The Range Racer
Discussion
Hi All!
So after a drunken night on Gran Turismo a couple of months ago, My self and 2 friends (all landrover employees) decided it would be a good idea to try and convert an old range rover into a track car! And from what we have found so far, no one has done it! (how hard can it be?)
Anyway, fast forward a few weeks and none of us had managed to talk each other out of it, so we have a car! A 2005 L322 Range Rover Vouge 4.2L V8 Supercharged.
Anyway, we thought we would create somewhere where people can follow our rather stupid encounter, enjoy!
Charlie, Ryan & Simone
So after a drunken night on Gran Turismo a couple of months ago, My self and 2 friends (all landrover employees) decided it would be a good idea to try and convert an old range rover into a track car! And from what we have found so far, no one has done it! (how hard can it be?)
Anyway, fast forward a few weeks and none of us had managed to talk each other out of it, so we have a car! A 2005 L322 Range Rover Vouge 4.2L V8 Supercharged.
Anyway, we thought we would create somewhere where people can follow our rather stupid encounter, enjoy!
Charlie, Ryan & Simone
We have had the car for a couple of months now we we have a little to catch you all up on so say tuned this weekend.
So here she is!!
At the time it was the cheapest L322 supercharged in the country. Completely staggered at the value for money!
Paid £3630, 170k miles, lots of history, 400hp and NOTHING wrong with it!
fully loaded with options (all of which will be removed when she goes to fat camp)
heated seats, heated steering wheel, TVs in the seats, DVD changer, CD Changer, the list goes on an on.
Anyway we have our start point!
So here she is!!
At the time it was the cheapest L322 supercharged in the country. Completely staggered at the value for money!
Paid £3630, 170k miles, lots of history, 400hp and NOTHING wrong with it!
fully loaded with options (all of which will be removed when she goes to fat camp)
heated seats, heated steering wheel, TVs in the seats, DVD changer, CD Changer, the list goes on an on.
Anyway we have our start point!
Our logic....
Are we mad? Certainly! but maybe not completely.....
Ok maybe we are just trying to justify our mistake here but here goes. It seems that the formula for a good track car is well practised, start with something light and nimble then add some sticky tyres, big brakes, stiffer anti roll bars and some more power and hey presto! you have some thing fast an fun.
BUT what if you had the opposite approach? start with something like a range rover...
- Mac strut front suspension (like a 911)
- Double wishbone rear (like a F1 Car)
- Huge 4pot brakes from standard
- Huge Anti roll bars from standard
- 400HP!
Just the ridiculously high centre of gravity and the 2640kg (yes, we had it weighed) to fix then! Easy right?.....
Are we mad? Certainly! but maybe not completely.....
Ok maybe we are just trying to justify our mistake here but here goes. It seems that the formula for a good track car is well practised, start with something light and nimble then add some sticky tyres, big brakes, stiffer anti roll bars and some more power and hey presto! you have some thing fast an fun.
BUT what if you had the opposite approach? start with something like a range rover...
- Mac strut front suspension (like a 911)
- Double wishbone rear (like a F1 Car)
- Huge 4pot brakes from standard
- Huge Anti roll bars from standard
- 400HP!
Just the ridiculously high centre of gravity and the 2640kg (yes, we had it weighed) to fix then! Easy right?.....
hyphen said:
What do you do at land rover? Are heavily skilled and so equipped for the challenge, or desk jobs in marketing?
I think it would be optimistic to say we are equipped for the challenge! But we all work is chassis design engineering. Intresting we all also own cars far better suited to the track than a range rover!!Charlie - Chassis engineer - E46 M3
Ryan - Chassis engineer - Honda S2000 & V6 MR2
Simone - Chassis engineer - R32 GTR & Audi S6 & Mx5 & almost definitely something else he hasnt told us about yet.
Edited by charlie-5mkmt on Saturday 5th January 13:58
Edited by charlie-5mkmt on Wednesday 16th January 17:36
So our plan...
After we got the car we went back to the pub to discuss what the hell to do, this is our rough plan!
- Oil Change
- Benchmarking track day (in completely standard form)
- Lowering (likely by tricking the air suspension for now)
- New wheels and tyres, smaller in OD and with a little less sidewall.
- Some SERIOUS Weight stripping along with some bucket seats.
After this point i think we will have a fairly good idea of the scale of the mistake we have made....
Longer term & bigger budget goals...
- Conversion to manual and likely rear wheel drive (mainly for weight reasons)
- Coil suspension conversion
- Cage
- Power upgrades, supercharger pully etc
- Quicker steering rack of possible.
Also forgot to mention, we completed out first mod! some minor badge changes!!
After we got the car we went back to the pub to discuss what the hell to do, this is our rough plan!
- Oil Change
- Benchmarking track day (in completely standard form)
- Lowering (likely by tricking the air suspension for now)
- New wheels and tyres, smaller in OD and with a little less sidewall.
- Some SERIOUS Weight stripping along with some bucket seats.
After this point i think we will have a fairly good idea of the scale of the mistake we have made....
Longer term & bigger budget goals...
- Conversion to manual and likely rear wheel drive (mainly for weight reasons)
- Coil suspension conversion
- Cage
- Power upgrades, supercharger pully etc
- Quicker steering rack of possible.
Also forgot to mention, we completed out first mod! some minor badge changes!!
h0b0 said:
I went for an interview at Gaydon years ago. I was amused by the works car park. One section was all Ford owned Marques. Our host told us they got big discounts on cars and got new ones every year.
As we drove passed the second employee section it was full of very nice cars like M3s and M5s. Our host said to us “those are all owned by the people who design the chassis and like to drive. We ask them to park away from the building entrances visitors don’t realize they are employees”.
Its a strange place! the car park transforms between winter and summer from boring daily's to more like a car show.As we drove passed the second employee section it was full of very nice cars like M3s and M5s. Our host said to us “those are all owned by the people who design the chassis and like to drive. We ask them to park away from the building entrances visitors don’t realize they are employees”.
Edited by h0b0 on Saturday 5th January 14:07
TVR Sagaris said:
Amazing. In for the long haul.
That is surely a huge bargain for a Range Rover of that age? Why so cheap? I still think these are bloody nice cars and yours is the version of the L322 which I think look best - the later, final facelift was a retrograde step to my eyes.
Honestly not too sure why it was so cheap, i can only assume that people are scared off by the high mileage and the early teens MPG. It is a beauty tho and eats miles like nothing else, we have all fallen in love with it a little.That is surely a huge bargain for a Range Rover of that age? Why so cheap? I still think these are bloody nice cars and yours is the version of the L322 which I think look best - the later, final facelift was a retrograde step to my eyes.
The Benchmarking track Day! And what an eventful day it was!
So on the 15th of December we took the range racer to Bedford autodrome for some benchmarking in completely standard form.
During the driver brief we were told it’s the hardest circuit in the UK for brakes……whoops!
Anyway, we got some good track time in the morning, and learnt lots about the range…..mainly, she rolls, my god she rolls! Under steers a lot at the limit. Power is great, makes you think the car isn’t as heavy as it is..…..until you need to brake that is. Ryan even managed an overtake!
We did start to get some issues with engine derate or limp mode when pushing hard. Google seems to think this is a supercharger overheat issue caused by cars being built with the SC cooling pump with the wiring the wrong way round. Shortly after the limp mode we got an engine warning light which signalled the end of our day…….
On the way back round the the pits we were then black flagged! we were greeted by the guy in charge who told us that we exceed track height limits!!!!! 1900mm vs a 1850 limit (shouldn’t be no problem to sort for future). Rather amusing really that there is a limit at all.
We think they were just a little worried by how much we were rolling, it didn’t look that safe to be fair!
(Edit to comply with posting rules)
So on the 15th of December we took the range racer to Bedford autodrome for some benchmarking in completely standard form.
During the driver brief we were told it’s the hardest circuit in the UK for brakes……whoops!
Anyway, we got some good track time in the morning, and learnt lots about the range…..mainly, she rolls, my god she rolls! Under steers a lot at the limit. Power is great, makes you think the car isn’t as heavy as it is..…..until you need to brake that is. Ryan even managed an overtake!
We did start to get some issues with engine derate or limp mode when pushing hard. Google seems to think this is a supercharger overheat issue caused by cars being built with the SC cooling pump with the wiring the wrong way round. Shortly after the limp mode we got an engine warning light which signalled the end of our day…….
On the way back round the the pits we were then black flagged! we were greeted by the guy in charge who told us that we exceed track height limits!!!!! 1900mm vs a 1850 limit (shouldn’t be no problem to sort for future). Rather amusing really that there is a limit at all.
We think they were just a little worried by how much we were rolling, it didn’t look that safe to be fair!
(Edit to comply with posting rules)
Edited by Scrump on Saturday 5th January 17:16
Edited by charlie-5mkmt on Saturday 5th January 17:20
Thanks for all the support & encouragement so far chaps! Im sure we will need your advice and help soon!
We have new wheels and tyres!
HUGEEEE BMW X5 Wheels and tyres are perfect for what we need. 315/35 R 20 11J rears and 275/40 R20s 10J fronts. 60mm a side wider on the rear!
Lots of benefits for us:
Match Land Rover stud paten
Fit fine within axles & body etc (lucky we work in the right place to check all these things before buying)
Smaller OD lowers our gearing by 4.6% which should help loads with acceleration
Smaller OD also lowers the car by 17mm
Smaller side walls should help with roll
Much more tyre choice available on these sizes. (can even get R888R’s, all be it at a slightly smaller OD.)
A bargain at £400 a set with loads of tyre left.
While changing them, we have found some sort of jacking mode where the car lowers itself well below access height, gives us a good idea of what it will look like once finished!
Impressions so far are good, the faster acceleration is noticeable, its quite childishly funny how fast this boat picks up speed. Yet to test it with any anger though any corners, need to fix that roll first!
We have new wheels and tyres!
HUGEEEE BMW X5 Wheels and tyres are perfect for what we need. 315/35 R 20 11J rears and 275/40 R20s 10J fronts. 60mm a side wider on the rear!
Lots of benefits for us:
Match Land Rover stud paten
Fit fine within axles & body etc (lucky we work in the right place to check all these things before buying)
Smaller OD lowers our gearing by 4.6% which should help loads with acceleration
Smaller OD also lowers the car by 17mm
Smaller side walls should help with roll
Much more tyre choice available on these sizes. (can even get R888R’s, all be it at a slightly smaller OD.)
A bargain at £400 a set with loads of tyre left.
While changing them, we have found some sort of jacking mode where the car lowers itself well below access height, gives us a good idea of what it will look like once finished!
Impressions so far are good, the faster acceleration is noticeable, its quite childishly funny how fast this boat picks up speed. Yet to test it with any anger though any corners, need to fix that roll first!
As you asked so nicely…..Weight!
Our biggest challenge for sure!
Again benefiting from where we work, we have managed to find a full parts & weight list for the car (minus a couple of options).
The current weight breakdown is as follows:
Body – 906.8kg
Cabin – 348.7kg
Powertrain – 671.5kg
Chassis – 568kg
Electrical – 110.8kg
We then have gone though the complete list, crossing out everything we don’t think we need.
Remove all interior
Remove sunroof
Remove side steps and tow bar
Perspex windows
Remove window motors etc
Add bucket seats and harness & smaller steering wheel.
Summary is we can get down to 2000kg which would put us in the 200bph per ton club, with such company as RS3s, golf R’s and caymen S’s. We will take that!
There is a further 100kg not on the list below to be had if we later decide to go RWD by removing front drive shafts and transfer box etc.
Lots of stuff to remove and sell!
Our biggest challenge for sure!
Again benefiting from where we work, we have managed to find a full parts & weight list for the car (minus a couple of options).
The current weight breakdown is as follows:
Body – 906.8kg
Cabin – 348.7kg
Powertrain – 671.5kg
Chassis – 568kg
Electrical – 110.8kg
We then have gone though the complete list, crossing out everything we don’t think we need.
Remove all interior
Remove sunroof
Remove side steps and tow bar
Perspex windows
Remove window motors etc
Add bucket seats and harness & smaller steering wheel.
Summary is we can get down to 2000kg which would put us in the 200bph per ton club, with such company as RS3s, golf R’s and caymen S’s. We will take that!
There is a further 100kg not on the list below to be had if we later decide to go RWD by removing front drive shafts and transfer box etc.
Lots of stuff to remove and sell!
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
A £300 remap should see you to 450+bhp, would you entertain the power route, as well as 'adding in' lightness?
Interesting stuff! We certainly plan on exploring some power upgrades once we run out of things to unbolt.... We have seen some Jag XKRs (same engine) with power knocking on the door of 500bph.we will need some of that to achieve our ultimate dream goal.....to de-throne the Range Rover Sport SVR at the ring!
Max_Torque said:
I hope you're including the addition of around 60 kg for a decent roll cage.....
This is odds on likely to end up shiny side down in the gravel imo! Trust me, it's a horrible feeling skipping sideways across the kerbs and gravel, even in something like a Caterham, let alone a soggy tall 4by, hoping it doesn't dig in and flip! I'd also advocate making sure you keep the throttle pinned, and not braking if you do find yourself in the kitty litter.............
Your right, physics really isn't on our side with this one.... we have lined up a close friend whos a talented welder to make something up for us.This is odds on likely to end up shiny side down in the gravel imo! Trust me, it's a horrible feeling skipping sideways across the kerbs and gravel, even in something like a Caterham, let alone a soggy tall 4by, hoping it doesn't dig in and flip! I'd also advocate making sure you keep the throttle pinned, and not braking if you do find yourself in the kitty litter.............
At least if we do end up in the gravel, we have more chance of getting out than most. The 4WD & low range box might be useful after all!
Turn7 said:
Surely dumping the tfx box and front axle are cheap performance gains ?
In theory yes! 100kg save and all front the front end.Sadly land rover isn't famous for its electronics, so we want to make sure its not going to cause massive stability control & gearbox ECU issues before we rip it out. We shall get talking to our colleagues in powertrain and electrical engineering.
itsallyellow said:
Yes road legal and capable of off road racing with a few minor changes.
Build thread was on here not so long ago
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=17...
Mike
THIS IS EPIC! Just had a quick look though it, love what you have done. we will certainly let you know when we are heading back to the track (hopefully it wont be too far away).Build thread was on here not so long ago
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=17...
Mike
Lowering...
Had a successful day today, and achieved all the lowering we could dream of.
In standard form the car has 4 height heights
Access = -40mm = Lifts to standard above 30mph
Speed lowered = -20 (i think) = only happens after going over 60mph for a set amount of time
Standard
off road = +60mm = lowers to standard over 30mph
We found some adjustable height sensor links online that trick the car into thinking its higher than it is.
Adjusted these to 5mm shorter which results in aprox 35mm drop in all ride height conditions...result!
So are new heights are (deltas from standard height out of the factory)
Access = -75mm
Standard = -35mm
Off road = +5mm
Now just the problem of stoping the car lifting and lowering by itself when going over speed thresholds! Tried disconnecting the fuse but it didnt stop it, but the relay in the book worked a treat! We can now set the height we want, pull the relay, and hey presto! It stays how it is! My intent is to link this relay to a switch on the dash soon so we can do it quickly whenever required!
So we can now simply drive to the track in off road mode with the relay disconnected (in ultimate comfort), then switch the relay back on, drop the car to access then switch it back off again, and we are track ready! (a little like a budget ford GT40)
So whats it like in this new -75mm access mode?
COMPLETELY different! Well its now sitting on its spring aids so its super stiff compared to what it was before. Roll has almost completely disappeared (due to the stiffness and lower CoG) but its clearly now massively under damped, very bouncy over bumps. And the understeer is much more obvious now! Likely just because its a lot more confidence inspiring into corners.
Anyway, all in all im really happy with how it is, didn't expect the amount of roll reduction its given!
Its also worth noting that i really wouldn't recommend this amount of ride height reduction! We have lost half the suspension travel in bump, if you were driving like this all the time you will brake something. We have convinced ourselves its "OK" because we can still drive around at a normal height height on the roads, and we shouldn't be hitting too many speed bumps or pot holes on track when its in access mode!
Had a successful day today, and achieved all the lowering we could dream of.
In standard form the car has 4 height heights
Access = -40mm = Lifts to standard above 30mph
Speed lowered = -20 (i think) = only happens after going over 60mph for a set amount of time
Standard
off road = +60mm = lowers to standard over 30mph
We found some adjustable height sensor links online that trick the car into thinking its higher than it is.
Adjusted these to 5mm shorter which results in aprox 35mm drop in all ride height conditions...result!
So are new heights are (deltas from standard height out of the factory)
Access = -75mm
Standard = -35mm
Off road = +5mm
Now just the problem of stoping the car lifting and lowering by itself when going over speed thresholds! Tried disconnecting the fuse but it didnt stop it, but the relay in the book worked a treat! We can now set the height we want, pull the relay, and hey presto! It stays how it is! My intent is to link this relay to a switch on the dash soon so we can do it quickly whenever required!
So we can now simply drive to the track in off road mode with the relay disconnected (in ultimate comfort), then switch the relay back on, drop the car to access then switch it back off again, and we are track ready! (a little like a budget ford GT40)
So whats it like in this new -75mm access mode?
COMPLETELY different! Well its now sitting on its spring aids so its super stiff compared to what it was before. Roll has almost completely disappeared (due to the stiffness and lower CoG) but its clearly now massively under damped, very bouncy over bumps. And the understeer is much more obvious now! Likely just because its a lot more confidence inspiring into corners.
Anyway, all in all im really happy with how it is, didn't expect the amount of roll reduction its given!
Its also worth noting that i really wouldn't recommend this amount of ride height reduction! We have lost half the suspension travel in bump, if you were driving like this all the time you will brake something. We have convinced ourselves its "OK" because we can still drive around at a normal height height on the roads, and we shouldn't be hitting too many speed bumps or pot holes on track when its in access mode!
Thanks again for all the supportive words, we really didn't expect this much interest!
Quick round up of our thoughts
Supercharger - agreed, working out a way of keeping this cool is going to be a priority before we start looking at chasing power.
Camber - yep there is a fair amount of bump camber as a result of the lowering. Time will tell if this is a good thing to way too much. I'm sure at some point soon we will look more carefully into exactly what the camber is when 75mm into bump.
Body panels - Interesting point, not something we have looked into yet. I'm sure there will be some big gains to be had here. The bonnet especially is hugeeeee, if we were to produce a fiberglass one, we could add some vents to help cool that engine too...:P
Our Ancestors - it's great to hear there are people before us. Makes us feel a little less insane! It really is amazing what projects found in the depths of the Internet.
Thanks again for your inputs and comments, really is helpful.
Our next step is to track down some bucket seats and bmw seat brackets. Turns out the seat bolts are the same distance apart as the e46 & e36 3 series (benefits of the range being designed during the BMW ownership days)
Quick round up of our thoughts
Supercharger - agreed, working out a way of keeping this cool is going to be a priority before we start looking at chasing power.
Camber - yep there is a fair amount of bump camber as a result of the lowering. Time will tell if this is a good thing to way too much. I'm sure at some point soon we will look more carefully into exactly what the camber is when 75mm into bump.
Body panels - Interesting point, not something we have looked into yet. I'm sure there will be some big gains to be had here. The bonnet especially is hugeeeee, if we were to produce a fiberglass one, we could add some vents to help cool that engine too...:P
Our Ancestors - it's great to hear there are people before us. Makes us feel a little less insane! It really is amazing what projects found in the depths of the Internet.
Thanks again for your inputs and comments, really is helpful.
Our next step is to track down some bucket seats and bmw seat brackets. Turns out the seat bolts are the same distance apart as the e46 & e36 3 series (benefits of the range being designed during the BMW ownership days)
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