender etc)...
Thanks for your input - keep it coming!
(P.S. I realise that I'm a jammy, jammy b
d and you'de all crawl over my dead body for either car!)DJC said:
The serious lack of luggage space rules the 8C out.
I needed the vehicle to be able to perform GT tasks...transport 2 people and their gear around the country and Europe and the 8C cant do it.
Simples.
Hmmmm... I needed the vehicle to be able to perform GT tasks...transport 2 people and their gear around the country and Europe and the 8C cant do it.
Simples.
I'm going to go and have a look at the Joe Macari car tomorrow. It specifies "fitted luggage" so I'll have to see what that entails...
)
RedLeicester said:
Lucie W said:
ETA - Has anyone driven a Vanq S with a manual upgrade? Is it really worth £15k?
Yes. Everything the car should have been and more. For my money I wouldn't touch that hideous abomination of cheap italian steel, Vanquish every time.Ye Gods that Koenig is hideous - they should be shot for doing that to an 8C - they're too rare to deface!
Quick update as I was going through some old emails and found an old PM between myself and a fellow PHer.
Thought I would share it to give an update on what this car is like... There seems to be a huge amount of interest in it everywhere I go.
Me, bored at work:
Don't know where to start with the car really, so I'll just ramble on. I bought the Joe Macari car and have found their pre and post sales service to be excellent - they have been absolutely faultlessly attentive and responsive and Joe himself is a real character. I bought the car with 400 miles on the clock. I've had the car for about 3 months now and have done 3,500 miles in it, all over the UK and Europe. It is a truly wonderful car in many ways and a slight let down in a few others. Obviously styling is a subjective issue, but my heart genuinely beats faster as I walk up to it in the garage and peel the cover off it (beautiful tailored Alfa cover that came with the car). Peeling back the cover makes you realise the car is wide and quite large – larger than you would think from photos. I had the valves in the exhaust wired open full time as the noise is just unreal. The engine turns very quickly on the starter, but takes a while to catch light. When it does, it just explodes into life and the sound... Oh my god, the sound...
When you pull away from rest when the car hasn't been used it is almost as if the clutch needs to relearn its biting point. The car lunges a bit and then nearly stalls before dipping the clutch, catching itself and then retrying. This happens for about the first 2 or 3 times when moving away when the car is cold (always let it warm through for about 2-3 mins before moving off). The auto mode is pretty poor as it tries to hold onto the gears for too long when you are pootling resulting in un-necessarily jerky changes. Much better to use the manual mode and leave it in standard for slightly slurry normal shifts and then into sport for faster shifts when you are pushing on. There is a noticeable difference between shift speeds in the two modes.
You sit low in the car and the carbon backed seats are very hard and supportive. On my first 2 hour journey I felt sore all over but bizarrely have done several 8 hour trips in the car since and got out feeling fine. The wipers, sat nav and radio all work well. The stereo is very good without being excellent – loud and clear, but lacking real definition. The steering is direct, quite quick and feels very linear on the turn in – the car turns in very well initially, feeling pretty much mid-engined (due to the 50/50 weight I suppose.). Looking under the bonnet confirms that the engine is set well back, almost under the dash coaming and low down. It has beautiful red cam covers with a crackled finish, with all the breathing on display – a great looking engine. The brakes look huge behind the 20” wheel and are excellent providing immense, fade-free stopping power with a good deal of feel.
The engine is the real centrepiece of the whole thing. It has such a wide range of vocal sounds and really sings its head off all the time. It completely dominates the driving experience. There is really useful torque from idle and then it picks up markedly again at 4,500rpm and howls all the way to 7750, perhaps tailing off in delivery over the last 250rpm. That might improve as the engine loosens up, which it is doing noticeably. It is definitely getting louder too. One enthusiast upon hearing it roll by said it made his de-catted Cerbera sound like a Prius. The best bit is the over-run... When the manifolds are hot, the engine pops and bangs on the overrun, sometimes with the loud crack of a rifle upon lift off or on blipping the downshift. It is the most extravagant, pugnacious sound and then as the note dies away, it drops the last 500rpm to idle with a rumbling woofle that almost seems to signify disquiet, as if it is saying “come on, let’s get going again”.
When cornering hard at low speed, the car turns in well and will then settle into a neutral stance, verging towards understeer if you really start to lean on it. There is quite a bit of roll – the car feels slightly undersprung and overdamped. The ride being firm, but the car rolling under load. It’s the kind of thing Lotus have got licked and Alfa haven’t. The tyres are very sticky D8 compound and generate prodigious grip. I would go for something less intense next time. With enough lock and room, you can unsettle the rear with a big throttle commitment. However, it moves sideways quickly and continues to do so on opposite lock, pushing the car sideways rather than driving it forward, despite the LSD. It is hard to ‘4 wheel drift’ per se. You need to stay committed to get it to come back smoothly, but it will snap back into line very controllably if you just come off the throttle abruptly. On faster corners, the car works better, hooking up and then taking attitude the minute you get back on the throttle. Sitting so far back, you can really feel it move and it feels terrific – really alive and involving.
In the wet it is a quite different story – the car takes a very oversteery stance on any application of the throttle. It moves sideways happily in 2nd 3rd and 4th gear, again moving sideways, rather than forward. This can be great fun coming out of slow corners you know, but it happened to me once in 4th gear when I was not expecting it and the car gobbled up all the tarmac before I could get on top of it. I could see the coast was clear before I committed, but it was still an unwelcome shock. I have never driven a production car (and I’ve tried a few) which has such an oversteery stance. Not even my Caterham. It makes wet weather driving a sweaty palmed experience, for better or worse and at one moment, wrestling it through damp Highland roads I was suddenly aware of how much faster the integrale was over the same ground. It would absolutely devastate the 8C point to point.
It has suited the long distance role well – the fitted luggage is beautiful, but to be honest I haven’t used them. You can fit two large soft bags on the parcel shelf and that has been plenty for a week’s touring. I loaded my bag in, went to my girlfriend and she loaded her bag in. I just laid my suits and her dresses over the gearbox cover under the glass panel. There is a huge amount of headroom and the car feels much airier and lighter than the Vanquish. The cabin is beautifully put together and everything is a tactile and visual delight.
The venturi must work really well as the car feels incredibly planted at speed, loping along at 120mph and feeling super glued down, almost compressed, at 175mph which is the fastest I have had it up to. The paintwork has picked up a huge number of stone chips, but then I have been driving it hard all over Europe. I am resigned to letting it wear the battle scars and probably have it resprayed every 18 months or so, or when my conscience can’t take it any more!
Overall, I am very happy with it. I think I’ll hang on to it for a good while yet. It is the only car, other than the Vanquish, that I have really lusted after and I haven’t seen anything yet that would tempt me to replace it. The Vanqs were all lovely, especially the S, but the 8C was in a different league for how it made me feel, which is what it is all about I suppose (just like the integrale).
Thought I would share it to give an update on what this car is like... There seems to be a huge amount of interest in it everywhere I go.
Me, bored at work:
Don't know where to start with the car really, so I'll just ramble on. I bought the Joe Macari car and have found their pre and post sales service to be excellent - they have been absolutely faultlessly attentive and responsive and Joe himself is a real character. I bought the car with 400 miles on the clock. I've had the car for about 3 months now and have done 3,500 miles in it, all over the UK and Europe. It is a truly wonderful car in many ways and a slight let down in a few others. Obviously styling is a subjective issue, but my heart genuinely beats faster as I walk up to it in the garage and peel the cover off it (beautiful tailored Alfa cover that came with the car). Peeling back the cover makes you realise the car is wide and quite large – larger than you would think from photos. I had the valves in the exhaust wired open full time as the noise is just unreal. The engine turns very quickly on the starter, but takes a while to catch light. When it does, it just explodes into life and the sound... Oh my god, the sound...
When you pull away from rest when the car hasn't been used it is almost as if the clutch needs to relearn its biting point. The car lunges a bit and then nearly stalls before dipping the clutch, catching itself and then retrying. This happens for about the first 2 or 3 times when moving away when the car is cold (always let it warm through for about 2-3 mins before moving off). The auto mode is pretty poor as it tries to hold onto the gears for too long when you are pootling resulting in un-necessarily jerky changes. Much better to use the manual mode and leave it in standard for slightly slurry normal shifts and then into sport for faster shifts when you are pushing on. There is a noticeable difference between shift speeds in the two modes.
You sit low in the car and the carbon backed seats are very hard and supportive. On my first 2 hour journey I felt sore all over but bizarrely have done several 8 hour trips in the car since and got out feeling fine. The wipers, sat nav and radio all work well. The stereo is very good without being excellent – loud and clear, but lacking real definition. The steering is direct, quite quick and feels very linear on the turn in – the car turns in very well initially, feeling pretty much mid-engined (due to the 50/50 weight I suppose.). Looking under the bonnet confirms that the engine is set well back, almost under the dash coaming and low down. It has beautiful red cam covers with a crackled finish, with all the breathing on display – a great looking engine. The brakes look huge behind the 20” wheel and are excellent providing immense, fade-free stopping power with a good deal of feel.
The engine is the real centrepiece of the whole thing. It has such a wide range of vocal sounds and really sings its head off all the time. It completely dominates the driving experience. There is really useful torque from idle and then it picks up markedly again at 4,500rpm and howls all the way to 7750, perhaps tailing off in delivery over the last 250rpm. That might improve as the engine loosens up, which it is doing noticeably. It is definitely getting louder too. One enthusiast upon hearing it roll by said it made his de-catted Cerbera sound like a Prius. The best bit is the over-run... When the manifolds are hot, the engine pops and bangs on the overrun, sometimes with the loud crack of a rifle upon lift off or on blipping the downshift. It is the most extravagant, pugnacious sound and then as the note dies away, it drops the last 500rpm to idle with a rumbling woofle that almost seems to signify disquiet, as if it is saying “come on, let’s get going again”.
When cornering hard at low speed, the car turns in well and will then settle into a neutral stance, verging towards understeer if you really start to lean on it. There is quite a bit of roll – the car feels slightly undersprung and overdamped. The ride being firm, but the car rolling under load. It’s the kind of thing Lotus have got licked and Alfa haven’t. The tyres are very sticky D8 compound and generate prodigious grip. I would go for something less intense next time. With enough lock and room, you can unsettle the rear with a big throttle commitment. However, it moves sideways quickly and continues to do so on opposite lock, pushing the car sideways rather than driving it forward, despite the LSD. It is hard to ‘4 wheel drift’ per se. You need to stay committed to get it to come back smoothly, but it will snap back into line very controllably if you just come off the throttle abruptly. On faster corners, the car works better, hooking up and then taking attitude the minute you get back on the throttle. Sitting so far back, you can really feel it move and it feels terrific – really alive and involving.
In the wet it is a quite different story – the car takes a very oversteery stance on any application of the throttle. It moves sideways happily in 2nd 3rd and 4th gear, again moving sideways, rather than forward. This can be great fun coming out of slow corners you know, but it happened to me once in 4th gear when I was not expecting it and the car gobbled up all the tarmac before I could get on top of it. I could see the coast was clear before I committed, but it was still an unwelcome shock. I have never driven a production car (and I’ve tried a few) which has such an oversteery stance. Not even my Caterham. It makes wet weather driving a sweaty palmed experience, for better or worse and at one moment, wrestling it through damp Highland roads I was suddenly aware of how much faster the integrale was over the same ground. It would absolutely devastate the 8C point to point.
It has suited the long distance role well – the fitted luggage is beautiful, but to be honest I haven’t used them. You can fit two large soft bags on the parcel shelf and that has been plenty for a week’s touring. I loaded my bag in, went to my girlfriend and she loaded her bag in. I just laid my suits and her dresses over the gearbox cover under the glass panel. There is a huge amount of headroom and the car feels much airier and lighter than the Vanquish. The cabin is beautifully put together and everything is a tactile and visual delight.
The venturi must work really well as the car feels incredibly planted at speed, loping along at 120mph and feeling super glued down, almost compressed, at 175mph which is the fastest I have had it up to. The paintwork has picked up a huge number of stone chips, but then I have been driving it hard all over Europe. I am resigned to letting it wear the battle scars and probably have it resprayed every 18 months or so, or when my conscience can’t take it any more!
Overall, I am very happy with it. I think I’ll hang on to it for a good while yet. It is the only car, other than the Vanquish, that I have really lusted after and I haven’t seen anything yet that would tempt me to replace it. The Vanqs were all lovely, especially the S, but the 8C was in a different league for how it made me feel, which is what it is all about I suppose (just like the integrale).
Edited by WTFWT on Thursday 15th April 21:26
polar8 said:
WTFWT said:
Update:
I bought the 8c!!
Drove both cars back to back today and in the end it wasn't too hard a decision. A stunning, stunning bit of kit in nearly every way.
I'm thrilled to bits
so.... after three months of ownership, what's it like? I saw a black one drive through Notting HIll today (quite possibly you!) and was stunned by the sound and look.... amazing! Desperate to hear how it is to own -- I've found two black cars for sale in Germany and am having bad bad thoughts...I bought the 8c!!
Drove both cars back to back today and in the end it wasn't too hard a decision. A stunning, stunning bit of kit in nearly every way.
I'm thrilled to bits
will_ said:
Does your car have black and silver plates (for show purposes only, obviously)?
Yep, they're Guernsey plates... Although I only have one on the rear. The front one "fell off". I really couldn't bear to deface that beautiful nose...Got some plans for the car - will keep you all updated.
Ok, 2 years in and I am struggling to live with the ride / handling compromise. And, honestly, both are compromised.
The car has been driven by a number of qualified persons (including Rob Wilson, Kimi Raikkonen's driving trainer) and suggestions have been made. Going for a set of custom springs and dampers.
I agreed best with Joe Macari when he said, "It's wonderful up to about 80% and then when you go beyond that and into warp drive, the nose starts to nod, the steering goes quiet and just when you are committimg yourself utterly and need a bit more feedback, it instead reverts to a position of no feedback at all and takes on a demeanour of being about 1 second behind you at all times. Unsettling." Couldn't have put it better myself. That said, he rated it highly (he would, he sold it to me) and said he far preferred it to either of the Spider's he had driven, despite what the press might say.
In summary the car is fabulous 98% of the time I drive it in real conditions, but there is about 2% of the time when I remove my brain and go for it and it doesn't quite add up.
Honestly, I am apprehensive that I may end up chasing my tail (which happened with the integrale), but is soooo nearly a "great", but it's not quite there.
Still the most fabulosuly attractive thing on 2 wheels (when clean), but when you screw a supermodel, you want her to push back, don't you?
Should get her dialled i and have some results within a couple of months...
The car has been driven by a number of qualified persons (including Rob Wilson, Kimi Raikkonen's driving trainer) and suggestions have been made. Going for a set of custom springs and dampers.
I agreed best with Joe Macari when he said, "It's wonderful up to about 80% and then when you go beyond that and into warp drive, the nose starts to nod, the steering goes quiet and just when you are committimg yourself utterly and need a bit more feedback, it instead reverts to a position of no feedback at all and takes on a demeanour of being about 1 second behind you at all times. Unsettling." Couldn't have put it better myself. That said, he rated it highly (he would, he sold it to me) and said he far preferred it to either of the Spider's he had driven, despite what the press might say.
In summary the car is fabulous 98% of the time I drive it in real conditions, but there is about 2% of the time when I remove my brain and go for it and it doesn't quite add up.
Honestly, I am apprehensive that I may end up chasing my tail (which happened with the integrale), but is soooo nearly a "great", but it's not quite there.
Still the most fabulosuly attractive thing on 2 wheels (when clean), but when you screw a supermodel, you want her to push back, don't you?
Should get her dialled i and have some results within a couple of months...
90k views!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnNhn-6_jKE
Slide past Mandarin Oriental
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJxFWuQmu_w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnNhn-6_jKE
Slide past Mandarin Oriental
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJxFWuQmu_w
Edited by WTFWT on Saturday 10th February 15:58
ZOLLAR said:
How long did you own it for?
I remember watching the video of you inviting the camera guy over to show the interior, time flies!
Stunning cars, love them.
I had it 4 years all told and did 15,000 miles in it. During the last year, I only really used it once when I drove down to a wedding in Cornwall in driving rain. It deafened me and aquaplaned for the whole 6 hours down there and then the same coming back. A Golf TDI would have been a better companion. Next time out a 50p thermostat failed and it blew its coolant out (an AA man stopped at the side of the road within 3 minutes, before I had called anyone, told me all 8Cs have free AA cover, insisted he take me to a hire car place and then dropped the car back to London. It was very surreal). After that, I didn’t use it again for 6 months and put it up for sale. I remember watching the video of you inviting the camera guy over to show the interior, time flies!
Stunning cars, love them.
There are moments when I miss it, but honestly, I had my fun with it. And, perhaps because of the faults, it was a lot of fun. Extremely easy to provoke and slide at low speed and I never tired of the noise and just the sensation of being in it. Sad as it may sound, it was just cool and it made me feel cool.
I’ve tried a bunch of super cars since and they have all left me cold (except the Noble M600 which I can’t quite get out of my head for some reason). I don’t think I would have another supercar. Ticked the box. And I’m bloody glad that was the car I chose to do it in.
thegreenhell said:
Can you tell us more about this, or have you written about it elsewhere?
The new springs and dampers were made by Quantum with fully adjustable dampers. They supplied loads of springs and I fully tried 4 sets of springs I think.When researching before starting the project, I found out that Dallara had been commissioned by Alfa to do all the set up work (and other cool stuff like the seats were from the Enzo). However, when Alfa sold all 500 in the time it takes to sneeze, Dallara were told not to bother. Dallara were hugely helpful in handing over a bunch of data, but confessed they hadn't got sufficiently far down the line to offer finalised solutions.
Rob Wilson did the set-up work at Bruntingthorpe for me on 3 separate occasions. The first time I tried it out on the road, it was alarmingly bad - the front and rear moving at totally different speeds and setting up an unpleasant oscillation. By the end of development, it was good. Not the difference I had hoped if I am honest in that it was still very stiff at low speed and jiggled mercilessly, although it settled in above 30mph. The big change was how flat it cornered and the balance became totally neutral so you really could just choose your angle of attack. With your bum right next to the rear axle, you really felt every degree of movement.
When the rear parcel shelf and interior was removed at the circuit, the car became almost unbearably loud and you also got to see into the innards of the fuel tank and axle etc. It really made you realise what a low volume special it was as everything looked handmade. The fuel tank looked like an endurance race tank.
It was a cool project. It did make the car better, but was it £10k well spent? Not really.
P.S. M5MarkM I was considering the Mk1 Vanquish
Funny how time moves on. I have since bought an Aston Martin V12 Vantage S. When they were new, I couldn’t get past the bonnet vents, but time moves on and my car is black with crimson bonnet carbon vents and strakes and I guess time softens perspective.
In many ways it reminds me of the 8C. It’s gorgeous, though not as rare, gearbox is a little truculent when cold, but what has surprised me is how much faster the Aston is. It doesn’t rip at the top end like the 8C did but, dear me, it has so much more power elsewhere. I bought it decatted with the Bluetooth valve button. The whole slip road thing… when you feed it the fat through 3rd and 4th… it feels violently quick. Like a solid 30% more than the 8C could manage.
I loved my time with the 8C. Did 15k miles with it. It became a YouTube star and I see it has since appeared on Harry’s garage (he slightly missed the point of the set up change - it was about making it more predictable to slide rather than more comfy). But I wouldn’t have it back. The Aston feels a step on (although the full on 900w stereo is dreadful after a few years in a top spec Jaguar). It feels a bit more Jekyl and Hyde. Can play both. The 8C was glorious, but sometimes a companion is what you need.
In many ways it reminds me of the 8C. It’s gorgeous, though not as rare, gearbox is a little truculent when cold, but what has surprised me is how much faster the Aston is. It doesn’t rip at the top end like the 8C did but, dear me, it has so much more power elsewhere. I bought it decatted with the Bluetooth valve button. The whole slip road thing… when you feed it the fat through 3rd and 4th… it feels violently quick. Like a solid 30% more than the 8C could manage.
I loved my time with the 8C. Did 15k miles with it. It became a YouTube star and I see it has since appeared on Harry’s garage (he slightly missed the point of the set up change - it was about making it more predictable to slide rather than more comfy). But I wouldn’t have it back. The Aston feels a step on (although the full on 900w stereo is dreadful after a few years in a top spec Jaguar). It feels a bit more Jekyl and Hyde. Can play both. The 8C was glorious, but sometimes a companion is what you need.
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