Why can’t we have rally cars like this anymore

[300bhp/ton]

Not aiming this as lamenting past times. But I struggle to understand why we can’t have new rally cars like this?

This is largely a production car kitted out for rally. I know there were many subtle changes under the skin. But despite this, it’s still a pretty ‘normal’ car. And bears much resemblance to the road going models you really could buy.


Why does this financial model not work today?

Surely these ultra custom bespoke cars that teams are forced to build and race these days must cost many times more. And come with none of the perks of actually helping to sell cars or change a brands image.

I wonder if we would be better served if the car makers, rather than the FIA were to come up with a rule set for rallying.

[300bhp/ton]

Not Group N. Group A. That’s Colin McRae’s winning car.

[300bhp/ton]

GravelBen said:

IIRC it was pressure from European manufacturers that made FIA move further away from production-based rules, because they didn't have any suitable competitive cars for homologation etc.

Apparently its cheaper to build a few specialised competition vehicles that look a bit like the production version than it is to engineer production versions to be a suitable base.

Yet isn’t one of the reasons cited for modern WRC and often the lack of manufactures is the cost of it. Yet throughout the Group A era there were always loads of cars. Logically something doesn’t add up.

[300bhp/ton]

chunder27 said:

Group A worked fine in my view. You had a lot more manufacturers than that, Audi, Renault, Mazda, Peugeot, Volkswagen, Vauxhall, yes they did not make 4wd cars, but nationally they were the backbone of rallying for 20 or 30 years.

It is always expensive to make 4wd rally cars and make 5000 of them. Not many could commit, but Group A did not just cater for 4wd turbo cars. And those years were just as exciting in some ways, I certainly enjoyed them.

The WRC years initially were great, but as soon as the FIUA allowed Peugeot to build car that was nothing like a 206 road car it lost its way.

This sums it up for me really. +1

[300bhp/ton]

DCLXIV said:

There never were that many Group A cars. Across the 10 years from 87-97, there was only really Lancia, Toyota, Subaru, Mitsubishi and Ford. No one else committed to building homologation specials.

As soon as WRC came along in 1997, it brought in a slew of new manufacturers, who couldn't justify building a special road model just to be competitive in rallying.

Edited by DCLXIV on Saturday 21st October 21:54

Group A was about longer than just that. It didn’t just happen after the Group B days. And it included Nissan, Mitsubishi, BMW, Citroen, Audi, Fiat, Lada and many others.

[300bhp/ton]

chunder27 said:

Not sure about others but WRC this year has been far more interesting

For me the main issue is I cannot relate to the cars at all and have no interest in the actual vehciles. The stages and driving are mostly fine. The cars are just boring and uninteresting.

[300bhp/ton]

bloomen said:

The only thing that Impreza shares with the road version is probably the shape and the door cards.

I suggest that you maybe have a much closer look at it. I’m not saying it isn’t significantly modified. But it’s clearly a production car that has been altered. Rather than being bespokely purpose built from the ground up.

Ie it’s proper production 4, yes 4 door bodyshell made from steel. Just stripped with a cage. The sort of thing you really could build yourself.

[300bhp/ton]

bloomen said:

They would get a bare bones shell, probably in pieces, from Japan and that's pretty much the last thing a Subaru production line will have to do with it. Every inch of the shell will be pored over, seam welded, multi point caged. The glass will be thinner.

Every single nut, bolt and washer will be custom made. Clutches will have been 10-20 grand back in the day, suspension tens of thousands per corner, transmissions nudging hundreds of thousands. Intakes will be carbon fibre.

Group A defines the dimensions and basic spec of certain parts and that's it. Nothing could be retrofitted to a group N car, let alone a road car. The entire thing is about as bespoke as anything can get even if it is outwardly recognisable.

Really. So You are claiming this



Is no more bespoke and bears the same amount of linkage to the production variant as the Impreza does in my op.


That really is a Bold claim to make!!!

[300bhp/ton]

DanielSan said:

See the above post. You’re really not comprehending the difference between Grp.A and Grp.N.

????

Why are you taking Group N??? I have not been and that was never the point of the thread. And for reference I understand the difference between them perfectly well thank you very much.

The point was really really simple.

At one point in history. A top level rally car was essentially a production car that had met the safety aspects. Lightened and then used beefed up versions of the standard components such as engine/gearbox.

It was not a purpose built machine from the ground up sharing exactly no parts or commonality with the production car it was meant to be prepresenting.

This was true of all the Grp A cars from the earlier SD1 and Pug 205’s thru to the late Evos before the switch to WRC spec. And it was equally true in the pre Group A days when something like a TR7, Escort or Ascona were the main vehicles.

[300bhp/ton]

bloomen said:

300bhp/ton said:

Really. So You are claiming this
Is no more bespoke and bears the same amount of linkage to the production variant as the Impreza does in my op.
That really is a Bold claim to make!!!

Silhouette and dimensions of certain parts aside, yes.

A group A clutch, gearbox, ECU, diffs, loom, braking, suspension and engine bears just as little resemblance to a road version as the car pictured. The only thing they'd have in common is physical dimensions some of the time.

Edited by bloomen on Monday 30th October 16:49

Again. You really ought to go and have a look in person at he car in my op. I think you are probably confusing WRC spec cars with Grp A.

For instance the McRae car in my op has a regular manual gearbox. Ok the ratios might not be the same as most road going production ones. And it might have some additional strengthening. But it is essentially the same sort of thing you could buy and drive yourself.

It is not a sequential box like you’d get in a WRC car.

This means the clutch is also very ordinary. Just likely more aggressive. But it’s still a regular clutch mechanism.

Same with the diffs. They are not computer controlled, they are just diffs. Probably TorSon based if memory serves.

[300bhp/ton]

bloomen said:

300bhp/ton said:

At one point in history. A top level rally car was essentially a production car that had met the safety aspects. Lightened and then used beefed up versions of the standard components such as engine/gearbox.

I would say that phase ended during the 1960s.

Well again. You really ought to get up close and personal to some rally cars. I’m a huge Tony Pond and TR7 V8 rally fan. And I know for a fact that the rally cars where all based off of a production model and not a completely bespoke build then made to look like a rally car.

So much so that it really isn’t that hard to build one today to the same or even better spec. Grp A Impreza’s like the one I my op were also of a similar ilk. While any WRC is not.

[300bhp/ton]

Now you see Ben. I find myself agreeing with everything you’ve said there.

I recently visited Pro Drive for a tour. Which is where the Impreza pic came from. There really were some awesome cars there. But if I’m brutally honest. This was my favourite one:



And for exactly the reasons of it being far more ‘real’ to the production models.

And I’m not saying today’s drivers are any less talented. But modern WRC cars are just too capable and in many ways too safe. There is no real risk. And managaing that risk was part of the expertise required for past rally drivers. To get something like this Legacy or even McRae’s Impreza to dance on a rally stage with a traditional manual gearbox. Required quite a different set of skills to the modern sequential box cars with active everything.

[300bhp/ton]

bloomen said:

The gearbox pattern doesn't matter. Even if it's H pattern it'll be a straight cut dog box made of unobtanium as would the diffs. The clutch would have to withstand left foot braking, clutchless gear changes and flat out starts.

This is world class competition with hundreds of millions of investment and prestige at stake. The parts will be exactingly made in laboratories by specialists such as Xtrac, not whipped off the shelf of the nearest dealer.

Yet they are all bolt on or bolt in parts. For the most part.

Ie you could pretty much wheel in any Impreza of the era and bolt those bits to it.

This simply isn’t the case with a WRC car.

[300bhp/ton]

bloomen said:

300bhp/ton said:

Yet they are all bolt on or bolt in parts. For the most part.

Ie you could pretty much wheel in any Impreza of the era and bolt those bits to it.

This simply isn’t the case with a WRC car.

How would you go around bolting in a fully active pneumatic competition transmission into your local farmer's runaround?

Seriously are you not READING the posts???

That’s is my entire point. The Grp A cars had normal manual gearboxes!!!!!! You are mixing up WRC and Grp A.

[300bhp/ton]

DanielSan said:

Just bolt those bits to it? Ok then go get a classic Impreza add the same suspension and 18 inch wheels then hammer it down a road. Just bolting the bits on as you claim would result in 18 inch wheels knocking the st out of the arches.

To get those wheels and still maintain a decent level of travel required a lot of work to reshape the arches all round. And that’s just one element of the car...

They make look identical but it’s like claiming a Mondeo Supertourer can be built by just bolting bits onto a normal Mondeo

You seem to be denying this basic truth:

otolith said:

For me, rallying ceased to be interesting when the cars moved away from evolved versions of something you could buy in the showroom.

Why?

[300bhp/ton]

bloomen said:

They did not.

Observe the line from here

http://www.impreza555.com/specs.htm

SUBARU IMPREZA 555 GROUP A TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS

TRANSMISSION
Prodrive 6 speed semi-auto pneumatic paddle-shift + regular H pattern
Front diff: Active
Centre diff: Active
Rear diff: Mechanical/locked
Clutch: AP carbon

That transmission would've cost between £100-200,000 alone.

The only mechanical difference between group A cars and early WRC cars would've been the shell where they had freer reign with suspension pickup points, engine and gearbox mounts and aero.

Mechanically it was already heading towards a free for all. WRC cars had less power than early GP A cars. The ST 185 Toyotas and Integrale Evos were making way over 400 bhp.

The 97 WRC Subaru had an H pattern box too. That doesn't mean it was ripped out of a road car.

Selling old rally cars used to be my business and I know what goes into them.

Earlier Group A stuff certainly was simpler, especially the 80s, but by the Impreza phase it was already a techno arms race.

WRC was introduced as a cost saving measure. Most manufacturers lost tens of millions on the road cars and few had the inclination to build 5000 specials to go compete.

My mistake. Had forgotten the late Grp A cars had got these. Was thinking of the Pug 206 which was a WRC spec car.

However in my defence the car I posted about did not have this type of gearbox. It has a normal manual H box. Which was really rather my point.