Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
Discussion
What does the kit car industry need to do to revive interest and sale?
First why is it losing sale?
Why is it not selling to younger buyer? Or is it?
Are there too many similar car? (Track day/ race/ performance)
What way should the industry go, more full body kits or Classic kits?
Does Electric power offer anything for the kit car industry?
How will the industry change in the next 5..10..20 years? What will drive that change?
First why is it losing sale?
Why is it not selling to younger buyer? Or is it?
Are there too many similar car? (Track day/ race/ performance)
What way should the industry go, more full body kits or Classic kits?
Does Electric power offer anything for the kit car industry?
How will the industry change in the next 5..10..20 years? What will drive that change?
fuoriserie said:
Personally If I'd ever consider manufacturing a new kitcar design today, it would have to be a panel kit or something that would use a single donor, just like an Mx5 or a fwd car..
The only option is to look into rebodying exhisting platform cars and free yoursel from IVA, like Mx5's, Z3, MR2, Boxter, MGF and other, but as someone posted earlier they would need to be styled and look appealing as original and bespoke designs on their own but maybe inspired by some of the past designs. I would love to see new NOVA Kitcar design using and exhisitng platform...
Smaller niches, like 3wheelers, Microcars and a few others will continue in the future as they will become the more inexpensive niche market.
Reading this, I see where the industry could be in 5-10 years. Where I disagree is on the list of car to re-body. Why not a Golf, Astra or any mid size family car (2 door only), you could add a lot to cars like these. After seeing Gadget geeks F1 special, where they ripped a Hyundai down to just its engine and wheels, I see there is a lot that could be done with a re body kit. The only option is to look into rebodying exhisting platform cars and free yoursel from IVA, like Mx5's, Z3, MR2, Boxter, MGF and other, but as someone posted earlier they would need to be styled and look appealing as original and bespoke designs on their own but maybe inspired by some of the past designs. I would love to see new NOVA Kitcar design using and exhisitng platform...
Smaller niches, like 3wheelers, Microcars and a few others will continue in the future as they will become the more inexpensive niche market.
I see 3 wheelers becoming more important and mainstream for kit cars. Microcars could also be area of growth for kits, more as commuter cars than any thing else. A micro sports car could be fun but harder to get right. I also hope we will see people a lot more open to new ideas.
fuoriserie said:
Russ Bost said:
I feel the way forward is vehicles that can be MSVA'd, panel conversions that don't need IVA, very high performance/relatively low cost cars largely aimed at the trackday market, vehicles that can be built on one floorplan/chassis, but carry different bodies depending on intended use - takes much of the cost out of having several models whilst keeping versatility & diversity. Simple single donor conversions that sort of thing. All IMHO of course
I agree with you...It is interesting to note that the Morgan's were cheap cars. Some of the 1930's cheapest cars, yet they had performance to better most. The first car to lap Brooklands at an adverage speed was a Morgan, the second a Bently! Cheap/low cost cars can offer a lot. Those 30's cars are still quick by modern standars.
qdos said:
KDIcarmad said:
I remember a Midas Gold convertable on the front cover of Car. Is this the last time a kit car had that honour?
Well how about with the likes of Gumpert, Aerial Konigsegg http://www.theestd.com/automotive/and yes the front cover of TopGear magazine though yes it was in India but a cracking write up all the same....
Oh and on National Television over there too.
I meant a photo on the cover as lead story. Still could india become a big market for Kit Car?
fuoriserie said:
Images of the Hiroshi Mazda Mx5:
http://www.2000gt.net/Replicas/Hiroshi/Hiroshi.php
I believe there were 2 or 3 open Toyota 2000 roadster build(converted, possible in the UK?). As Sean Connery would not fit inside the coupe, when making "You Only Live Twice". He never drives the car in the film as he was still to tall, it appears he still almost looking over the windscreen anyway. Please correct me if wrong on any of this. Still looks great, as would a coupe. I also believe the GT was build or designed by Yamaha and marketed by Toyota. The 2000GT is said to have inspired the Datsun 240, is there a Yamaha connection here as well? A MX5 240 any one?http://www.2000gt.net/Replicas/Hiroshi/Hiroshi.php
Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 23 April 08:22
Are the MX5 and MR2's real the only car that are suitable for re-body?
What about a 3 or 1 series BMW, or a hot hatch GTI?
I know the reason, put simple no one want to be the first to do something different. Why take a risk, when you know MR2 MX based ones are selling? Simple to be different and find new buyer.
What about a 3 or 1 series BMW, or a hot hatch GTI?
I know the reason, put simple no one want to be the first to do something different. Why take a risk, when you know MR2 MX based ones are selling? Simple to be different and find new buyer.
Pat H said:
Yep.
There are a couple of 4x4 kits that recycle rotten Discoverys on a modified original chassis.
Beetles and Triumphs are now emerging classics and are getting too valuable to chop up, but I suppose that old kits like the GP Spyder, the beach buggies and the Triumph based stuff like Spartans are more viable than they have been for decades.
Beetles and Triumphs emerging classics! Both the VW 1303 (never called a Beetle by VW) and Triumph Herald and its relate car are classic and have been so for many years. There are a couple of 4x4 kits that recycle rotten Discoverys on a modified original chassis.
Beetles and Triumphs are now emerging classics and are getting too valuable to chop up, but I suppose that old kits like the GP Spyder, the beach buggies and the Triumph based stuff like Spartans are more viable than they have been for decades.
I was amazed when just a year or so ago a new Herald based kit was offered. Any modern hatch will out handle them and has the power to leave them at lights. I see only one reason for using them as a donor, to get round IVA. I feel this is moving away from how to revive interest.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Tuesday 24th April 11:41
Dreamspeed said:
I have always wanted to build my own car, but it needed to be “weather” proof and secure, look exotic, and be relatively affordable and easy to build, but the kitcar world seems to have lost its way. There’s too many companies doing the same thing, there’s nothing fresh.
Changing the body panels on an old MR2 or other, for fiberglass Lamborghini or Ferrari ones has never appealed to me. It may look like a Lamborghini, but it’s still an old Toyota underneath, and in some case’s you have to stretch the chassis to match the wheel base, which will require professional inspection at considerable cost. To me, if feels too much like a “cut ‘n’ shut” and I really wouldn’t feel safe driving it at high speeds. Also, in the true spirit of truly building your own car, this approach is closer to modifying an existing car. I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone one who has completed such a car, in fact I have the upmost respect for you, it’s requires a lot of skill and effort, and the end results can be very convincing.
I think the IVA is something that can’t truly be avoided, and at around £1000 is quite a lot of money and takes a lot from an already tight budget, but having a bespoke chassis is really the only way forward. Don’t forget, if you modify an existing chassis, you still have to have the test done anyway, so you might as well go new, rather than chop up something old.
The Ultima’s and Gardner Douglass are great, but due to the components are very expensive to make and are closer to race cars than exotic supercars. If money were no object and I had a 10 car garage then I would have them, without question, but like many of us, I only have the budget for one car and at half their cost.
The track day/bike engine cars are great fun, but really only good for one thing, the track. I wanted something more.
I wanted something that I could pull up outside a fancy restaurant or formal dinner, not worry too much about rain or cold. Know it’s secure enough to prove theft difficult. Have climate control, power steering, electric windows with real curved glass, something that didn’t look too “Hand built”, something that would turn heads, something mid-engined, with an in-line V6 or V8. Something that had great mechanical parts, but which didn’t cost the earth to buy or replace. Something that didn’t have flat MDF covered in sticky back plastic for a dash board. Something where time had been spent avoiding any bad engineering where mechanical parts would wear too quickly or outriggers would rot. It needed to be easy to build, easy to work on and service, have more use than just the odd summer day, not be a copy or replica, but be a unique design and cost around £20,000 to build and have on the road.
I realised that there was nothing like this on the market, so I decided to build my own.
This is what the industry needs more off. Easy to build, easy to work on and service, have more use than just the odd summer day, not a copy or replica. I liked the line on the dash board, to many kit car seem to forget about the dash. When driving where do you look? At the dash! If its not special It brings the whole car down. GTM use to do this, but currently no one is.Changing the body panels on an old MR2 or other, for fiberglass Lamborghini or Ferrari ones has never appealed to me. It may look like a Lamborghini, but it’s still an old Toyota underneath, and in some case’s you have to stretch the chassis to match the wheel base, which will require professional inspection at considerable cost. To me, if feels too much like a “cut ‘n’ shut” and I really wouldn’t feel safe driving it at high speeds. Also, in the true spirit of truly building your own car, this approach is closer to modifying an existing car. I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone one who has completed such a car, in fact I have the upmost respect for you, it’s requires a lot of skill and effort, and the end results can be very convincing.
I think the IVA is something that can’t truly be avoided, and at around £1000 is quite a lot of money and takes a lot from an already tight budget, but having a bespoke chassis is really the only way forward. Don’t forget, if you modify an existing chassis, you still have to have the test done anyway, so you might as well go new, rather than chop up something old.
The Ultima’s and Gardner Douglass are great, but due to the components are very expensive to make and are closer to race cars than exotic supercars. If money were no object and I had a 10 car garage then I would have them, without question, but like many of us, I only have the budget for one car and at half their cost.
The track day/bike engine cars are great fun, but really only good for one thing, the track. I wanted something more.
I wanted something that I could pull up outside a fancy restaurant or formal dinner, not worry too much about rain or cold. Know it’s secure enough to prove theft difficult. Have climate control, power steering, electric windows with real curved glass, something that didn’t look too “Hand built”, something that would turn heads, something mid-engined, with an in-line V6 or V8. Something that had great mechanical parts, but which didn’t cost the earth to buy or replace. Something that didn’t have flat MDF covered in sticky back plastic for a dash board. Something where time had been spent avoiding any bad engineering where mechanical parts would wear too quickly or outriggers would rot. It needed to be easy to build, easy to work on and service, have more use than just the odd summer day, not be a copy or replica, but be a unique design and cost around £20,000 to build and have on the road.
I realised that there was nothing like this on the market, so I decided to build my own.
The track day/bike engine cars must have limited appeal, so why are so many kit car aimed at this market. Is it an easy market to find and sell to, or just one that KC manufactures know.
Kentmagpie said:
Dreamspeed said:
I have a fully running proto-type. I’m in the process of having some Computer imagery done of a “finished” version, as many people find it difficult to look past the roughness of a prototype and don’t look close enough at the engineering. Stay tuned, I may have something I’m willing to show the public in a month or so!
Good effort, keep us posted. It's good to see people like yourself pushing the boundaries and filling in the gaps of the kit car market. Unfortunately I'm one of the boring types whose happy to blast a 7 style BEC down the lanes or round a track on a nice sunny day. Your project sounds interesting :-) be good to see some pics if you'd let us Dreamspeed said:
rhinochopig said:
Sounds like a winner, BUT, I struggle to see how you can possibly offer a kit with those spec's for ~ £15k max (as most donor cars with either a V6 or a V8 in good enough nick are going to be roughly £4-5k at the cheapest). Looking at the kits at the cheaper end of the market, even the 7 style kits are £10-15k.
I wish you luck, I really do, but I reckon your OTR price is about £10k out for what you describe. I do hope you prove me wrong though.
You are right, this specification of kit car cannot be built for £10K, and you are also right the even “7” style kits cost £10-15K, in their basic form; factory cars even cost twice as much. But a TOTAL budget of say £20,000 is achievable if you follow a few basic rules.I wish you luck, I really do, but I reckon your OTR price is about £10k out for what you describe. I do hope you prove me wrong though.
Firstly there are “big” power cars up for sale, such as eBay, going for around £1000. Try it, do a search and see what you can get. Like I’ve mentioned elsewhere on this thread, most of the donor parts for my kit are free, if you sell on the parts you don’t need.
Secondly the body panels will be supplied in a gel-coat colour of your own choice (Basic colours) so there’s no need for a £3000 paint job.
All the glass/door locks/ electric windows/ door rubbers/ roof lining come from one donor car which can be bought for as little as £200; again selling on the parts you don’t want to get your money back, or make a profit (as I did)
Wheels can come from a BMW 3-series, like 18” MV1’s or MV2’s or M3 wheels, for as little as £300 with used tires. But big rubber can be fitted if you have the funds.
95% of the wiring comes from the original Audi donor car, heaters, clocks, dash, stalks, steering, air-con, climate control, stereo, speakers etc. which is all free, IVA compliant and gives the car a factory finished feel.
The lights (Pagani Zonda front/ Saleen S7 bi-turbo rear) can be sourced for a little over £250 and are IVA compliant.
Budget racing seats can be bought for as little as £100 on eBay, other items needed such as rivets, glues, tie-wraps, heat-shrink etc. sourced on the net for a few pounds.
I’m working on a “budget” 2.8 V6 kit, which should supply you with everything else you need, for about £17000, which includes fuel tanks, chassis, fiberglass body panels, adjustable coil over suspension, some coolant and other pipes, extended throttle cable, adjustable pedal set, suspension wishbones and some bracket’s etc.
I made over £1000 profit on my chosen donor cars, which covers the IVA test. So the Kit £17000, donor parts free, IVA covered, £3000 for miscellaneous parts and anything else I haven’t mentioned. Ok, I simplified it a little, but you get the idea.
I’m 5 years into this project, and most of this has been sorted. I’ll keep everyone posted!
dom9 said:
Dreamspeed
What's my point? Surely all this comes down to is the fact that the Noble had some serious press coverage and spent weeks/ months in literally every car magazine being sold. The good kits need more publicity and exposure. The Noble is a nice looking thing but it really, really does feel like a home builder of something that looks just as good could actually make a better job of it!
I agree with you on the point that more press coverage in needed. A quick point spot the odd one out, MG Midget,MGB, Lotus Elan, Triumph Spitfire and Sunbeam. All classic British sports cars, all fun cars. Any collector of British sports cars would like all of these. Yet the Lotus Elan is a kit. The press in the 1960's did not look down on the Elan, instead treated as car. A car with great handling and good looks (so good Mazda used them for the MX5). What's my point? Surely all this comes down to is the fact that the Noble had some serious press coverage and spent weeks/ months in literally every car magazine being sold. The good kits need more publicity and exposure. The Noble is a nice looking thing but it really, really does feel like a home builder of something that looks just as good could actually make a better job of it!
Take GTM Libra and the MG TF, which is the better design? Both used Metro parts in a mid-engined design. If the Libra had an MG badge and sold from dealers would it have sold better than the TF? Personal I think it would have. Did the mainstream press treat the cars the same no, the Libra was just a kit. You could compare the Libra to the Lotus Elise (same engine), here the Lotus has it, but only just. The Libra falls between these two very nicely, if it had been a production car would we be calling it a classic now?
What has changed since the 1960's that stopped the mainstream press seeing the GTM Libra as a great handling car with good looks? Answer this and you will know how to revive the industry.
dom9 said:
As for how we gain more Kit exposure, has anyone approached a magazine like Evo and offered a car for a group test? Ultima Vs GBP60k competition or something... Even someone running an advert would likely raise some interest but I suspect that is expensive and out of the budget for most kit manufacturers.
I think this sounds a good idea! A GTM Libra against a MG F/TF and a Lotus Elise MK1 would be fun in a retro way. An Ultima Vs any Ferrari or Lambo, would be a lot of fun. The Ultima if factory build would be faster point to point too. The problem I see is magazines like Evo are offered a lot of car by manufacture of all sizes, getting Evo to pick your car, which most likey is your demo car, could take up a lot of time. Still a good idea. Top Gear has know since 2007 that the Ultima is the fastest Britsh car on it track. A GTR720 on road (e-marked) tyre set a lap time on the there track of 1min12.8 secs. The record on the show was held by the Koenigsegg CXX at 1min17.6secs. The Ariel Atom V8 500 currently hold the record at 1min15.1. Wow the Ultima is quicker!!
If I had the money I would park an Ulimta outside the track when the show is being record, handing out T-shirt with a picture of the an Ultima on them and the line "To fast for Top Gear, to fast for the Stig!" To the people going. Do this for a few weeks and Top Gear would have to let one round the track or explain why they will not. I mean we all know it no race car and is fully road legal.
WE COULD ALL SEND E-MAIL ASKING WHY THEY HAVE NOT HAD AN ULTIMA ON THE SHOW!!
OR WHEN THEY AT A SHOW ASK THEM!!!
If I had the money I would park an Ulimta outside the track when the show is being record, handing out T-shirt with a picture of the an Ultima on them and the line "To fast for Top Gear, to fast for the Stig!" To the people going. Do this for a few weeks and Top Gear would have to let one round the track or explain why they will not. I mean we all know it no race car and is fully road legal.
WE COULD ALL SEND E-MAIL ASKING WHY THEY HAVE NOT HAD AN ULTIMA ON THE SHOW!!
OR WHEN THEY AT A SHOW ASK THEM!!!
qdos said:
Sadly pretty much true though I'm not too sure about the computers bit. More like play the X-box or if multi tasking the Nintendo DS
When I was at school it was very much looked down upon to want to get your hands dirty. There was a big move to point kids to being bankers lawyers and basically paper shufflers. Surprise surprise now the UK makes naff all and we've got nothing to get us out of a recession that was so obviously coming. Kit cars are an ideal way to inspire kids to get back to making things. We just need to get Blue Peter and Tomorrow's World back on prime TV instead of X Factor.
I don't remember Blue Peter or Tomorrow's World being on a Saturday night. New Faces yes! Is X-Factor/BGT/the voice not just an updated New Face. When I was at school it was very much looked down upon to want to get your hands dirty. There was a big move to point kids to being bankers lawyers and basically paper shufflers. Surprise surprise now the UK makes naff all and we've got nothing to get us out of a recession that was so obviously coming. Kit cars are an ideal way to inspire kids to get back to making things. We just need to get Blue Peter and Tomorrow's World back on prime TV instead of X Factor.
As to computers they are so 1980's! It all mobile phones, Ipads and downloads now with the kids.
As to kit cars in schools, a good idea. Do schools have any space for this or a set of tools?
MKnight702 said:
Hmm, been giving this more thought.
Where I think there may be a hole is in the light, sports, semi practical 4 seater. The classic version would be the Elan+2, the closest you will get now is the RX8 and maybe shortly the GT-86.
If the Kit Car industry could produce a 21st Century Elan+2 but with proper rear seats like an RX8, that was cheap to build using as many off the shelf parts as possible, had decent power from something like an Audi 1.8T up front, maybe running an Audi box moved to the rear like the Porsche 924 with torque tube to suit for better weight distribution.
Funny you should pick the only Elan never sold in kit form. I do question the use of rear wheel drive for your new Elan+2. Take the Midas or Mini Marcos (This start off as 2+2) both great design that use FWD and are quick fun cars. The Mini Marcos has a Le Mans history, to back up its performance looks.Where I think there may be a hole is in the light, sports, semi practical 4 seater. The classic version would be the Elan+2, the closest you will get now is the RX8 and maybe shortly the GT-86.
If the Kit Car industry could produce a 21st Century Elan+2 but with proper rear seats like an RX8, that was cheap to build using as many off the shelf parts as possible, had decent power from something like an Audi 1.8T up front, maybe running an Audi box moved to the rear like the Porsche 924 with torque tube to suit for better weight distribution.
I like the idea of 2+2 kit, but in the past these have not sold well, so wonder who would buy these today. Could a 3 seater fit this market as well? A mid engine 3 seater coupe? An Aeon GT3 fitted with a 1.8T!
Its to be hope the kit car industry move to offer new cars to different buyer car like a 2+2 coupe.
qdos said:
"well it met the standard and that is what was required of it."
As is shown above the Midas was crash tested and passed. I don't doubt there are other kits that could do it too. Don't go rubbishing kit cars just because they don't have the bits of paper associated with mass produced vehicles.
As I've said above there's not many production cars I'd get into as a passenger on a track and enjoy doing twice the speed limit in, let alone have a spin and go into the rough in.
I fear that one day kit cars will have to have that bit of paper. That would make the moans above IVA (and SVA) by manufacture look silly. Sadly I fear this could happen, as the kit car industry lacks a voice. Who did the govenment speak to about the SVA and IVA rules? The fact we don't know shows the problem! As is shown above the Midas was crash tested and passed. I don't doubt there are other kits that could do it too. Don't go rubbishing kit cars just because they don't have the bits of paper associated with mass produced vehicles.
As I've said above there's not many production cars I'd get into as a passenger on a track and enjoy doing twice the speed limit in, let alone have a spin and go into the rough in.
cymtriks said:
Back on topic:
Why is there only one Beauford when so many wedding car companies seem to have one?
Byers CR90
Evante
What happened to the TVR molds or even the Bristol Fighter? Could these make top end kits?
Marketing + Advertising- Advertising
- Marketing
- Ease of build
- Styling
- Keep it simple
- design to minimise stuff you aren't good at
- stop ignoring market segments
Why is there only one Beauford when so many wedding car companies seem to have one?
- stop abandoning potentially good kits
Byers CR90
Evante
What happened to the TVR molds or even the Bristol Fighter? Could these make top end kits?
As a rule this is poor. Just an advert in the kit car press and a few shows each years. Why, as most manufactures know little about how this works and its hard to find new buyer. An advert in a mainstream car mag will cost a lot and if small with disappear alongside the big adverts for production cars. Low response. Think differently try to get you cars where they will be seen, offer them for Film and TV use.
Ease of build
Why should a kit take months/years to build. http://www.tercyclo.it/
The Tercyclo show a car can be built in hours. Sadly it out of production current as the engine supplier closed. This shows it is possible to design easier to build cars, that could interest a different buyer. Finding them see above.
Styling
To many kit car seem to be engineers idea of styling. Go to the universities that train designers, these would love the chance to work on a car that will be come a really car not just a project. I imagine working on a car that real people will drive is different to one just to be put on show.
Stop ignoring market segments
Most kit car as sports/sportscars. There seem to only a little interest beyond that. As for 2+2 in the past these have never sold well, in the future?
I agree there are segments that are open to kit cars. One is for a Smart Roadster, Suzuki Cappuccino or Berkeley style small sports cars (under 1000cc).
stop abandoning potentially good kits
Caterham 21 not a kit car.
As to the TVR molds I understand some are in the kit car world, but most left the country for location unknown. Poland is one location, as is Italy or Germany for the most recent. I thought the Bristol Fighter used aluminum, I know most Bristol did. As they are now owned by Frazer Nash they most likely have all the tooling for this. I like Bristol car and understand why it failed with Fighter. It lacked the funds needed to market and develop a big sporting GT to take on Aston Martin and Ferrari. Classicly it sold to people who wanted quality, hand build car that was different and fast. The Fighter try to be a extreme performance car with all that meant but keeping that hand built feel. It did not worker, as the buyer got that from an Aston or Bentley GT without the problems of owning a Bristol. A very rare car, that most people did not know and it looked odd.
Sam_68 said:
The industry has had one for years: STATUS.
The list of members is available here. Note the small number of kit manufacturers.
Why doesn't it work?
I'm guessing because it costs money, so the majority of manufacturers aren't willing to support it, 'cos the industry isn't profitable enough for them to recoup those costs...
Similarly with professional design/development. I have some idea how much this costs, and it ain't pretty. The sad truth is that the size of the current kit car market isn't big enough to allow manufacturers to amortise the costs of 'proper' design and development across the relatively small numbers of cars being sold.
Visiting the site and read about them, they appeared to more of support group for manufacturers and technology development. None of the people listed seem to be connect to or come from the kit car industry. I feel the kit industry need more than this. It is a start.The list of members is available here. Note the small number of kit manufacturers.
Why doesn't it work?
I'm guessing because it costs money, so the majority of manufacturers aren't willing to support it, 'cos the industry isn't profitable enough for them to recoup those costs...
Similarly with professional design/development. I have some idea how much this costs, and it ain't pretty. The sad truth is that the size of the current kit car market isn't big enough to allow manufacturers to amortise the costs of 'proper' design and development across the relatively small numbers of cars being sold.
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