Citroen C4 VTS 180 in bargain-basement blind bidding frenzy!
Discussion
It's true. I've bought another Citroen, and this time it ISN'T a BX!
For the past two years (with a bit of change), my daily driver has been a Peugeot 407SW HDI, thus:
Now, I can't really knock the Peugeot 407SW HDI much, as truth be told, it's been a very good car. Reliable, capable of 50mpg or more, unassuming and has done the job of carting myself to work and my kids to school every morning. It's been grand.
Time came to change the Peugeot, for a number of reasons. One of the reasons was that I wanted a smaller car, because as good as the bangernomics Pug was, it was the size of a sperm whale. When you live with no off-road parking in cul-de-sac inhabited mostly by people who can't park to save their lives, such a vessel becomes problematic.
A number of cars were added to a shortlist for consideration. I was after something a bit more interesting than the Pug (not difficult), a bit smaller than the Pug (again, a simple request) and something worth no more than the Pug in monetary terms (ah, the stumbling block!)
I had my list down to a few:
Of course, I didn't go to look at it, because I spotted a much less ideal option on eBay. A 3 door VTS 180 (which stands for 180bhp, despite the fact they had 177.) I was familar with these, because S-ten-BHP owned one a while back (here, in fact: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... ) and though at the time I felt it poor as a hot hatch, today as a potential daily-runaround that could both interesting and cheap, it started to make sense:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2006-56-CITROEN-C4-COUP...
As with the most sensible and reasoned car buying choices, it was a trade clearance-sale. All risks, no backup. Riddled with bodily issues, and offered for sale by a dealer with less than glowing feedback. It sat at £560 for days on end, and I waited until Monday evening to snare my prey. Being a believer in 'snipe' bidding (not bidding until the very last second, where you go in all guns blazing) I lost my nerve at 25secs remaining, where it was at £620. I pumped in a colossal number, and saw it sitting at £640 with 5 secs remaining. I rubbed my hands with glee, only to see it briefly flash at £820 and then £840 as others frantically tried to beat me off (not in a good way) at the death. Resigned to my fate at £840, I was still fairly relaxed as I thought it represented pretty good value still, especially as a Focus ST or Civic Type-R of a similar vintage would be 3-5 times more money, despite not being 3-5 times the car.
You can imagine my disappointment that, upon a refresh, I discovered the final price was £920.
At the end of the day, I was still willing to pay that. If someone had asked me earlier in the year "Do you want a C4 VTS for £920, I'd have said....well, no probably. But I should have said yes, because it's still cheaper than most of the others I've seen around, and it's a LOT of car for the money! Besides, I clearly really wanted it, having lost my nerve and gone in at 25secs, which gave everyone else a chance to react. Should have waited til 12secs, but wanted a chance to refresh in the event of a page failing to open, or something.
Anyway, Tuesday was a no-go for collection because, despite the fact the car was in nearby Russian (alledgedly) bio-chemical capital Salisbury, my kids had school sports day, and I had to spend the morning and early afternoon in 30c heat watching everyone else's kids run around (mine competed for a total of around 3 minutes, though they did well!)
Wednesday was another matter. A train ticket was duly purchased (for the first time on the mainline in around 15 years - things have changed a bit, eh?!) from Fareham to Salisbury, and because I'm a sadsack, I chose a route that would require two changes so that I could travel along the lines I used to live near when I was younger, as I'd never actually been down them. First two trains had A/C....third one was broken
All trains were pretty much on time, and the journey was totally painless (except for the GWR line's lack of air-con, combined with funky-smelling lady in seat ahead).
Salisbury was achieved:
(that's my train just pulling out, sans air-con)
A brief walk to the dealership later, and I was confronted with a very dusty and VERY hot Citroen C4 VTS 180:
Upon being asked whether I wanted to look at the car first, I responded that 'Yes, I would like to look at it first'. I enjoyed the fact that this seemed to put the salesman out somewhat, as the showroom was air-conditioned.
I was led to the C4, and handed a single key with a plastic body of questionable integrity. I was already aware that the only door lock on the car (on the passenger door, obviously) didn't work, so went straight for the knackered key (which the advert stated did function.)
Nothing.
Returned to the showroom and made way to salesman's desk. Upon being asked if it was OK, I suggested that the bit I could see was fine, but sadly I couldn't actually get in. Clearly believing me to be some kind of amateur in the realm of remote key fob operation, he went to try for himself, and sure enough was greeted with the same issue. One hot car park, one very hot C4, and one increasingly pissed-off me, though doing my best to keep my s
t together.
A Citroen salesman was collared (obviously a natural talent in the world of remote vehicle electronics) who played with the key until the car suddenly unlocked. He suggested the contact for the battery was dicky, so we taped the key up and left the car unlocked at that point. The car started up, behaved and did everything you'd want, aside from having WORKING AIR-CONDIDDLYDITIONING (OK, possibly hoping for a bit too much there). Funds were exchanged, and I made my way to a petrol station to increase the number of miles remaining on the fuel-trip computer (currently displaying zero).
I also bought a huge baguette, a chocolate bar and a drink. I set about the journey home and looked for a nice place to sit and eat:
It didn't take long to realise this was not a good place to sit and eat:
A short time later, I found a shady spot!
The drive home was uneventful, and the car even managed to average 38mpg without me even considering fuel economy. The ride was also smoother than I remembered. Upon my return to Fareham, I discovered that the 'battery issue' with the keyfob was, in fact, a broken micro-switch on the circuit board. Even better, it had already been superglued as a quick fix. I was now faced with a car that I couldn't lock or unlock. I decided to try and revive the passenger doorlock, which I hoped was seized up due to lack of use:
After 30mins of faffing around, I managed to free off the lock with my remaining key blade! I was now able to lock and unlock the car, at least!
One thing I'd noticed the entirety of the journey home was the amount of rattles and knocks coming from the rear end. Yes, it's French and all that, but so was the 407, and that didn't really rattle at all, despite its 215k miles and past as a taxi in Manchester! This was extreme, so I went hunting before i went home.
I found the spare wheel not fastened down, and a loose jack and mounting foam loose in the back, along with a lot of crud:
And having located the tow-eye (in the front door pocket; a sign of complete confidence in the car....!) I fastened everything down:
While refitting the boot carpet, I noticed another thoughtful design touch, which it was already clear the C4 was overflowing with:
What initially appeared to be a loose piece of trim, turned out to be a retractable boot tidy! I then went round all the tyres, and found one had 10PSI in it. Having re-inflated all of them to the correct pressure, the ride was now stiffer and the boot rattled were than ever. Hmmm...not the spare tyre & jack then!
I finished the day removing the dust and muck from the car in a manner befitting a £920 wreck:
Not too bad!
Issues notable at close of play, Wednesday 27th June:
For the past two years (with a bit of change), my daily driver has been a Peugeot 407SW HDI, thus:
Now, I can't really knock the Peugeot 407SW HDI much, as truth be told, it's been a very good car. Reliable, capable of 50mpg or more, unassuming and has done the job of carting myself to work and my kids to school every morning. It's been grand.
Time came to change the Peugeot, for a number of reasons. One of the reasons was that I wanted a smaller car, because as good as the bangernomics Pug was, it was the size of a sperm whale. When you live with no off-road parking in cul-de-sac inhabited mostly by people who can't park to save their lives, such a vessel becomes problematic.
A number of cars were added to a shortlist for consideration. I was after something a bit more interesting than the Pug (not difficult), a bit smaller than the Pug (again, a simple request) and something worth no more than the Pug in monetary terms (ah, the stumbling block!)
I had my list down to a few:
- Fiat Panda 100HP - always wanted one, but always think I'll chicken out of buying one. Budget meant it'd be a complete wreck, and I was worried my kids would get picked on at school, especially if it was red. I'd have to dress as Postman Pat to make it look like I was in on the joke....
- Audi A2 - always admired them, though never desired one. I like advanced cars, and the A2 was years ahead of its time. Again, not sure I'd have the guts to actually drive one, but the kids vetoed it before I got that far anyway!
- Honda Civic (2006 on) - another long term want, particularly in Type-R trim. Sadly, budget meant average 1.8 5dr - though a nice car - was going to be a total hound. Type-R totally out of reach, and from what I've heard they look better than they drive anyway!
- Citroen C4 - bit of a homecoming, what with the plethora of BXs. The C4 is almost a modern BX; a quirky looking car with more humdrum mechanicals than you'd think. 5dr cars were in budget, though not exactly 'exciting'.
Of course, I didn't go to look at it, because I spotted a much less ideal option on eBay. A 3 door VTS 180 (which stands for 180bhp, despite the fact they had 177.) I was familar with these, because S-ten-BHP owned one a while back (here, in fact: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... ) and though at the time I felt it poor as a hot hatch, today as a potential daily-runaround that could both interesting and cheap, it started to make sense:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2006-56-CITROEN-C4-COUP...
As with the most sensible and reasoned car buying choices, it was a trade clearance-sale. All risks, no backup. Riddled with bodily issues, and offered for sale by a dealer with less than glowing feedback. It sat at £560 for days on end, and I waited until Monday evening to snare my prey. Being a believer in 'snipe' bidding (not bidding until the very last second, where you go in all guns blazing) I lost my nerve at 25secs remaining, where it was at £620. I pumped in a colossal number, and saw it sitting at £640 with 5 secs remaining. I rubbed my hands with glee, only to see it briefly flash at £820 and then £840 as others frantically tried to beat me off (not in a good way) at the death. Resigned to my fate at £840, I was still fairly relaxed as I thought it represented pretty good value still, especially as a Focus ST or Civic Type-R of a similar vintage would be 3-5 times more money, despite not being 3-5 times the car.
You can imagine my disappointment that, upon a refresh, I discovered the final price was £920.
At the end of the day, I was still willing to pay that. If someone had asked me earlier in the year "Do you want a C4 VTS for £920, I'd have said....well, no probably. But I should have said yes, because it's still cheaper than most of the others I've seen around, and it's a LOT of car for the money! Besides, I clearly really wanted it, having lost my nerve and gone in at 25secs, which gave everyone else a chance to react. Should have waited til 12secs, but wanted a chance to refresh in the event of a page failing to open, or something.
Anyway, Tuesday was a no-go for collection because, despite the fact the car was in nearby Russian (alledgedly) bio-chemical capital Salisbury, my kids had school sports day, and I had to spend the morning and early afternoon in 30c heat watching everyone else's kids run around (mine competed for a total of around 3 minutes, though they did well!)
Wednesday was another matter. A train ticket was duly purchased (for the first time on the mainline in around 15 years - things have changed a bit, eh?!) from Fareham to Salisbury, and because I'm a sadsack, I chose a route that would require two changes so that I could travel along the lines I used to live near when I was younger, as I'd never actually been down them. First two trains had A/C....third one was broken
All trains were pretty much on time, and the journey was totally painless (except for the GWR line's lack of air-con, combined with funky-smelling lady in seat ahead).
Salisbury was achieved:
(that's my train just pulling out, sans air-con)
A brief walk to the dealership later, and I was confronted with a very dusty and VERY hot Citroen C4 VTS 180:
Upon being asked whether I wanted to look at the car first, I responded that 'Yes, I would like to look at it first'. I enjoyed the fact that this seemed to put the salesman out somewhat, as the showroom was air-conditioned.
I was led to the C4, and handed a single key with a plastic body of questionable integrity. I was already aware that the only door lock on the car (on the passenger door, obviously) didn't work, so went straight for the knackered key (which the advert stated did function.)
Nothing.
Returned to the showroom and made way to salesman's desk. Upon being asked if it was OK, I suggested that the bit I could see was fine, but sadly I couldn't actually get in. Clearly believing me to be some kind of amateur in the realm of remote key fob operation, he went to try for himself, and sure enough was greeted with the same issue. One hot car park, one very hot C4, and one increasingly pissed-off me, though doing my best to keep my s
t together.A Citroen salesman was collared (obviously a natural talent in the world of remote vehicle electronics) who played with the key until the car suddenly unlocked. He suggested the contact for the battery was dicky, so we taped the key up and left the car unlocked at that point. The car started up, behaved and did everything you'd want, aside from having WORKING AIR-CONDIDDLYDITIONING (OK, possibly hoping for a bit too much there). Funds were exchanged, and I made my way to a petrol station to increase the number of miles remaining on the fuel-trip computer (currently displaying zero).
I also bought a huge baguette, a chocolate bar and a drink. I set about the journey home and looked for a nice place to sit and eat:
It didn't take long to realise this was not a good place to sit and eat:
A short time later, I found a shady spot!
The drive home was uneventful, and the car even managed to average 38mpg without me even considering fuel economy. The ride was also smoother than I remembered. Upon my return to Fareham, I discovered that the 'battery issue' with the keyfob was, in fact, a broken micro-switch on the circuit board. Even better, it had already been superglued as a quick fix. I was now faced with a car that I couldn't lock or unlock. I decided to try and revive the passenger doorlock, which I hoped was seized up due to lack of use:
After 30mins of faffing around, I managed to free off the lock with my remaining key blade! I was now able to lock and unlock the car, at least!
One thing I'd noticed the entirety of the journey home was the amount of rattles and knocks coming from the rear end. Yes, it's French and all that, but so was the 407, and that didn't really rattle at all, despite its 215k miles and past as a taxi in Manchester! This was extreme, so I went hunting before i went home.
I found the spare wheel not fastened down, and a loose jack and mounting foam loose in the back, along with a lot of crud:
And having located the tow-eye (in the front door pocket; a sign of complete confidence in the car....!) I fastened everything down:
While refitting the boot carpet, I noticed another thoughtful design touch, which it was already clear the C4 was overflowing with:
What initially appeared to be a loose piece of trim, turned out to be a retractable boot tidy! I then went round all the tyres, and found one had 10PSI in it. Having re-inflated all of them to the correct pressure, the ride was now stiffer and the boot rattled were than ever. Hmmm...not the spare tyre & jack then!
I finished the day removing the dust and muck from the car in a manner befitting a £920 wreck:
Not too bad!
Issues notable at close of play, Wednesday 27th June:
- Exhaust blowing a-hooly in multiple places.
- Air-con has fked off somewhere.
- Directional headlamps don't work
- Headlamp washers don't seem to work (or I don't know how to operate them)
- All manner of bad noises coming from boot when traversing the roads of Britain
- Lots of dings and dents
- Tyre/wheel bearing rumble from NSR
- Lock shenanigans
- Seats are BRILLIANT. Very comfy.
- Stereo is bangin' choons
- Corners very flat
- Brakes a bit snatchy, gearshift a bit woolly
- Engine seems to rev to near 8k RPM (who needs a Type-R?!)
- Car is not quick (oh....I need a Type-R)
- Gearing very short (4k rpm at 80mph)
- Very likable car. Lots of clever touches and quirks. Feels interesting and special compared with Focus' and Astras et al
Edited by Kitchski on Friday 29th June 01:16
Yesterday's antics yielded some positive results. Of the 1,054 rattles emanating from the rear end, it transpired that some broken trim and a loose rear spoiler were the main culprits, if not the sole offenders.
Having removed said broken trim, I was delirious when I discovered that the spoiler was not only simply bolted on; it was also loose! Fears of broken captive fixings, broken tailgates and shattered glass had been in my mind all night. One 10mm socket later, and the spoiler was solid
Rattles haven't disappeared completely, but they're much reduced now.
Another job which had been nagging me was the exhaust. It was puffing and blowing quite badly, and though it wasn't too bad when started cold, it got much worse within 15mins of driving - up to the point I was worried it was going to snap in half and polevolt the rear end of the car into the top of a lampost!
I was keen to sort the exhaust out, for two reasons. Firstly, genuine replacements are £1500 from Citroen, because the exhaust is unique to the VTS 180, and in the event you do manage to fit an aftermarket one, it will be for a 138bhp cooking 2.0 model, and therefore not as good. Secondly, because the genuine exhausts are soooooo much better than the aftermarket ones (look at the mandrel bends for a start), I wanted to try and preserve the system. It's difficult to explain it, but there's a certain 'sound' French hot hatches make when they're factory spec, and upon replacing the exhaust you lose that particular character. Plus the tailpipe is uber cool, and I don't want to lose it!
So I got it onto a ramp and had a nose underneath:
By and large it's in pretty good shape. Little in the way of surface rust, and apart from a few smashed bits of trim and a missing undertray, it's looking decent enough.
I went exhaust hole hunting (assuming there is supposed to be at least one...), and straight away found an issue:
Fracture around the weld on the centre section. A right royal result, that, because it's easy to weld over and beef it up.
Correct protocol would have been to remove the exhaust entirely, thoroughly clean and prep the metal and seam weld all the way around. Due to time constraints and a lack of spares, I had to make a call; I didn't want to leave it much longer as the noise was getting much worse as the car warmed up, suggesting to me that heat plus the 'push-me/pull-me' motion of the engine acting on the exhaust could cause it to split at any point, and then I'd lose the alignment. So, I tried to clean it up and weld it in-situ, just for now, to keep it in one piece
I don't have a picture of the weld to show you, because trust me, you don't want to see how badly a weld looks on carbon-laced, rusty 12 yr old exhaust silencers! Luckily, exhaust paste was handy to cover it up!:
I do plan to take it all off in the coming weeks anyway, so I can grind it all back and re-weld it all around. It's got to come off anyway, because I found the second blow:
The original backbox is built-up inside, and then the casing is crimped together. That entire crimp is rusted, and on the brink of splitting! So, the exhaust will have to come off anyway, and then I can flip it upside-down, clean it all up and seam-weld it shut. I'll fit new rubbers while I'm there.
I did manage to clean up the tailpipe while I was down there though, and happily it's not rusty:
This is all a result, because it suggests that the rattles and noises, and busted exhaust are probably the reasons the last owner chopped it in. Hopefully it's a good car underneath all that.
Reckon I'll be doing some brakes soon too:
That's no big deal, as I expected to have to do something like that anyway. I have some modifications planned concerning the suspension and brakes, so I'll be in there again soon anyway.
The bodged exhaust made a BIG difference, and the leak is now a minor puff as opposed to a blatant baffly-type rasp. 24hrs in, and the C4 was driving much better, so I stopped for some pics:
The more I'm around it, the more I love the design. I'm not into conventionally-pretty cars, I like interesting-looking cars. Citroen SM and Lexus LFA are on the dream list; neither are classically handsome, yet I could look at either for hours on end! The C4 is the same. There are so many areas where they just went a different route, and it really stands out. It was parked next to an Astra earlier, and the Vauxhall just looked so ordinary compared with it.
I mean, how many cars have a boot profile like this?!:
The nuttiness continues inside. A centrally-mounted, translucent speedo cluster:
(this is actually really cool when you drive down a road with shadows from trees or buildings, as the shadows show through it as you pass them)
The rev counter is equally.....well, yeah:
And then there's the steering wheel, which my kids are still amused by!
Wheel straight:
Wheel turned:
One issue I do have is the fact it's absolutely roasting here at the moment. Outside temperature down in Hampshire while these pics were taken:
To that end, it's currently in a garage over the road seeing if it'll take any gas in the air-con. I'm hoping to whatever deity you believe in that it does!
Having removed said broken trim, I was delirious when I discovered that the spoiler was not only simply bolted on; it was also loose! Fears of broken captive fixings, broken tailgates and shattered glass had been in my mind all night. One 10mm socket later, and the spoiler was solid
Rattles haven't disappeared completely, but they're much reduced now.
Another job which had been nagging me was the exhaust. It was puffing and blowing quite badly, and though it wasn't too bad when started cold, it got much worse within 15mins of driving - up to the point I was worried it was going to snap in half and polevolt the rear end of the car into the top of a lampost!
I was keen to sort the exhaust out, for two reasons. Firstly, genuine replacements are £1500 from Citroen, because the exhaust is unique to the VTS 180, and in the event you do manage to fit an aftermarket one, it will be for a 138bhp cooking 2.0 model, and therefore not as good. Secondly, because the genuine exhausts are soooooo much better than the aftermarket ones (look at the mandrel bends for a start), I wanted to try and preserve the system. It's difficult to explain it, but there's a certain 'sound' French hot hatches make when they're factory spec, and upon replacing the exhaust you lose that particular character. Plus the tailpipe is uber cool, and I don't want to lose it!
So I got it onto a ramp and had a nose underneath:
By and large it's in pretty good shape. Little in the way of surface rust, and apart from a few smashed bits of trim and a missing undertray, it's looking decent enough.
I went exhaust hole hunting (assuming there is supposed to be at least one...), and straight away found an issue:
Fracture around the weld on the centre section. A right royal result, that, because it's easy to weld over and beef it up.
Correct protocol would have been to remove the exhaust entirely, thoroughly clean and prep the metal and seam weld all the way around. Due to time constraints and a lack of spares, I had to make a call; I didn't want to leave it much longer as the noise was getting much worse as the car warmed up, suggesting to me that heat plus the 'push-me/pull-me' motion of the engine acting on the exhaust could cause it to split at any point, and then I'd lose the alignment. So, I tried to clean it up and weld it in-situ, just for now, to keep it in one piece
I don't have a picture of the weld to show you, because trust me, you don't want to see how badly a weld looks on carbon-laced, rusty 12 yr old exhaust silencers! Luckily, exhaust paste was handy to cover it up!:
I do plan to take it all off in the coming weeks anyway, so I can grind it all back and re-weld it all around. It's got to come off anyway, because I found the second blow:
The original backbox is built-up inside, and then the casing is crimped together. That entire crimp is rusted, and on the brink of splitting! So, the exhaust will have to come off anyway, and then I can flip it upside-down, clean it all up and seam-weld it shut. I'll fit new rubbers while I'm there.
I did manage to clean up the tailpipe while I was down there though, and happily it's not rusty:
This is all a result, because it suggests that the rattles and noises, and busted exhaust are probably the reasons the last owner chopped it in. Hopefully it's a good car underneath all that.
Reckon I'll be doing some brakes soon too:
That's no big deal, as I expected to have to do something like that anyway. I have some modifications planned concerning the suspension and brakes, so I'll be in there again soon anyway.
The bodged exhaust made a BIG difference, and the leak is now a minor puff as opposed to a blatant baffly-type rasp. 24hrs in, and the C4 was driving much better, so I stopped for some pics:
The more I'm around it, the more I love the design. I'm not into conventionally-pretty cars, I like interesting-looking cars. Citroen SM and Lexus LFA are on the dream list; neither are classically handsome, yet I could look at either for hours on end! The C4 is the same. There are so many areas where they just went a different route, and it really stands out. It was parked next to an Astra earlier, and the Vauxhall just looked so ordinary compared with it.
I mean, how many cars have a boot profile like this?!:
The nuttiness continues inside. A centrally-mounted, translucent speedo cluster:
(this is actually really cool when you drive down a road with shadows from trees or buildings, as the shadows show through it as you pass them)
The rev counter is equally.....well, yeah:
And then there's the steering wheel, which my kids are still amused by!
Wheel straight:
Wheel turned:
One issue I do have is the fact it's absolutely roasting here at the moment. Outside temperature down in Hampshire while these pics were taken:
To that end, it's currently in a garage over the road seeing if it'll take any gas in the air-con. I'm hoping to whatever deity you believe in that it does!
Nickp82 said:
Sorry but I have to take issue with this, why on earth would you buy a chocolate bar on such a hot day?
Otherwise, a very entertaining thread!
If I was prone to make a poor decision on a day I bought a car, I'll happily take it as the chocolate bar, rather than the choice of car! Otherwise, a very entertaining thread!
Shadow R1 said:
Great stuff.
Enjoy your write ups.
Really? You must be easily amused Enjoy your write ups.
confused_buyer said:
On some of these (and the Pug 307/308) the Condensor is quite easy to do. You'll probably need the front bumper off to get access to the connectors and maybe the top retaining bolt but if there is room in the engine bay the radiator can just be pushed backwards and the condensor pulls straight out. It isn't actually held in by anything at all other than the radiator its self.
We'll find out; condenser ordered earlier on, should be here tomorrow. Fitting it and getting air-con working is just ahead of eating and drinking on my list of daily priorities. I did the condenser on the 407, and that was a doddle.Spinakerr said:
Great read, I have to say I never knew of the car until this post, but after conquering my disbelief that you've bought a Citroen without an 'X' in the model name, this looks to be a good hack. The Civic Type R resemblances are plentiful but it has definite charm. Good luck with the AC hunt - sure these are primer breaker territory given their age?
They're pretty rare. I think there are only 250 in the UK, and there have never been more than 600 if you believe the stats. And yes, it does feel odd sans 'X'!The Civic Type-R would be quicker and more 'hot-hatchish' without doubt, but when it's £900 vs. £3000, I'm not sure the difference is justified. The C4 is proving very likable for a 'modern' - surprisingly so.
I imagine we lose a few C4s a day to scrap, so I should be able to source a cubby box to replace the CD changer under the armrest.
Spumfry said:
Nice left-field choice, I've always thought these were good looking cars. Good write up too - worthy of Doug deMuro, introducing us to 'all the quirks and features, of which there are many'!
The '180' stands for 180ps, rather than 'nearly 180bhp'.
I'll have to do a YT video with big bright colourful letters across the thumbnail saying "Why the Citroen C4 VTS is both rubbish and great", or something...The '180' stands for 180ps, rather than 'nearly 180bhp'.
I could be wrong, but I 'think' they're 177bhp DIN/PS, which is why some places quote them at 174bhp (imperial). Could be wrong. Moot point really, as I don't think it's got more than 165bhp anyway
We'll find out soon as I have a dyno...trails said:
Saw one of these today before I read this, very entertaining. I hope there are no nasty surprises in store for you
I don't think you can get nasty surprises at £900! And with the nature of the other cars I own, this one is as sensible as they come...I'll keep this updated, with all the ups and downs. Not as many downs as S0.01HP's Impreza, but there is still time!
Surprising amount of love for the typically-unpopular French motor 
The engine is a trifle underpowered, yeah. Simon's made ~163bhp on the dyno IIRC, so I'm not expecting much from this. Would go against the grain of PSA engines always delivering on the dyno, though, as normally they equal or even better their book figures.
The engine itself is from the EW family, which replaced the XU series. They're visually quite similar to their predecessor, and even share some componentry (which is great, cos it means I can get my rocks off about the fact there are some BX parts in my engine......mmmmmmmmm).
EW engines are normally found under the bonnet of regular Citroen C5 and Peugeot 307/407 models (the 14 of them that weren't specced with a diesel engine). The version in the C4 VTS is the EW10J4S. Being a 2.0 variant, it carries the 'EW10' designation (EW7 being a 1.8). The 'J' refers to it being petrol injection (I think), the '4' is 4 valves per cylinder, and the 'S' means Sport (I'm making that bit up, but it could do, couldn't it?
The lineage through the line of peaky performance PSA 1.9/2.0 engines is pretty clear!
XU9J4 as fitted to my BX 16v, along with the Pug 405 Mi16 (ph1) and 309 GTi 16 - 1905cc / 160bhp
XU10J4 as fitted to ZX 16v, 306 S16, ph2 405 Mi16 and early Xantia VSX 16v - 1998cc / 155bhp
XU10J4RS as fitted to Peugeot 306 GTi-6, Citroen Xsara VTS and (very rarely) to ZX 16v 'Dakar' - 1998cc / 167bhp
And then the EW10J4S, as fitted to the 206 GTi 180 (or RC, depending on your location), the 307RC (or 'Feline'....WTF?!) and lastly, the funny looking C4 VTS - 1997cc / 177bhp. It's the only example in this lineup with variable valve timing - all the others are just heavy breathers!
Rumour on the street is that Citroen weren't afforded any real budget to create the 'hot' C4 with, possibly because aside from the AX GT and Saxo VTS, every hot Citroen up to that point were complete sales flops, regardless of how good they were (or were not), depending on your viewpoint. If you go back to the ZX 16v or Xsara VTS compared with their mainstream equivalents, they often had bespoke suspension, steering and braking setups. The C4 had to make do with the bits from a 206 GTi 180, simply carried over. That's why it only has 5 gears; the 206 doesn't have the space for a 6-speeder.
In an era of five-pot turbo Focus STs, 250bhp Astra VXRs and Golf GTis with 200bhp minimum, 177bhp and only 149lbft in a C4 weighing in at 1350kg doesn't sound much. And you'd be right, it isn't!
Performance-wise, my impressions so far is that it likes to rev (feels like it's still pulling hard at 7k rpm, just before the 7600rpm limiter, but whether it actually is or not, I couldn't say!) However, it doesn't actually sound like it likes to rev, which is a crying shame, as all the above engines all emitted snorty, growling 4-pot DOHC induction notes. This one.....it just doesn't! I also seem to remember Si's (and Carl you might be able to confirm or dismiss this) used to make a little 'pop' from the exhaust on each hard gear change, which this car also doesn't do.
To that end, induction and minor exhaust tinkering might be a thing of the future. Nothing major, just a little bit to bring out the proper French hot-hatch sound effects of the 1990's.
The gearing is very short (4k revs @ 80mph), but that does at least mean you can pick up speed very easily at lower revs/speeds - far faster than you'd accredit a low-torque, high-revs lump like this to be capable of.
It's actually quite interesting as a car, because it looks quite modern, even now (to my eyes anyway). It's funky and different, and you'd expect it to be powered by some hybrid hydrogen hypercelled rotary.....thing. And yet, it sounds totally old school! The exhaust rasps a bit like a 306, the gearchange feels old and the whole 'character' of the thing is that of a car about 10/15 years older.
The only annoying thing so far, is the rev counter. It glows bright red when you're redlining it. And, by red lining it, I mean once you've already hit the limiter. Yeah, thanks for the warning....
The engine is a trifle underpowered, yeah. Simon's made ~163bhp on the dyno IIRC, so I'm not expecting much from this. Would go against the grain of PSA engines always delivering on the dyno, though, as normally they equal or even better their book figures.
The engine itself is from the EW family, which replaced the XU series. They're visually quite similar to their predecessor, and even share some componentry (which is great, cos it means I can get my rocks off about the fact there are some BX parts in my engine......mmmmmmmmm).
EW engines are normally found under the bonnet of regular Citroen C5 and Peugeot 307/407 models (the 14 of them that weren't specced with a diesel engine). The version in the C4 VTS is the EW10J4S. Being a 2.0 variant, it carries the 'EW10' designation (EW7 being a 1.8). The 'J' refers to it being petrol injection (I think), the '4' is 4 valves per cylinder, and the 'S' means Sport (I'm making that bit up, but it could do, couldn't it?
The lineage through the line of peaky performance PSA 1.9/2.0 engines is pretty clear!
XU9J4 as fitted to my BX 16v, along with the Pug 405 Mi16 (ph1) and 309 GTi 16 - 1905cc / 160bhp
XU10J4 as fitted to ZX 16v, 306 S16, ph2 405 Mi16 and early Xantia VSX 16v - 1998cc / 155bhp
XU10J4RS as fitted to Peugeot 306 GTi-6, Citroen Xsara VTS and (very rarely) to ZX 16v 'Dakar' - 1998cc / 167bhp
And then the EW10J4S, as fitted to the 206 GTi 180 (or RC, depending on your location), the 307RC (or 'Feline'....WTF?!) and lastly, the funny looking C4 VTS - 1997cc / 177bhp. It's the only example in this lineup with variable valve timing - all the others are just heavy breathers!
Rumour on the street is that Citroen weren't afforded any real budget to create the 'hot' C4 with, possibly because aside from the AX GT and Saxo VTS, every hot Citroen up to that point were complete sales flops, regardless of how good they were (or were not), depending on your viewpoint. If you go back to the ZX 16v or Xsara VTS compared with their mainstream equivalents, they often had bespoke suspension, steering and braking setups. The C4 had to make do with the bits from a 206 GTi 180, simply carried over. That's why it only has 5 gears; the 206 doesn't have the space for a 6-speeder.
In an era of five-pot turbo Focus STs, 250bhp Astra VXRs and Golf GTis with 200bhp minimum, 177bhp and only 149lbft in a C4 weighing in at 1350kg doesn't sound much. And you'd be right, it isn't!
Performance-wise, my impressions so far is that it likes to rev (feels like it's still pulling hard at 7k rpm, just before the 7600rpm limiter, but whether it actually is or not, I couldn't say!) However, it doesn't actually sound like it likes to rev, which is a crying shame, as all the above engines all emitted snorty, growling 4-pot DOHC induction notes. This one.....it just doesn't! I also seem to remember Si's (and Carl you might be able to confirm or dismiss this) used to make a little 'pop' from the exhaust on each hard gear change, which this car also doesn't do.
To that end, induction and minor exhaust tinkering might be a thing of the future. Nothing major, just a little bit to bring out the proper French hot-hatch sound effects of the 1990's.
The gearing is very short (4k revs @ 80mph), but that does at least mean you can pick up speed very easily at lower revs/speeds - far faster than you'd accredit a low-torque, high-revs lump like this to be capable of.
It's actually quite interesting as a car, because it looks quite modern, even now (to my eyes anyway). It's funky and different, and you'd expect it to be powered by some hybrid hydrogen hypercelled rotary.....thing. And yet, it sounds totally old school! The exhaust rasps a bit like a 306, the gearchange feels old and the whole 'character' of the thing is that of a car about 10/15 years older.
The only annoying thing so far, is the rev counter. It glows bright red when you're redlining it. And, by red lining it, I mean once you've already hit the limiter. Yeah, thanks for the warning....
A little while since the last update. Not too many happenings in the world of the C4 to report on at the moment. It's proving decent enough transport, and will easily average 30mpg, with higher achievable if you put some effort in.
To kick things off, I had the cambelt changed. I had no idea when it was done last, and though I felt that highly unlikely it hadn't been carried out, it was still worth getting it done, not least because this is a VERY interference engine! And, perhaps surprisingly, I entrusted the job to a local decent mechanic, who carried out the job for the very reasonable sum of £100! All I needed to do was supply the new timing belt kit (complete with tensioners etc) and water pump (which turned out to be a complete pump with body, as the original was plastic!) That was all carried out, though I instructed him to simply refill the cooling system with water, for reasons that will become apparently further down...
One of the bugbears the car came with was a fluffy exhaust. It wasn't a little leak, it was substantial blowage! Some repairs were carried out earlier in the thread, but you might remember I found the casing of the entire rear silencer was fractured, so it was duly removed:
All assumptions about the silencer potentially never having been removed before were dashed at a rate that could only have been matched by the girl I fancied in yr9. Either that, or a pigeon had managed to nest atop the box itself:
The repairs I had planned, however, proved more successful than my attempts to woo the lovely Vicky (which were entirely unsuccessful....):
Well, I say successful - the exhaust is still sounding pretty 'frilly'! There aren't any leaks now, but it looks like a lot of the less-than-desirable sound effects may actually have been a combo of leaks and 122k mile old baffles in the silencer. Bugger.
A more pressing issue (what with the recent slightly-warmer-than-normal climate, has been the lack of air-conditioning. A previous trip to the local chap with a vac had shown the condenser was leaky. That meant I needed to remove the radiator, which was fine as the cooling system was still just full of neat water, and the access to the condenser was fair with the rad out of the way.
Just as well, because THIS bd PIPE FITTING!!!!!!:
Honestly, I could see this one going very Pete Tong. And this pipe was the one from the evaporator, nestled way up behind the bulkhead, under the windscreen: VERY difficult to access, and £200 for the part! Thankfully I managed to disconnect it and took the obligatory side-by-side pics with the new condenser:
All refitted, followed by a cheap re-gas around the corner and I'm cooking on gas! Well, actually no, it's the opposite!
TBC....
To kick things off, I had the cambelt changed. I had no idea when it was done last, and though I felt that highly unlikely it hadn't been carried out, it was still worth getting it done, not least because this is a VERY interference engine! And, perhaps surprisingly, I entrusted the job to a local decent mechanic, who carried out the job for the very reasonable sum of £100! All I needed to do was supply the new timing belt kit (complete with tensioners etc) and water pump (which turned out to be a complete pump with body, as the original was plastic!) That was all carried out, though I instructed him to simply refill the cooling system with water, for reasons that will become apparently further down...
One of the bugbears the car came with was a fluffy exhaust. It wasn't a little leak, it was substantial blowage! Some repairs were carried out earlier in the thread, but you might remember I found the casing of the entire rear silencer was fractured, so it was duly removed:
All assumptions about the silencer potentially never having been removed before were dashed at a rate that could only have been matched by the girl I fancied in yr9. Either that, or a pigeon had managed to nest atop the box itself:
The repairs I had planned, however, proved more successful than my attempts to woo the lovely Vicky (which were entirely unsuccessful....):
Well, I say successful - the exhaust is still sounding pretty 'frilly'! There aren't any leaks now, but it looks like a lot of the less-than-desirable sound effects may actually have been a combo of leaks and 122k mile old baffles in the silencer. Bugger.
A more pressing issue (what with the recent slightly-warmer-than-normal climate, has been the lack of air-conditioning. A previous trip to the local chap with a vac had shown the condenser was leaky. That meant I needed to remove the radiator, which was fine as the cooling system was still just full of neat water, and the access to the condenser was fair with the rad out of the way.
Just as well, because THIS b
d PIPE FITTING!!!!!!:Honestly, I could see this one going very Pete Tong. And this pipe was the one from the evaporator, nestled way up behind the bulkhead, under the windscreen: VERY difficult to access, and £200 for the part! Thankfully I managed to disconnect it and took the obligatory side-by-side pics with the new condenser:
All refitted, followed by a cheap re-gas around the corner and I'm cooking on gas! Well, actually no, it's the opposite!
TBC....
J.C... said:
Yeah love these cars. If nothing else just for that steering wheel. Unfortunately I don’t possess the size of bks big enough to actually own one so it’s great there’s people like yourself around to scratch my itch for me, figuratively speaking.
See, you say that, but on the flip-side, you could buy a Golf diesel on a forecourt for £12k, and lose £2k in value over that year. This conventional, mass-produced hatchback cost £920, and so far owes about £1100. It's comfy, it does 30mpg, and the stereo is bangin' ks big enough to actually own one so it’s great there’s people like yourself around to scratch my itch for me, figuratively speaking. Honestly, no large b
ks are required! A Focus could bite me on the arse harder than this!S100HP said:
We are waiting
Oh yes. I can't remember what I was going to say now! I think just some summaries of what I've learned so far.Pros of Le C4 Voiture Tres Sportive 180:
- It's funky (as in, interesting, not smelly)
- Good seats
- Engine likes to rev - seems to pull all the way to the limiter
- Economy is sensible
- Feels pretty good quality from front seats forwards
- Bangin' stereo
- Stereo needs to be good to drown out ALL THE RATTLES from the rear end
- Grip is poor - tyres are quite narrow
- Only 5spd? It's doing 4k revs @ 80mph!
- Doors clang shut like a 2CVs, though I suspect it might be fixable
- Auto-wipers don't seem to work. If there is rain on the screen, they come on. They don't go off when the rain stops though...
Life's been a bit 'hectic' in recent weeks, but that hasn't prevented the £900 chariot of quirky love from progressing forwards, despite the obvious wasting of time and money.
One of the biggest (in fact, no....THE biggest) bugbear of the entire car has been the rattles and squeaks emanating from that funny-looking arse end. Before any smartarses get in there, yes - I'm aware it's French! Thing is, we have a few BXs in the stable, along with a Saxo, none of which are actually as rattly as conventional wisdom suggests. In fact, the Pug 407 that this car replaced was actually screwed together pretty well (as it should be, seeing as it weighed as much as Europa). So why the C4? And why is it SO rattly?!
I decided to find out. Out with the entire contents of the back of the car:
And some time spent using it as a wannabe race car:
Now you would think that running around like that would make it easy to suss out the source of the audible issues, right?
Wrong.
What actually happened is that the really annoying, lightweight (but heavier than plastic) rattle got worse, and the squeak (which had been present pretty much since two days post-collection) disappeared. "Aha!" Thinks I. The squeak must be rear seat/boot trim/something I've touched-related.
Wrong.
The squeak came back, just not as frequently as before.
I decided to persevere with the rattle(s). I include the '(s)' there, because it came apparent that I actually had multiple rattling. I discovered one of the rattles was the bootlid, which wasn't fastening tightly shut. This is normally a simple case of adjusting the striker plate to pull the boot down a bit tighter.
Wrong.
The striker is not adjustable. It's a fixed-position, meaning I can't do anything with it. Looks like I'll be living with it, then?
bks to that! I removed striker, drilled holes out in rear panel, moved it down about 3mm and re-tightened it. Boot rattle - gone!
The lightweight, really, really annoying rattle persisted, however. This one was going to be trickier to sort out, because it was just the strangest type of noise. While the boot rattle did kinda sound like the kinda rattle a 12 year old funny-shaped loose French bootlid might make, this lighter rattle was much trickier to suss out. It was constant, like a loose bit of plastic inside the spare wheel-well jumping around and sliding about. It was a really odd one.
And then I found the third brake light!
Doesn't look much, but it's held in place by two plastic pegs, which just slot into the bootlid. There are two small sprung plastic tabs which click into said slots.
When the lamp is fitted into the bootlid, the tabs lock into the slots, preventing the lamp from popping back out. But guess what? IT'S NOT TIGHT!!
A quick wobble of the lamp unit created the noise. The exactly same noise I keep hearing! Makes sense too; I can hear it more since I stripped the back end out; I can find no loose componentry or random bits....it ticks all the boxes.
A visit to the self-tapper drawer and I'd modified the lamp:
Excited as a fairly grumpy 35 year old man can be, I shut the boot and jumped straight back into the car, ready to experience a rattle-free, warm-at-best French hatchback!
Wrong.
Rattle still there. No different, in fact. If I sat quietly, I'm pretty sure I could hear it laughing at me.
st is beginning to get serious now. I'm not in the mood for this. Worse-still, the original boot lid rattle is starting to try and make a comeback! I note that two of the plastic guide slots for the boot lock look worn. Upon removal, they're packed out with rubber domes, to keep everything under tension. Those rubber domes are worn and misshapen, so I wrap them in self-amalgamating tape, and pack them back in tightly. Once again, bootlid silence regained.
I decide that I'm getting nowhere with these bd rattles, so order lots of car parts instead. I'd found some Apex 40mm lowering springs earlier on in the summer, so along with these I ordered a pair of new Bilstein B4 rear dampers (£65 for the pair - bargain), a pair of Febi rear top-mounts and new discs and pads all round. I also ordered a pair of new tyres for the rear end, as the existing ones were misshapen, and harder than me at crochet club (I fking LOVE crochet club!!)
I also wanted to source some spacers for the wheels, as the 'stance' (I've died a little inside, using that term) of the C4 was all wrong. It looked gawky, and under-tyred. I'd noticed other owners plumping for a set of 25mm H&R hubcentric spacers, which seemed to sort this out, but at nearly £100 a pair, it seemed an expense I'd struggle to justify.
And then, I found an eBay listing for C2 spacers. Same hubcentric design, but only 20mm each. Having confirmed that the C2 and C4 use the same wheel fitment, I decided that at only £49 a pair, a saving of £100 successfully negated a loss of 5mm per wheel. And besides, I could always lie and tell people they were still 25mm, if I was that bothered. Lying about things that I wish were bigger than they actually are in reality is something I've become really good at.
The spacers arrived, so Thursday night last week, I decided to go about lowering my car, and spacing the wheels out. I felt 18 all over again (well, when I was 18 I had a 1986 Honda Prelude, and neither lowered it, nor did I space the wheels out. You know what I mean, though).
Naturally I took little to no pictures of this event. The front end was a pig, because not only did I have to remove the scuttle tray and wiper arms (which was rusted on) to access the strut top mounts, I also completely forgot to order in a pair of front anti-roll bar droplinks (you know, those things that are ALWAYS rusted up if you don't have a new set to hand, but are completely fine if you do?) This meant that I had to undo the top mounts, lower the strut in the wheel arch enough to clear all the awkward-shaped bits of metal and plastic that surrounded it, rotate it about 43 times (failing to note the order, which would make refitting much easier) and try to change the front springs while balancing the strut in my left hand. Luckily, I had the aid of a windy gun, because without that I can guarantee I'd have been leaving the C4 jacked up in the workshop, and pissing off home in an old Fiat van!
What also made it a complete pig, is that in all these years I failed to remember what happens if you yank on the nearside driveshaft on a PSA motor. Luckily I had gearbox oil to had.
The front end took me the best part of 3 hours to do. I started at 6pm and finished that at nearly 9! I could hear Autodata laughing all the way from their HQ in.....I dunno, Kettering?
Thankfully the rear end was more simple. Unlike previous PSA offerings, the C4 uses a torsion beam and coil springs, rather than torsion bars. Pretty much the same setup as a mk4 Golf, if I'm honest. Rear springs were switched, headlamp height adjuster lever was snapped (because....well, yeah. I forgot) and the new Billy shox and top mounts fitted.
It was during this that I noted the offside rear top mount felt a little funny. Loose, in fact. Thought nothing of it.
Anyway, car back on deck. Stand back, marvel at the new STANCE YO and drive it around the yard to allow everything to bed in and check it's good to go (a trip to Burger King was beckoning).
NO
BLOODY
RATTLES
OR
SQUEAKS!!!!
Honestly! It's like a new car. It's silent! It feels hewn from granite! I swear there are dinosaur fossils in there, somewhere! I honestly didn't think it'd make a difference. In fact, no, scrub that - I thought it would make it worse, because it's a bit stiffer now. I was prepared for that, but I wasn't prepared to find it fixed!
I've been going through a few personal problems recently (nothing interesting, don't get excited) and honestly, finding that I'd sorted that little issue made my day. Or night....evening at a stretch. Who's counting, anyway?
I appreciate this is a cock-handed order to write all this in, but I remembered (while typing out the last paragraph) that before I dicked about with rattles, I put the car on the dyno! We had it up and running to cater for a few classic racing Minis, so felt it would be almost rude to not grab the opportunity to depress myself further, and see just to what extent the C4 would be left wanting.
The C4 didn't disappoint! 10-15 French donkeys have gone missing from the alleged 177 that it left the factory with.
That was the best effort: 167bhp. So in all the years of progress, variable valve timing and improved management systems, the 1340kg C4 is kicking out the same power as the Xsara VTS it replaced, which happened to be carrying around 100kg less to start with. Great. Nice one.
The red, more wobbly line, is actually S100HP's C4 VTS from years ago, which I still had the files for. His only made 162bhp, which provided me with a great source of amusement at the time. I mean, I'm still up on the deal, but it feels like a hollow victory. I think I'm going to remove the EW10J4 from the list of cool PSA twin-cam engines, you know. It's no D6C!
So, how does the C4 VTS now look? How does it drive? How does it steer? Well, wonder no more! Where previously it looked like this:
It now looks like this:
I'm quite pleased. I'm really liking the way this car looks at the moment, and I don't often focus on looks too much. It's just so odd, and quirky:
All this came about as I clicked over 1000miles in it since collection:
30-odd to the gallon, being driven pretty unsympathetically in all conditions. I can live with that.
How does it drive?
Erm....not great. I mean, it was never a class-leading hot hatch anyway. In fact, it wasn't ever a hot hatch. It's about as hot as raw cabbage. To say it's warm would be skirting closer to the apex, but to be honest, I don't even think it'd qualify as that. It's more like a Scirocco than a Gold GTI, if that makes any sense? It's like a hatchback, only slightly less practical. It's quite likeable because it's full of natty features and details. It's a different approach to a thoroughly conventional subject. That gives it character, and character is very difficult to find in a car these days.
The lowering has highlighted that the front dampers probably also need switching for the B4 versions. It skits about and feels less-than composed on fast, bumpy corners. The tyres are just too skinny, and if you switch the ESP off, it'll go full-scale sideways without too much provocation. If you want a track weapon, or B-road blaster, look elsewhere. But for a daily driver that you can happily run, find comfort in and enjoy the virtues of, it's working its way into my heart at the moment.
Burning question is - Goodwood Breakfast Club in November has been decreed as Hot Hatch Sunday! Now, do I play safe and apply to take the Imp (being that the BX is off the road), or do I thrown a curveball and see if the C4 VTS could worm its distinctive way in between the rows and rows of Clios and Golfs?
One of the biggest (in fact, no....THE biggest) bugbear of the entire car has been the rattles and squeaks emanating from that funny-looking arse end. Before any smartarses get in there, yes - I'm aware it's French! Thing is, we have a few BXs in the stable, along with a Saxo, none of which are actually as rattly as conventional wisdom suggests. In fact, the Pug 407 that this car replaced was actually screwed together pretty well (as it should be, seeing as it weighed as much as Europa). So why the C4? And why is it SO rattly?!
I decided to find out. Out with the entire contents of the back of the car:
And some time spent using it as a wannabe race car:
Now you would think that running around like that would make it easy to suss out the source of the audible issues, right?
Wrong.
What actually happened is that the really annoying, lightweight (but heavier than plastic) rattle got worse, and the squeak (which had been present pretty much since two days post-collection) disappeared. "Aha!" Thinks I. The squeak must be rear seat/boot trim/something I've touched-related.
Wrong.
The squeak came back, just not as frequently as before.
I decided to persevere with the rattle(s). I include the '(s)' there, because it came apparent that I actually had multiple rattling. I discovered one of the rattles was the bootlid, which wasn't fastening tightly shut. This is normally a simple case of adjusting the striker plate to pull the boot down a bit tighter.
Wrong.
The striker is not adjustable. It's a fixed-position, meaning I can't do anything with it. Looks like I'll be living with it, then?
b
ks to that! I removed striker, drilled holes out in rear panel, moved it down about 3mm and re-tightened it. Boot rattle - gone!The lightweight, really, really annoying rattle persisted, however. This one was going to be trickier to sort out, because it was just the strangest type of noise. While the boot rattle did kinda sound like the kinda rattle a 12 year old funny-shaped loose French bootlid might make, this lighter rattle was much trickier to suss out. It was constant, like a loose bit of plastic inside the spare wheel-well jumping around and sliding about. It was a really odd one.
And then I found the third brake light!
Doesn't look much, but it's held in place by two plastic pegs, which just slot into the bootlid. There are two small sprung plastic tabs which click into said slots.
When the lamp is fitted into the bootlid, the tabs lock into the slots, preventing the lamp from popping back out. But guess what? IT'S NOT TIGHT!!
A quick wobble of the lamp unit created the noise. The exactly same noise I keep hearing! Makes sense too; I can hear it more since I stripped the back end out; I can find no loose componentry or random bits....it ticks all the boxes.
A visit to the self-tapper drawer and I'd modified the lamp:
Excited as a fairly grumpy 35 year old man can be, I shut the boot and jumped straight back into the car, ready to experience a rattle-free, warm-at-best French hatchback!
Wrong.
Rattle still there. No different, in fact. If I sat quietly, I'm pretty sure I could hear it laughing at me.
s
t is beginning to get serious now. I'm not in the mood for this. Worse-still, the original boot lid rattle is starting to try and make a comeback! I note that two of the plastic guide slots for the boot lock look worn. Upon removal, they're packed out with rubber domes, to keep everything under tension. Those rubber domes are worn and misshapen, so I wrap them in self-amalgamating tape, and pack them back in tightly. Once again, bootlid silence regained. I decide that I'm getting nowhere with these b
d rattles, so order lots of car parts instead. I'd found some Apex 40mm lowering springs earlier on in the summer, so along with these I ordered a pair of new Bilstein B4 rear dampers (£65 for the pair - bargain), a pair of Febi rear top-mounts and new discs and pads all round. I also ordered a pair of new tyres for the rear end, as the existing ones were misshapen, and harder than me at crochet club (I fking LOVE crochet club!!)I also wanted to source some spacers for the wheels, as the 'stance' (I've died a little inside, using that term) of the C4 was all wrong. It looked gawky, and under-tyred. I'd noticed other owners plumping for a set of 25mm H&R hubcentric spacers, which seemed to sort this out, but at nearly £100 a pair, it seemed an expense I'd struggle to justify.
And then, I found an eBay listing for C2 spacers. Same hubcentric design, but only 20mm each. Having confirmed that the C2 and C4 use the same wheel fitment, I decided that at only £49 a pair, a saving of £100 successfully negated a loss of 5mm per wheel. And besides, I could always lie and tell people they were still 25mm, if I was that bothered. Lying about things that I wish were bigger than they actually are in reality is something I've become really good at.
The spacers arrived, so Thursday night last week, I decided to go about lowering my car, and spacing the wheels out. I felt 18 all over again (well, when I was 18 I had a 1986 Honda Prelude, and neither lowered it, nor did I space the wheels out. You know what I mean, though).
Naturally I took little to no pictures of this event. The front end was a pig, because not only did I have to remove the scuttle tray and wiper arms (which was rusted on) to access the strut top mounts, I also completely forgot to order in a pair of front anti-roll bar droplinks (you know, those things that are ALWAYS rusted up if you don't have a new set to hand, but are completely fine if you do?) This meant that I had to undo the top mounts, lower the strut in the wheel arch enough to clear all the awkward-shaped bits of metal and plastic that surrounded it, rotate it about 43 times (failing to note the order, which would make refitting much easier) and try to change the front springs while balancing the strut in my left hand. Luckily, I had the aid of a windy gun, because without that I can guarantee I'd have been leaving the C4 jacked up in the workshop, and pissing off home in an old Fiat van!
What also made it a complete pig, is that in all these years I failed to remember what happens if you yank on the nearside driveshaft on a PSA motor. Luckily I had gearbox oil to had.
The front end took me the best part of 3 hours to do. I started at 6pm and finished that at nearly 9! I could hear Autodata laughing all the way from their HQ in.....I dunno, Kettering?
Thankfully the rear end was more simple. Unlike previous PSA offerings, the C4 uses a torsion beam and coil springs, rather than torsion bars. Pretty much the same setup as a mk4 Golf, if I'm honest. Rear springs were switched, headlamp height adjuster lever was snapped (because....well, yeah. I forgot) and the new Billy shox and top mounts fitted.
It was during this that I noted the offside rear top mount felt a little funny. Loose, in fact. Thought nothing of it.
Anyway, car back on deck. Stand back, marvel at the new STANCE YO and drive it around the yard to allow everything to bed in and check it's good to go (a trip to Burger King was beckoning).
NO
BLOODY
RATTLES
OR
SQUEAKS!!!!
Honestly! It's like a new car. It's silent! It feels hewn from granite! I swear there are dinosaur fossils in there, somewhere! I honestly didn't think it'd make a difference. In fact, no, scrub that - I thought it would make it worse, because it's a bit stiffer now. I was prepared for that, but I wasn't prepared to find it fixed!
I've been going through a few personal problems recently (nothing interesting, don't get excited) and honestly, finding that I'd sorted that little issue made my day. Or night....evening at a stretch. Who's counting, anyway?
I appreciate this is a cock-handed order to write all this in, but I remembered (while typing out the last paragraph) that before I dicked about with rattles, I put the car on the dyno! We had it up and running to cater for a few classic racing Minis, so felt it would be almost rude to not grab the opportunity to depress myself further, and see just to what extent the C4 would be left wanting.
The C4 didn't disappoint! 10-15 French donkeys have gone missing from the alleged 177 that it left the factory with.
That was the best effort: 167bhp. So in all the years of progress, variable valve timing and improved management systems, the 1340kg C4 is kicking out the same power as the Xsara VTS it replaced, which happened to be carrying around 100kg less to start with. Great. Nice one.
The red, more wobbly line, is actually S100HP's C4 VTS from years ago, which I still had the files for. His only made 162bhp, which provided me with a great source of amusement at the time. I mean, I'm still up on the deal, but it feels like a hollow victory. I think I'm going to remove the EW10J4 from the list of cool PSA twin-cam engines, you know. It's no D6C!
So, how does the C4 VTS now look? How does it drive? How does it steer? Well, wonder no more! Where previously it looked like this:
It now looks like this:
I'm quite pleased. I'm really liking the way this car looks at the moment, and I don't often focus on looks too much. It's just so odd, and quirky:
All this came about as I clicked over 1000miles in it since collection:
30-odd to the gallon, being driven pretty unsympathetically in all conditions. I can live with that.
How does it drive?
Erm....not great. I mean, it was never a class-leading hot hatch anyway. In fact, it wasn't ever a hot hatch. It's about as hot as raw cabbage. To say it's warm would be skirting closer to the apex, but to be honest, I don't even think it'd qualify as that. It's more like a Scirocco than a Gold GTI, if that makes any sense? It's like a hatchback, only slightly less practical. It's quite likeable because it's full of natty features and details. It's a different approach to a thoroughly conventional subject. That gives it character, and character is very difficult to find in a car these days.
The lowering has highlighted that the front dampers probably also need switching for the B4 versions. It skits about and feels less-than composed on fast, bumpy corners. The tyres are just too skinny, and if you switch the ESP off, it'll go full-scale sideways without too much provocation. If you want a track weapon, or B-road blaster, look elsewhere. But for a daily driver that you can happily run, find comfort in and enjoy the virtues of, it's working its way into my heart at the moment.
Burning question is - Goodwood Breakfast Club in November has been decreed as Hot Hatch Sunday! Now, do I play safe and apply to take the Imp (being that the BX is off the road), or do I thrown a curveball and see if the C4 VTS could worm its distinctive way in between the rows and rows of Clios and Golfs?
Mr2Mike said:
Hard to believe that car would be been the better part of £20k new (list price at least). No wonder they are a rarity.
I know! I was reading an article the other day from back in the day (EVO 2006, possibly?) where they were comparing it to the Civic Type-R. The C4 was £1k more than the Civic back then, despite the fact that, as a hot hatch, the Civic was far superior!A lot of tech in the C4 though, for its time.
miken2k8 said:
why put it down you obviously love it creating this detailed thread? just because it cost peanuts doesn't mean it's not a great car
I didn't realise I was 'putting it down', but if I've written anything negative it's just being honest. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at?Certainly don't love it. It's an interesting and likeable daily banger, at the moment.
Cambs_Stuart said:
Great work, really enjoying the thread even if I can't see the pictures.
Any plans to restore some of those missing horses?
Thanks. No, no plans to think about power or anything like that. I do plan to fabricate some kind of induction kit for it (as a brand new K&N Typhoon kit is more than a 3rd of the purchase price of this car), but that's just for noise, and for the fact the original intake bellows have split, and are covered in gaffer tape.Any plans to restore some of those missing horses?
Having seen two different C4 VTS' on the dyno, both with similarly crap power curves, it's more likely that's just the nature of the beast, as opposed to an underlying fault.
MJ85 said:
150 at the wheels seems okay?
It's about right for something with ~165 at the fly, so yeah, not too fussed there. It's got enough to get up hills and to do 70mph, so it's all I need really Podie said:
far more interesting to see the rare / oddities than another bloody Golf variant.Usget said:
Looks much better with the spacers and sitting slightly lower. Much more purposeful.
Is there anything that can be done simply to the engine to encourage a few of those donkeys back from the pasture, do you think?
Yeah I agree, I still think the fronts are sat too far inboard, but the profile of the arches is a funny one, so it makes it look a bit worse than it really is. I much prefer it though.Is there anything that can be done simply to the engine to encourage a few of those donkeys back from the pasture, do you think?
Not sure on the engine front. I'm planning an induction kit of some sort to aid noise, but no idea about grunt. I'm not really that fussed to be honest. It's never going to be fast.
TheVole said:
Take the C4! If it's a hot hatch day then I'm tempted to bring my Ovlov...
Again, problem is whether Goodwood would consider it. I think I'd stand much more chance of getting in with the Imp. My BX 16v did once too, but that's off the road.RicksAlfas said:
Very enjoyable read, merci!
I see one of these in France with lairy stripes over it. It's black with red and white stripes. It might have white wheels. Is it a special edition of some sort? It looks OEM, and not max power aftermarket.
They did a 'by Loeb' model, which for the most part looked like a VTS, only had a 1.6 petrol or diesel engine. Used to like them, but up close I think they look a bit cheesy these days. It might be a stickered-up one of those.I see one of these in France with lairy stripes over it. It's black with red and white stripes. It might have white wheels. Is it a special edition of some sort? It looks OEM, and not max power aftermarket.
J.C... said:
I fell your rattle chasing pain! I spent most of the 5 years I owned my Seat Alhambra trying to trace a boot/under floor rattle. Never did find it, I just used to turn the stereo up, but I bet the bloke who bought it noticed and found it straight away...
Definitely take this to Goodwood. I bet it will be the only one there
My stress levels certainly backed off a bit once it became rattle-free! Was driving me nuts!Definitely take this to Goodwood. I bet it will be the only one there
I'll have to decide whether to apply for this to Goodwood or not. I think I'd probably go Imp this time, purely because it's more likely to get accepted, and it's a more fun day out. The C4 is just my daily driver, at the end of the day.
Planning to take C4 to a Citroen meet on the weekend though. I might have even found an undented bonnet!
TheVole said:
Just as an aside, how does one apply with Goodwood? Is there a form somewhere online?
It's a bit of a work-up. You have to register on the site, then add cars to your garage. Then you have to find the page where you apply and select which cars to apply with. It's quite a clever site, yet a very long-winded and needlessly complex one at the same time.MarkwG said:
Not being nosy...but being nosy, passed a C4 very similar to yours on the M27 near Whiteley this morning. On the hard shoulder? Was going to wave & offer to help, but the driver seemed to be deep in discussion with the nice gentleman in the hat...?
No, not me fortunately! Give it time though! Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff