Sauber C30 / Heritage HF1-018. Warning: F1 Car Content :)
Discussion
As many of you know I am lucky enough to work with a group of like minded individuals at an engineering company who are most well known for building modern era F1 cars for various uses.
I think we've just built the best thing ever!
Late last year Heritage F1 (if you've not heard of them then Google because they're awesome, awesome F1 people) came to us with a project in mind to build one of their Sauber chassis into a working car, with the twist that it had to be easy to run (no 20 person teams) and able to do serious KMs in between rebuilds with great reliability for tyre testing, TV work and general circuit use but that it also had to still be an F1 car with regards aero performance, pace and all round race car ability. In short a proper have your cake and eat it scenario with the car needing to show speed similar to a late V8/early V6 cars race pace but with the ability to do 5000KMs+ between major rebuilds.
As we love this sort of challenge, and the opportunity to build a no regulations applicable F1 car was hugely tempting we started the build in early January this year after several weeks of design and engineering work and performed the first shakedown this weekend just gone at Zolder.
One of the most difficult things on this project was delivering a powertrain option that had the ability to make upto 600bhp if required and a minimum of 500bhp in circuit use spec but was light enough and compact enough to package into a 2011 F1 car without compromising any of the aero surfaces AND had the ability to run several thousand KMs between service. After a lot of consideration we decided the best all round option was a variant of the Audi/VAG Formula car powertrain originaly used in FPA and developed further for F2, with better rad ducts and the option of higher intercooler performance we were able to make more power than the last evolution of F2 with only minor revisions to the engine itself and the fact that this powertrain delivered significantly more torque than an NA option coupled with the very efficient aero of the C30 chassis meant corner exit speeds and rates of acceleration were comparable to the original car in a surprising amount of areas.
We had a huge amount of design work to do on this program as a large amount of components were missing from the original car. We designed (and mostly built) in house a new pedal box, brake system, front suspension, steering column, pedal sensors, wiring looms, wing mounts, engine mountings, fuel system, electrical system, charge cooling, water system, pneumatic system, various chassis closing panels and structural elements etc. etc. etc. the list was massive, over 300 new components! However the upshot of all this careful design work was that the car complete was 0.45mm longer than the original, 0.22mm wider, weighed exactly the same 640KG with driver and had a front/rear weight split within 1% of the original car..... and every aero surface remained as per the original late season spec of the original car, in fact only two sections of bodywork are modified from original in two very small areas, these are not aero generating and you'd be hard pushed to spot them
Back to Zolder, the car ran 20 laps without a single issue. We have plenty of data to make some changes with and we'll develop the setup of the car further from this point to increase mid-speed stability and dial out some low speed understeer but for it to be this right out the box is a massive achievement and a testament to all the people who have worked so hard on creating it. Here's the video of the first few laps, which is worth far more than my bumbling explantions of it being quite fast:
https://youtu.be/XC_v4ca2WZw
It is an absolute spaceship. The combination of late era F1 aero and turbo power having maintained the aero and balance as per has resulted in something that is quick capable of giving late 90's and early to mid 2000 original F1 cars a clean pair of heels and the absolutely brilliant thing is that it is super easy to run - it doesn't need preheating, hyds flush packs, fueling rigs or offboard starters. A two person team can run it at competitive speeds for BOSS and European Hillclimb.
Few build pics:
First mock up ride height check.
Couple of component pics showing the new brake bias setup to replicate Saubers original bulkhead mounted bias bar and the new steel steering column to replace the original carbon column which would have needed replacement on a regular basis:
The office:
First complete shot on old wheels and old livery:
Ready to go out at the first test:
Oh and we retained the ability to run KERS if required, it still has DRS and we have the option to run current Pirelli if we want to.
Needless to say the guys at Heritage F1 are really pleased with it, as are we. Definitely a challenging project but a very rewarding one and to see the pace in the car out the box is a wonderful thing. Needless to say we are really keen to build a couple more on modern era chassis - maybe a Marussia and a Force India...... they would definitely make someone the ultimate track day car or a mega hill climb/BOSS race car, thinking about it you would struggle to privately own anything quicker as the current batch of hyper cars wouldn't see where it went
As always any questions ask away
I think we've just built the best thing ever!
Late last year Heritage F1 (if you've not heard of them then Google because they're awesome, awesome F1 people) came to us with a project in mind to build one of their Sauber chassis into a working car, with the twist that it had to be easy to run (no 20 person teams) and able to do serious KMs in between rebuilds with great reliability for tyre testing, TV work and general circuit use but that it also had to still be an F1 car with regards aero performance, pace and all round race car ability. In short a proper have your cake and eat it scenario with the car needing to show speed similar to a late V8/early V6 cars race pace but with the ability to do 5000KMs+ between major rebuilds.
As we love this sort of challenge, and the opportunity to build a no regulations applicable F1 car was hugely tempting we started the build in early January this year after several weeks of design and engineering work and performed the first shakedown this weekend just gone at Zolder.
One of the most difficult things on this project was delivering a powertrain option that had the ability to make upto 600bhp if required and a minimum of 500bhp in circuit use spec but was light enough and compact enough to package into a 2011 F1 car without compromising any of the aero surfaces AND had the ability to run several thousand KMs between service. After a lot of consideration we decided the best all round option was a variant of the Audi/VAG Formula car powertrain originaly used in FPA and developed further for F2, with better rad ducts and the option of higher intercooler performance we were able to make more power than the last evolution of F2 with only minor revisions to the engine itself and the fact that this powertrain delivered significantly more torque than an NA option coupled with the very efficient aero of the C30 chassis meant corner exit speeds and rates of acceleration were comparable to the original car in a surprising amount of areas.
We had a huge amount of design work to do on this program as a large amount of components were missing from the original car. We designed (and mostly built) in house a new pedal box, brake system, front suspension, steering column, pedal sensors, wiring looms, wing mounts, engine mountings, fuel system, electrical system, charge cooling, water system, pneumatic system, various chassis closing panels and structural elements etc. etc. etc. the list was massive, over 300 new components! However the upshot of all this careful design work was that the car complete was 0.45mm longer than the original, 0.22mm wider, weighed exactly the same 640KG with driver and had a front/rear weight split within 1% of the original car..... and every aero surface remained as per the original late season spec of the original car, in fact only two sections of bodywork are modified from original in two very small areas, these are not aero generating and you'd be hard pushed to spot them
Back to Zolder, the car ran 20 laps without a single issue. We have plenty of data to make some changes with and we'll develop the setup of the car further from this point to increase mid-speed stability and dial out some low speed understeer but for it to be this right out the box is a massive achievement and a testament to all the people who have worked so hard on creating it. Here's the video of the first few laps, which is worth far more than my bumbling explantions of it being quite fast:
https://youtu.be/XC_v4ca2WZw
It is an absolute spaceship. The combination of late era F1 aero and turbo power having maintained the aero and balance as per has resulted in something that is quick capable of giving late 90's and early to mid 2000 original F1 cars a clean pair of heels and the absolutely brilliant thing is that it is super easy to run - it doesn't need preheating, hyds flush packs, fueling rigs or offboard starters. A two person team can run it at competitive speeds for BOSS and European Hillclimb.
Few build pics:
First mock up ride height check.
Couple of component pics showing the new brake bias setup to replicate Saubers original bulkhead mounted bias bar and the new steel steering column to replace the original carbon column which would have needed replacement on a regular basis:
The office:
First complete shot on old wheels and old livery:
Ready to go out at the first test:
Oh and we retained the ability to run KERS if required, it still has DRS and we have the option to run current Pirelli if we want to.
Needless to say the guys at Heritage F1 are really pleased with it, as are we. Definitely a challenging project but a very rewarding one and to see the pace in the car out the box is a wonderful thing. Needless to say we are really keen to build a couple more on modern era chassis - maybe a Marussia and a Force India...... they would definitely make someone the ultimate track day car or a mega hill climb/BOSS race car, thinking about it you would struggle to privately own anything quicker as the current batch of hyper cars wouldn't see where it went
As always any questions ask away
Dedders said:
There’s not a lot to say other than that’s incredible and an amazing engineering achievement to get performance like that with 5k between rebuilds, I’d love to see this running in person
It will be out at a lot of events this year so plenty of chance to see it. It went from Zolder this weekend straight to Germany to film a TV advert with no more reprep than a wipe over, dip the oil and torque the wheels - it really is an incredible bit of kit and proof that you can have an F1 car that performs like an F1 car without the costs and maintenance if you are prepared to sacrifice some originality. We're over the moon with it.
F1GTRUeno said:
It's a shame it's not in original livery (albeit, the original isn't exactly a classic) but it's great that the chassis is out there being used as a track car. Looking forward to updates because your threads are always great PPBB!
It is actually in original livery under the current wrap 
It's been built to race with all the things required of it to race competitively - it's just that it is also capable of doing the track car thing too. F1GTRUeno said:
As an aside, how deep does your work go with HF1? I peruse their site regularly in case anything new pops up (not to buy, just to keep track of the cars) but I'd be dying to know the chassis number of the 198 they've got that runs the simulator if perhaps you knew? They have the numbers up for M198/01 and 195/04 and the likes, just not this one.
PM me TwoStrokeNut said:
Wow, congrats. What an amazing project!
What sort of lap times was it doing at Zolder? It looks like late 1:30s from the video? Obviously just a shake down a lots more to come.
Wonderful!
Simulation says 1:13.9 at max attack... which would be a lap record. We weren't timing this weekend as it was just a demo event that we were using for shakedown and there were various other much slower cars on the circuit with us. Also it was finished the day before it left for Belgium and this was very much first run out - also Zolder with no run off is not where you want to be pushing in someone elses car at the best of times What sort of lap times was it doing at Zolder? It looks like late 1:30s from the video? Obviously just a shake down a lots more to come.
Wonderful!
To give some comparison this was running low boost (so only 400bhp) with no PTP or DRS, minimum shift aggresion and medium compound Avons. There is a huge amount more to come from it!
5harp3y said:
What are the specs on the engine?
is the the 1.8 20v that is used in formula palmer?
From my original post "Audi/VAG Formula car powertrain originaly used in FPA and developed further for F2" - so yes..... but it's a development of the F2 powertrain for use in this application. is the the 1.8 20v that is used in formula palmer?
It has slightly more capacity than the original 20V, rods, crank, pistons, head casting, valves, cams etc. etc. are specific to this application. It's dry sumped and runs with significant crank case depression, turbo is a modified GT35R on an inconel equal length manifold with Tial water cooled wastegate. It revs to 9000RPM, runs up to 2.8bar boost and makes over 500bhp at this. 600bhp available if we wish to run more expensive fuel, different cams and a larger turbo.
humpbackmaniac said:
Ive got a spanking new built Triple Rotor motor if you can use it? I had it built for this project initially but PPB's plan was better. Im now looking for a Mk2 Escort Shell to install it in over the winter.
Can we please build it with the Sadev in the back carrying the rear suspension and an engine speed prop like the Aston GT2/GTE? DanielSan said:
There’s a fair few triple rotor RX7’s around the world used on the road doing more than 3000 miles between rebuilds... Rotary engines aren’t as unreliable as people think.
The difficulty is running them as a stressed member. The castings are thin and rely on long bolts to clamp them together, you simply can't hang the whole back of the car off them. For an F1 or similar this becomes a major issue, especially on a modern chassis as they are so narrow and tightly packaged there isn't room to run big engine frames and rear bulkhead plates to destress the engine without massively compromising the aero surfaces and bodywork. If you look at the installation in the 787B here:
You can see just how much structure is around the engine to make sure none of the loads the gearbox sees from the rear suspension are transmitted into the engine itself. With the Audi Formula powertrain we are using you can see how much less structure there is, the block runs stressed and there are just two small side frames which pickup the top of the bell housing which are there mainly due to the bell housing width vs the distance between the block side fasteners.
It's not always about how physically compact something is, it really does come down to how much load you can put through it with these and with a lateral G capability of over 4.5G there is a lot of energy going through noisey bit in the middle of this Sauber
DRCAGE said:
Looking good! Particularly that rear wing mount!
And the way the rear wing mount handled the mid air excursion, wow!
Great rear wing mount you got there
It is an epic rear wing mount, definitely the best rear wing mount ever. And the way the rear wing mount handled the mid air excursion, wow!
Great rear wing mount you got there
I've never seen a better rear wing mount!
- injoke
thirstyC55 said:
Excuse the hopefully very light thread jack, as this is pretty incredible here, but PPBB, I have been hoping to get in touch with you but unfortunately can't PM. You, or someone with your same username, though I think it was you posted a solution to a MB C55 consuming 1L oil / 750 miles. I'm having the exact same problem. Great power, no CELs, passed one of the strictest emissions tests in the world, rarely but sometimes smoking on startup, but extreme consumption.
Your solution - "Replaceing this breather hose along with cleaning and flushing the two smaller breathers and resealing the leaking throttle/breather seal resulted in a crank case pressure reading at idle of -4mbar and on blip a reading of similar - zero."
Having just done 60 miles in it according to the dash it has used no oil and certainly feels a bit sharper.
Will update if this has solved it once a few more miles are on the clock!
I can see why you didn't post an update but can you say if this solution proved true long term?
Thanks so much.
Yes it worked. Essentially the issue is the crank case breathers get blocked, leading to the crank case becoming pressurised which in turn reduces the efficiency of the oil control rings leading to high oil consumption. Your solution - "Replaceing this breather hose along with cleaning and flushing the two smaller breathers and resealing the leaking throttle/breather seal resulted in a crank case pressure reading at idle of -4mbar and on blip a reading of similar - zero."
Having just done 60 miles in it according to the dash it has used no oil and certainly feels a bit sharper.
Will update if this has solved it once a few more miles are on the clock!
I can see why you didn't post an update
but can you say if this solution proved true long term? Thanks so much.
Leak down test it first as there is also a similar issue due to worn rings but if the leak down shows them all similar and healthy it's very likely to be this.
chuntington101 said:
Any pics of the intercooler? Also is that an off the shelf GT35 or one of he R units?
Also what fuel are you currently running it on / would you need to get to the 600bhp? Guessing the motor is high comp. to minimise lag hence the need for good fuel for "only" 600bhp...
No but it's a relatively standard dual pass design with a very good quality bar and plate type turbulator core. There is a lot more we could do on end tank design to properly optimise it and I am toying with the idea of a single pass unit with nice sculpted end tanks at the moment. This is very much V1.1 right now on charge cooling as it was a case of make an intercooler fit where an ultra thin F1 water rad used to live and work from there - it's actually very good in terms of charge temp control but then it's sat at the end of a rad duct that probably cost 2 million quid and a team of 20 to develop Also what fuel are you currently running it on / would you need to get to the 600bhp? Guessing the motor is high comp. to minimise lag hence the need for good fuel for "only" 600bhp...
Turbo is a GT35R but an Owens M-Spec GT35R with all the trick billet compressor wheel bits and anti surge shrouds etc.
We're using Panta Supermax at the moment as it's very knock resistance and very oxygenated.
Yes for the past few weeks I've been working out how to convert an F1 car to hand controls without any input from the guy who will drive it as this was planned as a surprise. I love a challenge
Great day, car ran well, Billy did an amazing job with genuine pace and the Sky F1 Austria coverage this weekend will include the story of Billys first F1 drive. As a business it's a great pleasure that TDF can help guys like Heritage F1 do this sort of thing, we're all very proud of what Billy and the teams of people involved achieved today. Hopefully it will be the first run of many for him in this car.
Great day, car ran well, Billy did an amazing job with genuine pace and the Sky F1 Austria coverage this weekend will include the story of Billys first F1 drive. As a business it's a great pleasure that TDF can help guys like Heritage F1 do this sort of thing, we're all very proud of what Billy and the teams of people involved achieved today. Hopefully it will be the first run of many for him in this car.
Edited by poppopbangbang on Tuesday 26th June 21:01
Smitters said:
Great video. Must be bloody hard doing it all by hand. I love how after the outlap he just pins it on the banked corner.
Looks as though it was rev limited in 5th - was that a Rockingham/on the day/hand-controls specific thing? I thought from my fat-fingered counting on the vid from the opening post it was a six-speeder at least and capable of 150+ easily.
This was essentially a test and we are still validating the fail safes etc. on the hand controls. As it was a surprise for Billy we obviously couldn't do any testing before hand so things like seat position, brake pedal position etc. which for him are significantly different were best guess and as such not perfect. The point of the day was to see if he could fit in it comfortably and drive it, to rock up and find the limiters on your first lap is bloody impressive for anyone - he genuinely blew us away with his ability out the box. Looks as though it was rev limited in 5th - was that a Rockingham/on the day/hand-controls specific thing? I thought from my fat-fingered counting on the vid from the opening post it was a six-speeder at least and capable of 150+ easily.
andburg said:
Just seen this on the skyf1 show.
Great work, are you able to show us what had to be done to the car to allow billy to drive?
Yes. The throttle was moved to the steering wheel via re purposing one of the original FBW clutch paddles to become a throttle. We intercepted the CAN from the wheel for CP1 and fed this to a Race Logic CAN to Analogue Module which in turn created the two 0.5V-4.5V signals we needed to pass to the ECU for engine torque request. We added some fail safe in terms of error detection for stuck paddle, constant zero, missing earth, missing power supply etc. and also some additional for CAN and module depower etc. so that the engine ECU would create a FBW fail safe state should any of these go out of acceptable ranges. Finally we had some brake pressure and clutch position vs throttle position validation in place so if the brake pressure was above a certain amount or the clutch was open beyond a certain amount the ECU would create an appropriate engine torque reduction. Great work, are you able to show us what had to be done to the car to allow billy to drive?
We made a few paddle options for Bill:
So he was able to pick on the day what the best option for him was.
With regards brakes we made a pedal box mounting plate which picked up on the original multiple position option box mounting holes in the tub and moved the original pedal box forward. We designed and made a new brake pedal and pedal pad to suit Bills unique requirements and provide some adjust-ability on the day for him. This used large diameter hex bar push rods to connect to the original bulk head mounted master cylinders.
Finally we reworked the FBW clutch engagement points and paddle linearisation to provide more resolution around the bite for easier pull away at the expense of outright launch aggression and recalibrated the ECU to create more base torque and idle speed so the car could pull away at zero throttle paddle position or there abouts.
We were all very pleased he was able to drive it on the day as well as he could. This kind of driver interface is really a very unique individual to individual thing so being able to get this close out the box was a mega nod to our abilities really
Zadkiel said:
Out of interest why did you not go down the path of some kind of Judd engine or similar? Just too expensive to purchase and run?
The packaging of the post 2010 cars is so tight you can't get one in without massively compromising the aero and bodywork. The earlier V10 cars take a JUDD well and the V8 makes a good option for making GP2s quicker though.Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff