Hill Climbing/Sprinting, anyone with experience?

[SWoll]

Evening All,

I've been looking at getting a weekend toy for a while now and am struggling to find something that fits the bill. Off the back of this I've started to look at getting something just for trackdays which has then evolved into an interest in hillclimbing/sprinting.

Has anyone on here got any experience in either discipline they would care to share and possibly thoughts on a good starter car?

Looking at a budget of about £5k initially to cover the car, mods and kit as don't want too sink too much in and find out it's not for me or I just don't have the time for it I'd hoped.

I've got access to a car transporter/trailer and my current car can act as the tow vehicle quite happily so that part is covered, and I'll be involving a mate or two and my FIL who between them have access to every tool known to man and many years of spannering experience.

Preference would be RWD and at 6.4" smaller cars like MX-5'/MR2 unfortunately aren't viable as I don't fit. I was thinking along the lines of an E46 330i with the interior stripped, race seats, harnesses, suspension/brake/Tyre upgrade?

Any thoughts welcome.

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The jury seems ot be out on the LSD question, I've read a few people who suggest they are essential while others have run cars without them and have no complaints. Will have to research further.

Unfortunately I don't fit in the 182/197 with the stock seats so not sure if I'd manage it with a helmet on even if the seat was a bit lower.

Had one of these back in 99 so could be tempted again, although would have to up the budget a bit possibly..

Thnaks for the links, will definitely check them out.

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I'm based 5 minutes from Curborough Sprint Track so plan on going along next time there is a meet on and I'm free to get a feel for how it works.

TBH I'm not fussed about being competitive, I'd be doing it purely for the enjoyment factor and as an alternative to just doing standard track days.

My road car is a company A6 Avant so in no way suitable and would definitely need to buy something. The whole build part of the experience is also hugely appealing so not convinced i would want to buy a ready made car, although I'm sure it would work out considerably cheaper to do so in the long run.

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speedtwelve said:

I autosolo & sprint a VX220 and MR2 Mk3. You could run either with the roof off? How about an RX8 231? Headroom, excellent handling, decent pace.

Salesy said:

I have sprinted for 4 years now and also compete in Autosolos.

As for the sprints it all depends on what class you want to run in. Class A1 up to 1600cc on standard road tyres, A2 up to 2000cc on standard road tyres or using list 1a or 1b tyres classes A3 up to 1600cc or A4 up to 2300cc.

i used to run a mk1 Eunos in A1 which was great fun but it just was not powerful enough and would lose by the narrowest of margins to the Citreon Saxos.
I moved into A2 with a Mazda RX8 PZ and that was a class winner straight out of the box. In the 3 1/2 years i have owned it i have only been beaten twice, both times i was beaten it was by a honda integrated type R DC2. The driver is pretty handy too. He had the advantage of having been to Goodwood a few times before whereas i had never even been round the circuit. Since then i have beaten him around Goodwood.

Class A2 Seems to be the most popular and at our events can sometimes have between 8 and 20 cars.

The Clios do well too but struggle getting the power down through the front wheels.

I will be out at North Weald Airfield on the 30th of this month in my Clio cup. I didn't want to tax the RX for the past month just for one race, so i thought i would see what i can do on the clio.

My race suit i managed to get from eBay after is was reposed by one of these storage comapanies and my helmet is a cheap one with SNELL 2010 certification. Don't forget you will also need gloves.

The suggestion of a BMW 330 is a waste of time as you jump into class A5 with the likes of porsche GT3 RS etc.
I have attached some regs for this months event which you can have a read through, if you want some more info i am happy to answer any questions.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6l0urTaRWX5SEZaN...

Thanks guys. The RX8 definitely sounds like a strong possibility then and wil scrap all thoughts of the 330.

Obvoiusly aware of the apparent issues/maintenence requirements of the wankel engine so any further experience with that or tips on what to look out for would be greatly appreciated.

For the A2 class are we talking a totally stock car or are modifications to brakes/suspension/interior allowed?

EDIT - Can't believe how cheap a good one looks https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/.... Definitely needs serious consideration.

ecsrobin said:

And if going down the sprint route (don't know about the others except Autosolo that requires nothing) don't forget to allow money for a snell2010 or newer helmet, a suit that is FIA 8856 2000 or FIA 1986 standard and flame resistant gloves.

It all adds up as I'm finding out.

Indeed, I've already factored this into the budget as I reckon another £750 could easily be spent on all of this + boots?

Edited by SWoll on Sunday 16th April 08:55

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Salesy said:

Class A2 is for standard road going un modified cars.

From memory you can fit a panel filter and swap the rear exhaust box, you can also fit things like roll cages and racing seats.
No other modifications are allowed. Brakes have to remain as standard fitted on the car and I think a new rule for this year is that the car is to be as it left the Factory without aftermarket wheels or other accessories but happy to be corrected.

The RX8 has not been any trouble at all. The only cost I have had is tyres and brakes.
I did have another gearbox fitted as 2nd gear synchro was broke.

Cheers salesy. I've just pulled down a copy of the MSA blue book and regs for 2017 so will have a good read through.

Just edited my post above to say I can't believe how cheap a good one of these looks? Definitely looks like a decent car + any allowable mods + safety gear would come in under the £5k budget I've got in my head.

On another note, I've been discussing this with a mate of mine and he's dead keen on getting involved, which would obviously halve the outlay. I believe sprint/hill climbing allow shared driving of the car?

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Thanks D G.

A mate of mine has an MX-5 (MK3 I believe) and unfortunately driving it has always proven very uncomfortable for me otherwise it would be a definite contender. Although 6.4" I'm not long of leg so would be a bit concerned at the propsect of rolling a car where my head is above the line of the windscreen for example..

This started out as a search for a track day car for a bit of fun and the sprint/HC consideration came later as a 'what else could I do with it?' so not too concerned about buying the car, especially at the budget I'm looking at.

Reading through the blue book now and I'm not sure I'd define everything as 'clear'.

It looks like springs/dampers/bushes can be upgraded as can brake pads, interior changes are a little more vague as the reg reads "interior trim must remain fitted with the exception of carpets/mats", so does this mean front seats can be upgraded assuming there are still 2 of them?

Can't find anything in there with regards to induction/exhaust requirements so would need to look into that.

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D_G said:

The rule of thumb is road production allows mods and standard production doesn't, be aware of the different class structures that are about too. My Lancer Gsr has uprated suspension, brakes, exhaust & induction and I've changed the seats and added harnesses. Runs in road production as it's Road legal and all the trim except the carpet is still inside and all the systems are still there (electric windows etc). We are also allowed 1b tyres in the South West.

Yes, road production is what I was looking at where more fiddling seems to be allowed. So an RX-8 with seats, harness, uprated suspension, brake pads, exhaust and induction would fall into what overall class as this is where I get confused at the minute?

Out of interest what are the requirements for 'road legal' as the car itself would not be used or kept on the road so not taxed or insured for that use for example? MOT testing would be possible though so I assume that is all that is required?

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carl_w said:

Seriously, I would run in Standard Production until you decide if you like it or not, before spending money on harness, suspension, exhaust, induction, etc.

Car needs to be taxed, insured and have an MOT. These will be checked at signing on.

So I'd need to pay for road tax and road insurance even when the car isn't going to be used on the road just to meet regulations? That being the case I'm not sure a £750 a year cost for something that isn't used is something I'd be happy shelling out.

With regards to the mods, as above this started out as an interest in building a track day only car so even if competing isn't for me that purpose would still be valid.

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D_G said:

It's been brilliant, with double drives has done c. 120 competitive events with very little problem and is reasonably competitive.

Anyway back to the OP, the RX8 will have a rotary loading to determine capacity, could be down as a 2.6 litre so likely to be in the unlimited class. If so be prepared to have your ass handed to you as there is usually some serious machinery in this class!

Checked the loading and it's as below in the 2017 Blue Book

10.3.2. Rotary engine equivalence 1.5. Forced
induction rotary equivalence (1.4 x 1.5) = 2.1.

So as the engine is 1.3 and not FI I'd assume 1.95? Unless I'm missing something?

D_G said:

Tax and MOT yes, insurance no.

That's annoying. Anyone know the VED cost for a 2004 RX-8? £300?

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GC8 said:

Tax and insurance are both linked now - the days when you could buy a 12mth disc and keep a taxed but uninsured car passed over two years ago. No insurance requires SORN which cancels tax.

Need to understand this better as like I say that's a £600-700 yearly bill for a car that won't be used on the public road (I assume sprint/hill climbs are closed/private roads?)

This was one of the things that appealed in comparison to autotesting etc. where you have to drive the car to the event so obviously tax and insurance are mandatory.

When they say 'valid insurance certificate' would that not just be for the event itself as a standard road policy wouldn't cover you anyway?

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Galveston said:

Interesting... I'm 6'7". There's no way I can fit in an MX5 but I sprint/hillclimb a 172 Cup and it's fine.

I love the Clio; mine's bog-standard (it even runs Renault pads) but it's fairly competitive in A3, lots of fun, and (touch wood) completely reliable.

Tried a 172 many years ago when they first came out and didn't fit so no idea how you're getting in!

I suppose a replacement seat set a lot lower than standard would help significantly so worth considering, always had a soft spot for Renault Sport stuff. Having had a quick check it looks like even 197's are within budget nowadays so will research further.

Cheers

[SWoll]

Galveston said:

SWoll said:

Tried a 172 many years ago when they first came out and didn't fit so no idea how you're getting in!

I suppose a replacement seat set a lot lower than standard would help significantly so worth considering, always had a soft spot for Renault Sport stuff. Having had a quick check it looks like even 197's are within budget nowadays so will research further.

Cheers

The 172/182 have spacers under the front seats which can be removed and make more difference than you'd expect for 12mm.

Personally I don't think 197/200s are any quicker than a 172/182 at a typical speed event. More power but also more weight.

Seems to be the general consensus and the light weight obviously helps with handling/braking/tyres also. 182's seem to be £2-3k so definitely in budget.

[SWoll]

Well, I've spent all day looking into this whilst doing other things and discussing with my potential co-pilot.

Still struggling with the different classes as having read the championship regulations for my local club it appears that other than race seats + uprated dampers (with production ride height retained) no modifications are allowed,which seems to contradict what is in the MSA rules?



Co-pilot not keen on Clio, had a 172 one many years ago apparently and had lots of issues so sworn off them. RX-8 still considered but concerns around maintenance costs abound, which is fair I think. Still my preference though as RWD and an LSD appeals.

EP3 CTR looks a good option, and having checked appears to do well fighting out for top 3 with Fiesta ST's at my local course. Thinking with new pads, Toyo T1R's and a CG Lock for the drivers belt might be a good starting point?

Thanks for all of the replies so far everyone, really helpful stuff.

Edited by SWoll on Sunday 16th April 21:09

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andye30m3 said:

I did a few years sprinting.

I'd recommend an S2000 in the standard up to 2.0 litre class, although they maybe slightly out of budget.

I did look at the S2000 but they are going for decent money now and earlier cars aren't renowned for their progressive handling traits. Definitely a good call though as there are 4 running in the 1B class at my local club, all in the top 4..

df76 said:

The SDCC regs are definitely a bit confusing. But they are running "standard" classes. Classes "S". Whereas classes "1" run to the msa roadgoing production regs... they (SDCC) use the word "modified" which doesn't help. A standard ep3 type r would be very competitive in the sub 2 litre class.

I've used a CG lock, and they are very good when using a three point harness. Recommended.

There would be better tyre than the Toyo T1R. You do need to be careful with the current msa tyre lists though, as many of the latest releases are not included. Depending on your sizes and if running list 1a tyres, I would be looking at: Michelin pilot super sports, yoko advan v105s, conti sport contact 5s. Any of those would be significantly quicker than the toyo.

Ah, thanks the penny has dropped now with a bit more reading.

So based on the club results from last year the 182, Fiesta ST and CTR are all running in SB class for standard production cars < 2000cc with no mods. The S2000's I mention above are all running in 1B so must be modified in some way (either that or it was setup that way to keep things competitive).

The RX-8 still intrigues me as they're cheap as chips, don't weigh much more than an EP3 CTR, have RWD and an LSD so a traction advantage and another 30 BHP but should still be SB eligible as standard. Not sure how it would fare against the S2000's in 1B with a few mods but might be interesting to find out for a 1/4 of the outlay..

T1R suggestion was purely based on a quick skim and knowing it's not an expensive tyre. I'd definitely look at the Michelin PS as you suggest.

Edited by SWoll on Sunday 16th April 23:52

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Salesy said:

I have run my RX on standard Verdstien ultrac sassanta tyres with no modifications and i was quicker than an S2000 on list 1b tyres.

I got my RX for £2600 with compression results of 6.5 across all faces. I have competed for 3 1/2 years in that, and i am about to start my next season. A local guy called Lewis ( LC Rotary in Orpington) looks after it and has said an engine rebuild will set me back around £2k but he will warranty it for 2years knowing i race the engine. Lewis is a true enthusiast and can also help release some more potential if you fancy going down the FI route.

Take a look at a set of results from the classes at the Debden Sprint. Straight out of the box the RX was fast with only the integra in the ball park.

Thanks Paul, that's great to see and definitely pushing me further in the direction of the RX-8. IMHO it would be the most fun car to use just for track days and the occasional weekend blast as it will need to be kept road legal for regulation purposes anyway.

Not sure if you've mentioned before but is your car still running completely standard? How do you find the standard seats and belts cope out on course?

Mark A S said:

Deffo get yourself along to several events as varied as you can and speak to the competitors in the classes your interested in. As has been said, most are a very friendly bunch, especially the hillclimbers, like one big happy albeit slightly nuts, family
Your then get a good feel for what class and type of car your prefer.

Cheers.

I will do. Shelsley Walsh Hill Climb is runnig it's season opener next weekend so hoping to get along to that with my lad and see how it all works. Curburough sprint track, which is 5 minutes from me, has regular events that are free for spectators to attend so will be getting down there also ASAP.

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e21Mark said:

I did a few events and really enjoyed sprints. I was never bothered about being competitive though, as I'm too fat and I drove a car that was fun but not quick. (much like myself) Sadly, I haven't been able to enter anything recently but hope to compete again this year....maybe.

Whatever car you choose, best of luck and enjoy yourself!

Thanks

I'm thinking the same way, although as with most things, if the bug bites..

The whole idea strikes me as more fun than just doing track days and a lot less expensive than getting involved in track racing. Be nice to re-engage with cars and driving again as for the last few years I've run company cars and spent all my time trudging up and down the UK motorway network.

AdamIndy said:

Shelsley is this Friday coming. I'll be there in my MK Indy if it's dry or my focus if it's wet. Car no.24.

I'm just there to dip my toe in so to speak. I have no idea what I'm doing but there for the same reasons as yourself. It should be a bit of fun if nothing else.

You're welcome to pop over for a chat, like I say, I won't have much of clue what's happening but if I can help then I will.

Balls..

All this reading of regulations and couldn't even get that date right. Based on that bombshell I might not be at SW then, which is a shame. Many thanks for the offer though, genuinely appreciated.

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Thurbs said:

Spend half your money on a standard car and the other half on lots of instruction. Pound for pound it will make you the fastest you can be.

Totally agree on instruction. Curburough are running a sprint instruction course in May so dependent on car purchase progress (and available places) will definitely look to get myself along for that.

As above, I'm not really concerned about being ultra competitive and have had some track instruction before so hopefully in a decent start point to progress from.

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carl_w said:

SWoll said:

As above, I'm not really concerned about being ultra competitive

You will be once you start getting some decent results

I know, I know. Already having visions of showing the FWD lot just how wrong their decision was.

One step at a time though..

AdamIndy said:

SWoll said:

Balls..

All this reading of regulations and couldn't even get that date right. Based on that bombshell I might not be at SW then, which is a shame. Many thanks for the offer though, genuinely appreciated.

Funny you should say that. I ballsed up the dates too. It wasn't until 2 days ago I was reminded it was on friday, not Sunday as I thought! Que me begging to get the day off work.

I'm already off work this week, therefore it would require me cancelling plans I have with the real boss..

As I'm currently succeeding in getting her onside with the whole concept probably best not to let her down and then bugger off for the day I'd have thought.

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Salesy said:

Hi SWoll, The seats are nice and comfortable and provide a good amount of support. My only gripe is that they are leather, which when wearing a race suit tend to let the bum slide a little. However because of the slight bucket design its not too much where you feel unsafe. I have had one off track excursion at Lynden hill where the car bounced a bit t and then went into a 70mph slide sideways. I think my arse gripped the seat......

As for modifications the RX is as it left the factory..

Im not quite sure what to do with the RX now i have a clio cup, Do i sell it? or do i keep it and carry on sprinting with it? My heart says i should keep it as it is an absolute weapon on track even in its standard form, but my head says whats the point in keeping a car and only using it a few times a year.

Edited by Salesy on Monday 17th April 12:50

Edited by Salesy on Monday 17th April 12:51

Hi Paul,

Have you not considered perhaps modifying it and moving up to a different class? I'm assuming the issue with selling is that they appear to be fetching so little nowadays as due to the engine worries, high oil & fuel consumption and emissions they are prohibitively expensive to run as a road car so generate little interest? For me this makes them perfect for track purposes, but again they don't seem an obvious choice for many.

Will have to see how well the seats fit once I get in one again. Like I said earlier in the thread I'm 6.4" and also wide across the shoulders so generally a big lad which can make comfortable seating a challenge at times. Amusingly my potential co-driver is the exact opposite, about 5.6" and 9-10 stone so a very adjustable driving position will definitely be an important priority.

Scott

Nigel_O said:

I'm also very local to Curborough and did a couple of seasons there a few years back. The final season was in a standard Honda CRX, which cost £400 to buy, £400 to weld and paint and about £600 in replacement suspension. It was ideally suited to a short twisty track - small, light, pretty punchy and very neat handling. I ended up bagging a first place in my first year and then someone offered me £1500 for the car and I let it go.

It was huge fun and pretty addictive, but each event cost between £60 and £100 and depending on the event, I was getting about five to seven minutes of track time, so while it was cheap, it wasn't very good value.

If I wanted some thrills on track now, I'd be spending £150 a time on a proper trackday, simply to get more time on track

And finally, as mentioned above, tuition will gain you more time than any amount of money spent on tyres. Curborough looks extremely simple to drive, but its fiendishly difficult to get everything right - several corners have changing radii and there are a couple of big stops if you do the long circuit. The new figure of eight configuration has only added to the difficulty

Hi Nigel,

The plan is to use the car for a combination of things so track days, sprints, hill climbs and summer weekend runs up north and across to Wales to find some good roads. Got to agree that sprinting doesn't look great value but then again no-one ever said motorsport was anything other than expensive I suppose.

The plan may well be just to source the car this year, do any work required and then a few track days and open days at Curburough to get the feel for it at the limit. I can then get some tuition in preparation for next years season and a better feel for what format/class suits me.

Edited by SWoll on Monday 17th April 13:56

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Salesy said:

A few action shots from last year.

Utterly unimportant I know, but I do love the RX in that colour. Still a good looking car after 15 years as well.