Michael Schumacher & traction control...

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I've been trying to work out how many championships Schuey has won with traction control and how many he has won without TC; does anyone know?

I know his first championship was won with traction control despite it being banned; a few teams had 'hidden' it and his car was one of them but I'm hazy; anyone have the offical stat on this?

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I thought as much...

Even the first championship he won, where Schueys use of TC was 'unofficial'; it seemed that everyone knew Benetton had TC - locked away under some three up two down secret procedure to engage it: that's as I understand it anyway.

BTW, this is not a MS bashing thread as I'd like to see Mercedes do well; I was just chatting earlier with a friend about this and wanted to clarify as I said that Schuey loves traction control and I wanted a stat on championships won with TC.

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@ Derek. Well said and a good point regarding attention being diverted as I'd long forgotten just how bad it was. The fuel filter was another issue, you're right.

I still think that with the right car under him, MS might be fighting with the front-runners but his legacy is certainly questionable. In any case, while I don't view Schuey as the driving god some seem to; I'd like to see Brawn get Mercedes up to speed.

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FourWheelDrift said:

During practice for the 1994 Pacific GP at the Aida circuit Alesi's stand-in Nicola Larini leaked to members of the Italian media about using traction control. And according to F1 journo Joe Saward after Senna was taken out by Hakkinen early on in the race he stayed track-side to listen to the cars, on returning to the Williams pits his opinion was the Benetton's were illegal.

Obviously since Flavio Briatore was the man in charge in 1994 they didn't do anything wrong.

It seems Senna was right too.

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Conian said:

I'm sure that many people draw the line between 'innovation lateral thinking' and 'cheating' based on who they support and/or dislike for various other reasons, I draw your attention to the following Blackadder quote:

Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.

Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!

Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--

Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!

I don't agree. As has been said, theres clever interpretation of the rules, even if its against the spirit of that rule - then theres balls out flouncing of the rules. There's a definite line between the two.

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entropy said:

LDN said:

I've been trying to work out how many championships Schuey has won with traction control and how many he has won without TC; does anyone know?

I know his first championship was won with traction control despite it being banned; a few teams had 'hidden' it and his car was one of them but I'm hazy; anyone have the offical stat on this?

Why should that matter?

He'd shown his exceptional talent by outdriving the 1992 Benetton that still had sequential shift and no fancy gizmos like TC.

IMHO a top driver is a top driver full stop. They will get the most of the car regardless.

Rules are made to be broken. The designers are no different to the drivers, they are on the limits of the rules and Benetton got away with it in 1994 because of Mad Max crazy witch hunt because Briatore was disrespectful of Max.

Sorry but not sure I follow all of that... however, I get the jist. I don't doubt MS's ability but I was trying to establish how many drivers championships MS had won without traction control; the answer is seemingly 'none'. Like I've said before, I want to see Mercedes do well so I'm not here to bash - it was just a point that I was discussing with a friend.

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GTP rpm said:

LDN said:

Conian said:

I'm sure that many people draw the line between 'innovation lateral thinking' and 'cheating' based on who they support and/or dislike for various other reasons, I draw your attention to the following Blackadder quote:

Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.

Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!

Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--

Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!

I don't agree. As has been said, theres clever interpretation of the rules, even if its against the spirit of that rule - then theres balls out flouncing of the rules. There's a definite line between the two.

I wouldn't like to put my hand up to be the person who determins this.

Isn't this a bit like saying "it's OK to do 33mph in a 30zone...but 37mph is unacceptable" ?

I don't think it's like that at all. But we'll agree to disagree

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entropy said:

LDN said:

Sorry but not sure I follow all of that... however, I get the jist. I don't doubt MS's ability but I was trying to establish how many drivers championships MS had won without traction control; the answer is seemingly 'none'. Like I've said before, I want to see Mercedes do well so I'm not here to bash - it was just a point that I was discussing with a friend.

Then what is your point?

Why should TC demean his 'worth'? It's all very having it but you need the whole car package as well as top drivers.

Ferrari had TC in 1994 and they weren't exactly fighting for the WDC.

My point was merely that Schuey favours TC and drivers like Senna didn't. I was having a chat with a friend who believes Schuey to be the best ever and I thought that the TC issue was just one example to back my case but couldn't establish, off the top of my head whether I was, indeed, right. The intention of this thread was that innocent. MS is a great driver and I'd like to see him do well at Mercedes; I hope he stays next season too. Fact is, some of his championships are questionable; that is all.

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heebeegeetee said:

LDN said:

My point was merely that Schuey favours TC and drivers like Senna didn't.

I thought senna would take anything that would help him win?

... maybe so, but he said he didn't like TC as it got in the way of the driver/car relationship. Don't shoot the messenger

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RobM77 said:

10 Pence Short said:

entropy said:

2006 Chinese GP - only Bridgestone runner to qualify in the top 10 and went on to win the race.

Those would be the Bridgestone tyres developed almost solely for the Ferrari car?

Massa was tenth by the way (a couple of tenths behind MS's qualifying time), but demoted 10 places due to an engine change.

I've said this countless times, but it's extremely hard to make a judgement on people's driving in Formula One; there are just too many variables - even between team-mates strategy, tyres and setup all make a huge difference, and then when you compare different teams as well it all just gets a bit silly.

I think this is right. Comparing drivers is hard enough but when you cross era's it becomes even more difficult. The level of competition at any one given time, technological advancements, preferential treatment, etc etc etc. I like Schuey, I really do - but it grates when people hold him up as the greatest ever based on 7 WDC's like that is all that matters; not taking into account any of the above.

My only intention was to clarify whether all MS's championships were won with TC; not to, in some way, say that he is crap but just that he's always had TC underneath him. Of course there's a million and one other things that make a difference.

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heebeegeetee said:

So personally, i really couldn't care if he had tc or not. Didn't everybody have it?

That's the point... the answer to your question is 'no'.

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markcoznottz said:

... and his absolute refusal to have an equal team-mate.

+1