Has Button broken Hamilton?

[The Pits]

LH seems a broken man now. Is JB's success in the same car the final straw or is it just about tyre management these days. I imagine it's killing lewis having to hold back so much during a race.

[The Pits]

I'm a huge fan of Hamilton. This is not a pro Button post, although I can only admire what he's achieved since joining McLaren.

But I've never seen Lewis as 'down' as he appears currently. I can't help that your supposedly inferior team mate is getting on the podium at every race in an identical car. I think for someone of an F1 drivers mentality it can start affecting you psychologically.

I'm geniunely interested as to whether or not F1 is just becoming about tyre management, which would play perhaps more to Buttons strengths. Lewis seems out of sorts in a winning car. Never seen that before but I seriously hope he gets his mojo back before the end of the season.

[The Pits]

I actually think without the mistakes and failures mclaren could have pushed red bull to the end of the season. A big part of vettels dominance is the freakish reliability record of the car. A more normal season with a few dnf's and a few mclaren one twos would have seen them right up there. The car has won 5 races and there's nothing in it performance wise anymore. I think that's what's getting to LH, the car is good so he has only himself and the team to blame.

I personally suspect both him and Schumacher think all this tyre management is rubbish and frustrating. They both just want to go flat out to the flag but instead you've got engineers in your ear telling you to make the tyres last. Without a change in that I can't see LH enjoying 2012 much more either. Which would be a real shame as he is a huge talent.

[The Pits]

To even enter the debate as to whether or not Mansell was in Prost and Senna's league is to acknowlege his greatness.

He raced the very best and beat them fair and square on a number of notable occasions. He also brought the best out of Senna and Prost and his various illustrious team mates, even when he wasn't winning. That's good enough for me.

Most of his detractors mention the way he spoke which is pathetic, stupid and brain-bogglingly irrelevant. He may not have had the glamour of the more exotic drivers, so alluring to many british motorsport officionados but he had the courage, commitment and determination to match anyone.

The tifosi don't give out accolades like 'Il Leoni' lightly.

His dominance in '92 had a lot to do with his bravery and physicality. The active suspension era placed entirely new demands on the drivers and no-one got more out of that technology than that brummie.

But seriously, this is the business of another topic for another day.

[The Pits]

It's one thing to come 5th.

Quite another when your supposedly slower team mate comes 1st in the same car.

I fully expect Hamilton to win again before the end of the season. If he doesn't then there really is something awry.

[The Pits]

JB has finished ahead of LH in each of the last 5 races.

LH hasn't been on the podium since July.

Four podiums in total.

Something's not right.

Because there's nothing wrong with the car.

[The Pits]

I will say in Hamilton's defence that I'm shocked how slowly they have to drive at times to preserve the tyres. Short shifting, taking different lines, there were times when Schumacher looked to be doing no more than cruising. McLaren also seem to be cutting it fine with fuel which means holding back on engine performance too.

Certainly F1 cars and drivers only go flat out only when absolutely necessary now. Vettel seems to prefer to pull out a gap early on and control the race from there which is working well for him. Alonso catching Button in Suzuka towards the end was simply Ferrari allowing a bit more performance while McLaren crunch the numbers to make sure Button had enough fuel to finish. As soon as he got the all clear, he pulled the pin and dropped Alonso like a hot spud, setting the fastest lap of the race for good measure. That's proof that there's a big difference between the performance potential in the car and the performance available to use for most of the race.

For what it's worth, my guess is that this is at the heart of Hamilton's disatisfaction. He went into F1 to race flat out from flag to flag. But now he's told to slow down if he wants to win. Accepting the rules and being intelligent about it is what you need to do now, just as it was when grooved tyres came in etc. Nothing new there but being one of the most naturally quick drivers on the grid isn't helping Lewis much at the moment. I think of all of them holding back must be driving Lewis nuts. I think the crashing is connected to it too because the speed differential between the cars at different times of the race is considerable, which makes these things harder to judge. Although in fairness Button is currently the sports most prolific overtaker and manages to do it cleanly almost without exception.

While I have untold respect for what Button has achieved at McLaren I think the current rules favour a Prost approach over a Senna approach. I'm hoping that another win soon will remind Lewis that the glorious end justifies the frustrating means.

Edited by The Pits on Thursday 13th October 10:05

[The Pits]

To be fair to Hamilton, JB said one of the things he most admired about Lewis was his ability to extract performance from a car that wasn't set up properly/performing right. As we all know Jensen requires the car to be precisely to his liking to perform at his best. In comparision Lewis is known to be able to make any old crate lap quickly. Certainly the Hamilton had the upper hand when the McLaren wasn't as competitive as it is now. So I have no doubt in his ability to get the most out of a mid-field car.

The thing that's baking his noodle, I'd wager, is being told to go slow in an F1 car. To Lewis that just doesn't compute.

Hopefully another win soon will persuade him that it's worth it.

[The Pits]

I for one would love to see a McLaren one-two this weekend. Both in qualifying and in the race.

And I'd like to see Lewis in the number one spot. It would make for a more exciting end to the season.

[The Pits]

1. Hamilton
2. Vettel
3. Button

I'll take that on the condition that Jenson mugs Vettel at the start, and if Vettel puts him on the grass again, he gets a drive through at the very least.

Great to see Lewis back on pole. If he can rediscover his form (a win tomorrow would hopefully do the trick) then we are in for a real treat for the rest of the season as I reckon both he and Jenson could well be battling for wins in the remaining races.

[The Pits]

Very pleased for Lewis that he's broken Vettels stranglehold on pole.

However he still doesn't seem remotely happy in interviews. Maybe it shows, quite rightly, that he places a much higher value on Sunday results?

But I strongly suspect that something will be revealed about what's going on in his private life before long.

I can't believe that losing to Jenson recently can be making him quite that upset.

This looks more like he caught his old man in the sack with Nicole!

[The Pits]

It would seem that being beaten by Button really has been getting to him.

From BBC's F1 web page:

"But Hamilton, said he was pleased to take second with a strong drive and to finish above team-mate Jenson Button, who was fourth.

I'm happy to be the one that's got the most points for the team this weekend."

That's racing drivers for you I guess.

[The Pits]

oyster said:

Sorry that's rubbish. Petrov's Renault simply had so much more traction leading onto that main straight and then had a very good top end which was enough to prevent an overtake. Nobody could pass Kubica in the sister Renault either.
Vettel at Barcelona also had much greater traction than Hamilton out of the final corner and even with DRS, Hamilton couldn't get past.

Look at Hamilton/Webber in Korea, the traction Hamilton had in turn 1 meant that even with a faster car and DRS, Webber still couldn't get past. Are you saying Webber lacks balls too?

No but there WDC was at stake and Webber still had more of a go at Hamilton (passed him too) than Alonso did at Petrov.

[The Pits]

I think everyone is hugely underestimating the emotional turmoil that he's under right now. I think he's taken the break-up from NS pretty hard and I think that is the core of his recent unhappiness. JB doing a brilliant job can't help but I think it's not the central issue. Let's not forget that Hamilton drove an absolutely brilliant race in Korea. It will have to go down as one of best 2nd places ever (the best ever being Damon Hill's Hungary 2nd in the Arrows surely?). He had to fight really hard for that one while Vettel tootled around at 85%. If they didn't have to manage tyres and fuel I think Vettels red bull would be winning by huge margins.

I've seen people from all walks of life have their careers knocked off course from a break-up. Just look at the number that women did on Mike Tyson, Tiger Woods, the list is endless. The good news is that it will pass but I think we should give him a break just now. I mean, for one thing it means having to settle for the 2nd best looking woman in the world at best! I personally thought it pretty cool that a bloke from Stevenage managed to bag her. I'd love to have seen her face meeting the inlaws!

So in conclusion to my own question. I don't think Button broke Hamilton but Sherzinger did. I for one wish Lewis all the best. All the money and fame in the world doesn't count for much when your heart is broken. Bloody handy when you're back on your feet again though

[The Pits]

Ecurie Ecosse said:

I would say Gilles' 2nd place at Dijon is the best ever.

without question a contender. perhaps this is worth a thread of it's own?

[The Pits]

JB continues to impress. To match Hamilton over two years, so closely is exceptional. Take Vettel's freakish year out of the equation and he's produced the nearest thing to a champion's season, hitting the podium relentlessly and his wins have been absolutely exceptional, Canada being among the best ever. Not only has he beaten Lewis in an identical car over the season (never thought I'd see that) but Alonso and Webber in the runaway championship winning car as well.

I very much doubt McLaren are building the car around Jenson, even though it's very clear that he has endeared himself to the team. I think it's more likely that the regs do play more to his strengths than Lewis, so building a car to work to the regulations may produce a car that Button finds it easier to exploit.

However I'm delighted that Lewis won yesterday. I think he's had his annus horribilis this year and winning is the best medicine for any F1 driver. It will also make for a much better season next year if we have an in form Hamilton. Someone has to make Vettel sweat for his next title and Lewis would be just the man for the job. Most significant for me was that it was a very controlled win, Lewis maintaining the gap for the whole race, adjusting his pace up and down where necessary. It was a 2011 style win, the kind Vettel has been doing all season, pull out a gap then maintain it. Drive slow enough when necessary to win. Prost would have loved this era I suspect and quite possibly Senna would have hated it. Whether it's Button's influence or not I think yesterday was the day Lewis got his head round how to win. Hopefully he enjoyed it enough to consider it worthwhile. It turns out the flat-out racer can win proffesseur style too. Adapting a previously successful style to get the job done is very hard to do and is the mark of one of the greats.

[The Pits]

If anyone thinks with any degree of seriousness for one moment that either:

'Jenson is amazing and Lewis isn't all that'

or

'Lewis is amazing and Jenson isn't all that'

you've lost touch with reality.

They're both impossibly talented as has been proven beyond doubt this season alone with three wins apiece being the only thing getting in the way of total red bull domination.

The last race also showed beyond doubt that Lewis isn't broken, by JB or anyone else. He's had a tough year behind the scenes, that's all.

Give those two a competitive car and they'll be Red Bull's worst nightmare.

Roll on 2012.

[The Pits]

Mansell 'the unfit brummie', the usual prejudice

that might be how you like to see him for your own personal reasons but he was a karate blackbelt in his spare time so unfit is highly unlikely. He was also known as being very physically strong and able to wring more speed out of the car by brute force, hence his exhaustion post race. It's truly pathetic to suggest that he was putting it on without any knowledge of what he was doing in the car or what his car was like to drive. He used to set the car up to his advantage which made it a very physcial car to drive.

[The Pits]

Melvin Udall said:

How do you wring more out of a car using brute strength?

You use it to turn into the corner faster, which he did and which requires more strength. Mansell had the fastest corner entry speed of any driver of his era, which helped for overtaking of course. He pioneered the 'pointy' set up as preferred by Schumacher (another hugely physically fit driver, by far the fittest and strongest of his era). This means a front end screwed down, emphasis over front end grip at the expense of the rear which allows faster corner entry but a harder car to control during the exit phase of the corner. Another thing Mansell and Schumacher have in common is that their cars were considered nearly undriveable by other drivers who tried their set-ups.

[The Pits]

remember this is long before power steering was allowed in F1.

have you ever driven a single seater? they are very physical to drive. Heck 20 minutes in a kart is exhausting and very hard work on the arms when cornering.