How to revitalise rallying?
Discussion
As above really, I just thought I'd throw this open to the PH Massive.
Back in the '90s, rallying was my favourite motor sport bar none, and I can remember rushing home to catch Top Gear Motorsport with Tony Mason to see the coverage of the day's action. Nearly every manufacturer seemed to be involved, we'd get full round-up coverage at the end of each day, the drivers were recognisable superstars (Colin McRae was as well-known as any premiership footballer back in 1994), they sold loads of computer games off the back of it so there was clear interest among young fans as much as adults, and rallying was huge.
I'd like to see it back where it was. Any ideas?
My 2p:
-Merge the IRC and WRC. More rounds, more cars, more manufacturers and more drivers can only be a good thing, plus I suspect the likes of Mikkelsen are more than capable of holding their own against Loeb et al.
-Base the cars on road-legal production models. I don't mean some expensive, economically unviable homologation run. Set the rules so the cars on the rally stage have to be capable of being bought and specced if you had deep enough pockets. Take Ford for example - You can buy a Fiesta and take it to Mountune for modifications. Whether in-house or privateer-based, this process should always be possible for road cars. They needn't specifically have to sell a certain number, and obviously this will help shift a load of hot hatches by association. I'm almost tempted to suggest they can only use 4WD if the production car has it.
-Bring back touring stages. Rather than having everything packed into a small area or even an arena, they should have stages all over the country with transfer stages run to regularity rules in between. Physically spreading out the action means they can scoop up more spectators.
-They need a major terrestrial/digital broadcaster behind them. This needn't necessarily be a front-line channel (BBC1/2, ITV1, C4 etc), simply because I recognise that it's not going to grab as big an audience as, say, the football or the athletics. However, the superb entire-day's-motor-sport coverage we get on ITV4 on BTCC racedays suggests there's capacity for it. Perhaps a 'rallying roundup' could be added to the end of the BTCC programme, or they could do a more substantial show on non-BTCC weekends. Still, ITV4 proves there's mileage in non-F1 motor sport coverage.
Over to you - how do we get rallying back to where it was in the '90s?
Back in the '90s, rallying was my favourite motor sport bar none, and I can remember rushing home to catch Top Gear Motorsport with Tony Mason to see the coverage of the day's action. Nearly every manufacturer seemed to be involved, we'd get full round-up coverage at the end of each day, the drivers were recognisable superstars (Colin McRae was as well-known as any premiership footballer back in 1994), they sold loads of computer games off the back of it so there was clear interest among young fans as much as adults, and rallying was huge.
I'd like to see it back where it was. Any ideas?
My 2p:
-Merge the IRC and WRC. More rounds, more cars, more manufacturers and more drivers can only be a good thing, plus I suspect the likes of Mikkelsen are more than capable of holding their own against Loeb et al.
-Base the cars on road-legal production models. I don't mean some expensive, economically unviable homologation run. Set the rules so the cars on the rally stage have to be capable of being bought and specced if you had deep enough pockets. Take Ford for example - You can buy a Fiesta and take it to Mountune for modifications. Whether in-house or privateer-based, this process should always be possible for road cars. They needn't specifically have to sell a certain number, and obviously this will help shift a load of hot hatches by association. I'm almost tempted to suggest they can only use 4WD if the production car has it.
-Bring back touring stages. Rather than having everything packed into a small area or even an arena, they should have stages all over the country with transfer stages run to regularity rules in between. Physically spreading out the action means they can scoop up more spectators.
-They need a major terrestrial/digital broadcaster behind them. This needn't necessarily be a front-line channel (BBC1/2, ITV1, C4 etc), simply because I recognise that it's not going to grab as big an audience as, say, the football or the athletics. However, the superb entire-day's-motor-sport coverage we get on ITV4 on BTCC racedays suggests there's capacity for it. Perhaps a 'rallying roundup' could be added to the end of the BTCC programme, or they could do a more substantial show on non-BTCC weekends. Still, ITV4 proves there's mileage in non-F1 motor sport coverage.
Over to you - how do we get rallying back to where it was in the '90s?
pablo said:
due to the nature of the event, long distances through woods etc, its such a labour intensive branch of motorsport that its difficult to do much to revitalise it save for tinkering about with the eligibility criteria.
they need to make it as easy as starting sprinting becuase thats what it effectively is albeit on loose surfaces. personally, i would introduce a class for single seater buggies using sat nav or something. organisers need to make it more cost effective for comeptitors and reduce the need to have half a dozen mates and things to help out.
if that means purpose built stages 2-4 miles long in a forest or something then that might be the answer.
Thing is, I often find myself out on walks thinking 'this track would make for a cracking rally stage'. There are plenty of places they could be run - perhaps in conjunction with the National Trust? - and there are all manner of historic rallies which manage to use forest and gravel stages all over the country - so why are the modern cars confined to Wales and Ireland?they need to make it as easy as starting sprinting becuase thats what it effectively is albeit on loose surfaces. personally, i would introduce a class for single seater buggies using sat nav or something. organisers need to make it more cost effective for comeptitors and reduce the need to have half a dozen mates and things to help out.
if that means purpose built stages 2-4 miles long in a forest or something then that might be the answer.
I like your buggy idea. It goes back to my idea re. eligibility - you should be able to buy a hot hatch from a showroom, take it to someone like Mountune or Prodrive, and emerge with something identical to that used by the teams. That way, it's easier for privateers to get involved and fill the grid. Also, the onus isn't going to be on the manufacturers to justify homologation runs - they'll become the bread-and-butter of the (usually British) motor sport preparation outfits, but you'll still be able to buy one to use on the road if you go to the right place. Also, it lends the various manufacturers' cars extra credibility that they can play up to with tribute editions that can be great to drive but don't necessarily cost them too much to produce - I'm thinking of Skoda's Fabia Monte Carlo edition here.
I think part of the disconnect between rallying and its audience has happened as a result of the cars. Back in the Group A era, because of the homologation rules there was a notion that you could buy (or aspire to buy) one of the homologation cars and emulate your heroes. Nowadays, whenever you see a 4WD turbo rally Fiesta in action, yes it looks great, but you know you can never buy one, so it loses some relevance.
However, if they were rallying in what essentially was a Fiesta ST, all stripped out with an entire Mountune catalogue thrown at it, that attainability comes back, and you go out and buy a Fiesta ST because of it.
I guess rallying needs the equivalent of F1's downsizing from traction-controlled V10s and Schumacher/Ferrari dominance to V8s and cheaper cars allowing more teams to take part. I suppose the NGTC rules in the BTCC are similar - although the cars aren't exactly similar to those you can buy in showrooms, the rules are such that you couldn't just run a total silhouette car. The drive has to go to the same end, the bodywork can't be too radically altered, and generally speaking there's usually a turbo petrol engine fitted to a model with an aggressive bodykit somewhere in the range cashing in on it.
The BTCC has gone from a tiresome Vauxhall-dominated procession to one of the most exciting motor sport series on the planet in a scant few seasons. Rallying could learn from this.
Nick M said:
So, maybe to turn it round the other way and end this with a question, maybe one way to revive rallying is for manufacturers to go back to building some 'homologation special' versions of the rally cars so people can buy what they see on the stages ? That way if people see 'rally cars' on the road it might spark their interest to check out rallying again, and maybe even buy a car which is, at the end of the day, what rallying is about, i.e. marketing.
Well, I'd argue that rallying is as much about endurance and development as marketing, but that's by the by.I think part of the problem with the 'homologation' era was that it cost the manufacturers too much, so they pulled out in droves. Think about it - if you've got to set aside part of your production line to build 200/500/1000 'special' versions of a car you already build, it starts to look unforgivably expensive on the balance sheet.
However, if the car had to start life as a production-line showroom car (albeit the hottest version), and the transformation from road car to rally car was handled by an outside tuner (in the manner of the BTCC), then it'd be easier for manufacturers to manage and market their 'rally specials' (they'd just have to build 'tribute' versions of their hot hatches), what would look like hard work to a manufacturer becomes a great lifeblood contract for a third-party motor sport preparation firm, and punters could buy these cars in the showroom knowing they were only an overhaul away from being the cars on the rally stage - then they'd be simultaneously cheaper for the manufacturers, better news for Britain's motor sport sector, more appealing to buyers and easier to compete in.
EDLT said:
Furyblade_Lee said:
I'd love to see a generic off the shelf floorpan, with RWD or 4WD transmission ( preferably RWD ) and control suspension and rollcage installed. Any manufacturer can then purchase one, add it's own N/A or turbocharged powerplant and it's own silhouette bodyshell mimicking one of it's current models. Aerodynamics controlled too. BUT the cars must be to a set price and privateers must be able to purchase a car off the shelf from whoever they want. Maybe a limit of £300k for a car?? And engines like in F1, have to be lifed to last a certain time, have rev limits, and breath through restrictors.
That wouldn't be much of a saving, a WRC car already costs between £300,000 and £400,000 depending on who you ask. A simple spaceframe and standardised suspension doesn't need to be high-tech if everyone is using the same thing.ArnageWRC said:
What is good for the WRC isn’t neccessarily what the Manufacturers want – and that is the main problem – they’ve got what they’ve wanted over the last 10 years – and taken the sport down a blind alley.
That's why I reckon my idea would work. The 'constructor's championship' would effectively be fought between independent garagistes starting with a showroom model. Given the fact that manufacturers would continue to build hot hatches anyway, it wouldn't actually affect their overheads at all - it would channel interest towards the showroom and they could continue to give us great-looking rally-inspired specials like this:
People would watch the rally, like the car and buy the showroom model knowing that if they wanted to they could get a load of extra bits fitted to make it just the same. It's like homologation in that it has to be proven the car can be built and road-legal, but it doesn't carry the detrimental economies-of-scale cots for the manufacturer.
EDLT said:
Bedazzled said:
ditch the mickey-mouse super specials and tarmac stages;
No Corsica, Germany or (weather dependent) Monte Carlo?I take it nobody likes my modified soft roader idea then?
EDLT said:
Twincam16 said:
EDLT said:
Bedazzled said:
ditch the mickey-mouse super specials and tarmac stages;
No Corsica, Germany or (weather dependent) Monte Carlo?I take it nobody likes my modified soft roader idea then?
There is the Juke, Countryman, Evoque, Yeti, X1, Q3, Kuga, Rav4 and SX4 all of which are roughly the same length and width as an Impreza STI/Evo X. Since most are based on a car platform it shouldn't be too hard to lower them enough for tarmac use (or just keep them jacked up and tell the drivers to MTFU) and most have got small turbo charged engines to choose from too.
John D. said:
Homogolation specials are just plain cool. Not sure its the way forward though as it pushes up costs building them all, unless the required number is very few.
Which is why you could get around it by using a standard road car and just homologating the parts used to modify it, which would be made by someone else.Business for the motor sport companies, no outlay required for the manufacturers.
Nick M said:
John D. said:
Homogolation specials are just plain cool. Not sure its the way forward though as it pushes up costs building them all, unless the required number is very few.
Done properly though, they could help defray the cost of your rally team by being cars people *will* buy - ask Ford (Escort and Sierra Cosworths), Subaru, Mitsubishi, all of whom made 'homologation' cars sell in sensible numbers - rather than relying on some questionable marketing BS about how TV footage translates into a %age of the sales of shopping cars in the showrooms.IMO the most obvious rally-cars-in-waiting are the Suzuki Kizashi and the BMW 1-series. Reworked the Kizashi could give Subaru a thing or two to think about, and the 1-series could be a sort-of neo-Mk1/2 Escort.
JB! said:
As someone who BUILT JWRC cars.
Cars are too complex and expensive.
S1600 Swifts run:
Brembo 6-pots with floating discs in 2 sizes for gravel/tarmac.
Coilovers with on-board remote resivoiors.
Hewland 6spd sequential box
Bespoke uprights
S1600 200+bhp engine
Custom bodywork
None of which you can buy from your local dealer.
This, plus the lack of coverage, and boring tactics are killing WRC.
I wish more historic and road rallies & rallycross were televised!
Actually, given the success of ITV's BTCC coverage, I wonder if there'd be any merit in covering the British Rally Championship?Cars are too complex and expensive.
S1600 Swifts run:
Brembo 6-pots with floating discs in 2 sizes for gravel/tarmac.
Coilovers with on-board remote resivoiors.
Hewland 6spd sequential box
Bespoke uprights
S1600 200+bhp engine
Custom bodywork
None of which you can buy from your local dealer.
This, plus the lack of coverage, and boring tactics are killing WRC.
I wish more historic and road rallies & rallycross were televised!
Cars more similar to showroom models, local interest, more English and Scottish stages - OK, so the drivers aren't household names (yet) but the action might be more exciting. Cheaper to film too, I'd imagine.
sanf said:
Create regs with
fixed power & torque figure
fixed gearbox spec
must use an existing shell from the manufacturer
put a max budget allowence in place
never do more than 13 rounds, 10 fixed, 3 on rotation
makes rallies less perscriptive - reccy, non reccy, give them more flexibility
scrap super rally - focus on endurance
stop obessing about TV deals, and reach out to get the fans on the stages watching
create a spirit of adventure
- then allow manufacturers to to create anything based around that. 4wd/2wd, turbo, non turbo, big engine, small engine, petrol, diesel, hybrid.....as long as they fit within the rules.
I wonder - do you think TOCA could take it over?fixed power & torque figure
fixed gearbox spec
must use an existing shell from the manufacturer
put a max budget allowence in place
never do more than 13 rounds, 10 fixed, 3 on rotation
makes rallies less perscriptive - reccy, non reccy, give them more flexibility
scrap super rally - focus on endurance
stop obessing about TV deals, and reach out to get the fans on the stages watching
create a spirit of adventure
- then allow manufacturers to to create anything based around that. 4wd/2wd, turbo, non turbo, big engine, small engine, petrol, diesel, hybrid.....as long as they fit within the rules.
Your ideas for a specification sound not unlike those for the NGTC-spec Touring Cars, and ever since they've been brought in the BTCC's been like it was in the '90s, with multiple winners per round and fantastic on-track action because the cars are so evenly matched.
NGRC. Hmmm.
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