Triumph Herald 13 60 - Loud and rusty
Discussion
Crushingly bored so thought I'd post my car! Been building it for the past 6 months, previously bought as an unfinished project that was mostly standard but had a non-running 1500 spitfire engine in.
Put a 1300 mk4 spitfire engine (from a wrecked spitfire) in just before lock down, phew!
The previous owner (nice chap called Mike) had refurbed the chassis, refreshed the solid parts of the suspension, new brake lines in too, electrics mostly done too.
Paint is original in places, tatty all over and touched up. I like it, plan is to keep it ratty and I'll be clear coating it with rattle cans once the weather is more consistent. No rust where it matters.
I like old cars covered in stickers, so I covered it in stickers.
Things I've done since having it (well, with help from 2 friends)!
GAZ dampers on the rear plus a inch lowering block. Spring is standard, considering a stiffer spring, we'll see. Front are GAZ fully adjustable coilovers.
Drilled grooved brakes, mintex pads, replaced braided lines and new fluid.
Weller steel wheels (13 inch) off an old formula ford, 2 inches deeper/wider at back. Painted bronze.
1300 mk4 spitfire engine (large crank), is what was available from wreckers. Twin SU HS4 carbs with bigger jets. Not necessarily the right jets but it now works!
421 stainless exhaust manifold, into jetex silencer then straight 2 inch pipe to a cherry bomb tail pipe. It's loud and brilliant and my neighbours despise me.
New plugs, new distributor and leads, electronic coil and new wiring.
Alloy radiator, twin fans, new water and fuel piping.
Engine probably puts out about 80bhp, plan is to do a bit of head work (port/polish/skim 30 thou) and slightly lairier Street cam. 100hp would be nice.
It weights around 820kg according to stats, so it's good fun even though its slow.
Inside I got a half cage fitted, fia/msa approved. Done by Caged Laser Engineering, amazing job and really good to work with (great customer service, very patient with my annoying questions). Powder coated orange.
Safety Devices harnesses 4 point.
Red modern seat belts also fitted for when I can't be arsed with harnesses.
Putting interior back in so it's less rattly.
12 inch sub and 600w amp in boot, hidden Bluetooth stereo under-dash.
Finally got it running yesterday, plan is to take it for the weekly shop on Saturday! Final safety checks tomorrow...
It doesn't go particularly fast, but it feels and sounds fast and that's what I care about! It's 50 years old lol.
I've a brief video of the noise that I'll post. Here are some pics! Cheers!
Bought it so I could learn to do more wrenching myself, so easy to get access to everything so very little electronics for me to get wrong.
Plan was to start doing sprints and hill climbs although that's been paused due to current climate... Hope you like it, be gentle it's my first proper project!
Edit: front seats are out of an mgf, originally grey alcantara middle but dyed them black-ish. Tight fit but they're in and are adjustable!
Put a 1300 mk4 spitfire engine (from a wrecked spitfire) in just before lock down, phew!
The previous owner (nice chap called Mike) had refurbed the chassis, refreshed the solid parts of the suspension, new brake lines in too, electrics mostly done too.
Paint is original in places, tatty all over and touched up. I like it, plan is to keep it ratty and I'll be clear coating it with rattle cans once the weather is more consistent. No rust where it matters.
I like old cars covered in stickers, so I covered it in stickers.
Things I've done since having it (well, with help from 2 friends)!
GAZ dampers on the rear plus a inch lowering block. Spring is standard, considering a stiffer spring, we'll see. Front are GAZ fully adjustable coilovers.
Drilled grooved brakes, mintex pads, replaced braided lines and new fluid.
Weller steel wheels (13 inch) off an old formula ford, 2 inches deeper/wider at back. Painted bronze.
1300 mk4 spitfire engine (large crank), is what was available from wreckers. Twin SU HS4 carbs with bigger jets. Not necessarily the right jets but it now works!
421 stainless exhaust manifold, into jetex silencer then straight 2 inch pipe to a cherry bomb tail pipe. It's loud and brilliant and my neighbours despise me.
New plugs, new distributor and leads, electronic coil and new wiring.
Alloy radiator, twin fans, new water and fuel piping.
Engine probably puts out about 80bhp, plan is to do a bit of head work (port/polish/skim 30 thou) and slightly lairier Street cam. 100hp would be nice.
It weights around 820kg according to stats, so it's good fun even though its slow.
Inside I got a half cage fitted, fia/msa approved. Done by Caged Laser Engineering, amazing job and really good to work with (great customer service, very patient with my annoying questions). Powder coated orange.
Safety Devices harnesses 4 point.
Red modern seat belts also fitted for when I can't be arsed with harnesses.
Putting interior back in so it's less rattly.
12 inch sub and 600w amp in boot, hidden Bluetooth stereo under-dash.
Finally got it running yesterday, plan is to take it for the weekly shop on Saturday! Final safety checks tomorrow...
It doesn't go particularly fast, but it feels and sounds fast and that's what I care about! It's 50 years old lol.
I've a brief video of the noise that I'll post. Here are some pics! Cheers!
Bought it so I could learn to do more wrenching myself, so easy to get access to everything so very little electronics for me to get wrong.
Plan was to start doing sprints and hill climbs although that's been paused due to current climate... Hope you like it, be gentle it's my first proper project!
Edit: front seats are out of an mgf, originally grey alcantara middle but dyed them black-ish. Tight fit but they're in and are adjustable!
Edited by jiggawhat2k on Thursday 9th April 16:57
Konrod said:
I like that! looks like a whole load of fun, although it also looks as if you're living in it, judging by the passenger seat.
Any problems with wheels hitting arches running that low?
Rather than spend money of the four, you could consider a six................
Haha I had all the tools and spares in it at the time, a true rolling restoration... Lucky I did, its been broken down multiple times and I've had everything I need to get it going again eventually. Any problems with wheels hitting arches running that low?
Rather than spend money of the four, you could consider a six................
Had to whack the inner rim of the arches on all 4 corners but no other modification, originally it did rub so I got lower profile tyres as a solution.
Ah yes a six, the dream. Maybe in phase 2!
carinaman said:
I like a lot of that. There was one in the family once that I think I did at least one long journey in.
The Triumph sounds great to my ears, as does the XK six, but there has to be advantages for the smaller, lighter Spitfire IV engine.
Thanks. Agree, main benefit to 4 cylinder is availability and cost, the engine in there now was £200 plus some new hoses, 6 cylinder engines are rarer so more expensive. The Triumph sounds great to my ears, as does the XK six, but there has to be advantages for the smaller, lighter Spitfire IV engine.
Also reckon there is a handling advantage to a bit less weight up front.
The six though, what a noise...
lockhart flawse said:
Great motor. Please keep the thread updated as you develop it.
Might be my eyes but the back exhaust box doesn't really go with the rest of the car does it?
Cheers will try to keep up to date. Might be my eyes but the back exhaust box doesn't really go with the rest of the car does it?
Totally agree, always wanted a cherrybomb so I bought one! Have grown to love the obnoxious noise, the rest of the car isn't subtle so I'm OK with a ridiculous back box sticking out the back lol
vx220 said:
Wow, IMHO that is the best looking car on PH for a long time!!!
Not too shiny with the clearcoat!
I'm sure they would love to see it on Retro Rides forum...
Thanks very much! Not too shiny with the clearcoat!
I'm sure they would love to see it on Retro Rides forum...
No shiny finish don't worry, going for a matt clear coat finish after I've done a round of light sanding on the flaky bits.
5harp3y said:
it looks so pissed off
i love the idea of one of these with modern running gear (ala Urchfab )
Haha you're right it does, not really noticed before! i love the idea of one of these with modern running gear (ala Urchfab )
A few of the triumph chaps put mx5 engines in which I reckon makes good sense (turbo!!). If I drove it a lot of miles I'd consider it for sure but I do love the noise of old carbs, you can literally hear your precious fuel flying into the engine and exploding.
One guy has even put a rotary in a spitfire, that would be pretty wild...
Did a couple of jobs today, both very satisfying but maybe not super exciting to look at...
The chaps at tssc confirmed that I had my twin carb trumpets upside down. Stupid mistake as it means my non standard trumpets were covering 2 carb breather holes that ensure things run smoothly. With them covered, the mix would be all over and generally would run rich.
It was running like a dog for the past couple of days after I took off trumpets to check idle, once swapped over it fired up, all running well again.
Also had an annoying job on the headlights that actually turned out to be good fun. The yellow Lucas covers on the lights, technically only for euro travel bug I think they look right all the time.
The elastic hooks that hold them in place we're starting to perish, they're original Lucas covers so they're 40+ years old so no wonder.
Bought elastic from the supermarket, riveted the elastic onto the existing clips, then reattached them. Nice and snug, and now I don't worry I'll lose a cover when I go out!
The old elastic
My pop rivet version
You have to take the headlight cover off to fit them, like most BL cars, most things are held on with a couple of screws!
And put back together! Now nice and straight and non-flappy
The chaps at tssc confirmed that I had my twin carb trumpets upside down. Stupid mistake as it means my non standard trumpets were covering 2 carb breather holes that ensure things run smoothly. With them covered, the mix would be all over and generally would run rich.
It was running like a dog for the past couple of days after I took off trumpets to check idle, once swapped over it fired up, all running well again.
Also had an annoying job on the headlights that actually turned out to be good fun. The yellow Lucas covers on the lights, technically only for euro travel bug I think they look right all the time.
The elastic hooks that hold them in place we're starting to perish, they're original Lucas covers so they're 40+ years old so no wonder.
Bought elastic from the supermarket, riveted the elastic onto the existing clips, then reattached them. Nice and snug, and now I don't worry I'll lose a cover when I go out!
The old elastic
My pop rivet version
You have to take the headlight cover off to fit them, like most BL cars, most things are held on with a couple of screws!
And put back together! Now nice and straight and non-flappy
Big Tomm said:
What a fantastically awesome car. I love the approach you’ve taken with it.
I have a MK2 Cooper on a F plate which is far from pristine, but it gets used in anger and I am not overly precious about it. This to me is far more enjoyable than having pristine paint and rivet counters giving it their nod of approval.
Was the herald not a popular “kit car” donor many years ago? If so I would suppose there has been a decline in numbers?
Cheers very much! I have a MK2 Cooper on a F plate which is far from pristine, but it gets used in anger and I am not overly precious about it. This to me is far more enjoyable than having pristine paint and rivet counters giving it their nod of approval.
Was the herald not a popular “kit car” donor many years ago? If so I would suppose there has been a decline in numbers?
Love a mini, glad it gets used. There's a place for the pristine paint I think, but defo not as fun as giving it hell! What colour? Any pics? Have been considering minis as a 2nd project.
Yep there are a good few kit cars based on them, although they're less common now. Think there about 1k heralds left in the UK, not sure how many of those are saloons tho.
Plenty more bits and bobs done today with the amazing weather.
Had a few neighbours complain when I tune it on the drive, they're not fans of the noise and fuel smell (fair enough, we're in a semi close to other houses).
Having some major cutting out when I apply the loud pedal, idles perfectly though.
Think it's dirt in the lines annoyingly, I ran the tank down to the very bottom twice due to a broken fuel gauge, that seems to be causing issues potentially.
Opened up the carbs and gave them a clean up.
Also decided to swap the SU carb needles while I'm in there, these needles alter the mix at idle, acceleration and top end and I still had needles in from the bigger engine that the carbs had previously been on.
Took out the needles in there, which are code AAR, not yet sure how much fuel these deliver but they were put in to dump more fuel in for a 1500 so probably are a bit much for the 1300.
Put in a set of ADN needles I had laying around from the old setup to see what happens. If it doesn't like those then I also have some AAN needles (standard 1300 ones) as backup. Hard to know what the right ones are until you find them!!
Then needed to add oil to the carb damper but didn't have any specific carb damper oil so I mixed some 20w50 with a bit of wd40 to thin it out a bit and popped that in there.
Now time to put it together again. Gave it a little clean up while I'm in there.
Fired it up and gave it a little rev, started first time and seems OK but needs a proper run. Didn't break the carbs at least!
The fuel filter that is in line just before the carbs is full of grot and actually is broken, so some fuel can get around the filter. Potentially this is what is causing the rougher running up top so another has been ordered. I took the fuel lines off and gave them a blast with penetrant and blew them out, hopefully clear now. Next time I'll check the fuel pump too, give it a clean up.
One of the arch liners (which is sheet metal and original) has come away from the arch so I riveted them back together.
The rev counter had stopped working, turned out to be a not well attached power lead, so I fixed that and all working again.
I've the rev counter by my right knee in a little cluster, originally I was trying to not have gauges on top of the dash but having revs so low is annoying. Have bought an old Smiths tacho that looks lovely (from a spitfire) and I'll find a way to fit that so I can see it more easily, probably right in the middle above the dash...
Had a fuse blow for the 2 front rad fans due to the fan belt cutting through their power. I bodged it short term so I could use it, but wanted it fixed. Now fixed and running fuses once more!
Last job was some chrome trim on the front indicators, clear ones too, 90s Ford style. I found some brand new ones in the box of spares in the shed that came with the car, someone must have been shopping around as one had come from an old market (still with old sticker) and the other came from somewhere totally different.
Old ones are tatty, I like rough paint with good chrome so I swapped them over. Nice and quick, 2 screws per light surround, each screw was different lol.
The lenses are glass, like actual old glass, thought they were plastic so that was cool to see/feel. New ones done.
I've also bought the accelerator pedal from a spitfire, the Herald accelerator is comical. Literally a flat plank with the cable directly attached to the top. Previously I had a spitfire and preferred the pedal, so I'm gonna see if I can fit it.
If I'm clever then I can also get the gas pedal closer to the brake to allow some heal-toe (not possible on my old spitfire or on thd Herald as it currently stands).
Not yet fitted but it'll look something like this -
Had a few neighbours complain when I tune it on the drive, they're not fans of the noise and fuel smell (fair enough, we're in a semi close to other houses).
Having some major cutting out when I apply the loud pedal, idles perfectly though.
Think it's dirt in the lines annoyingly, I ran the tank down to the very bottom twice due to a broken fuel gauge, that seems to be causing issues potentially.
Opened up the carbs and gave them a clean up.
Also decided to swap the SU carb needles while I'm in there, these needles alter the mix at idle, acceleration and top end and I still had needles in from the bigger engine that the carbs had previously been on.
Took out the needles in there, which are code AAR, not yet sure how much fuel these deliver but they were put in to dump more fuel in for a 1500 so probably are a bit much for the 1300.
Put in a set of ADN needles I had laying around from the old setup to see what happens. If it doesn't like those then I also have some AAN needles (standard 1300 ones) as backup. Hard to know what the right ones are until you find them!!
Then needed to add oil to the carb damper but didn't have any specific carb damper oil so I mixed some 20w50 with a bit of wd40 to thin it out a bit and popped that in there.
Now time to put it together again. Gave it a little clean up while I'm in there.
Fired it up and gave it a little rev, started first time and seems OK but needs a proper run. Didn't break the carbs at least!
The fuel filter that is in line just before the carbs is full of grot and actually is broken, so some fuel can get around the filter. Potentially this is what is causing the rougher running up top so another has been ordered. I took the fuel lines off and gave them a blast with penetrant and blew them out, hopefully clear now. Next time I'll check the fuel pump too, give it a clean up.
One of the arch liners (which is sheet metal and original) has come away from the arch so I riveted them back together.
The rev counter had stopped working, turned out to be a not well attached power lead, so I fixed that and all working again.
I've the rev counter by my right knee in a little cluster, originally I was trying to not have gauges on top of the dash but having revs so low is annoying. Have bought an old Smiths tacho that looks lovely (from a spitfire) and I'll find a way to fit that so I can see it more easily, probably right in the middle above the dash...
Had a fuse blow for the 2 front rad fans due to the fan belt cutting through their power. I bodged it short term so I could use it, but wanted it fixed. Now fixed and running fuses once more!
Last job was some chrome trim on the front indicators, clear ones too, 90s Ford style. I found some brand new ones in the box of spares in the shed that came with the car, someone must have been shopping around as one had come from an old market (still with old sticker) and the other came from somewhere totally different.
Old ones are tatty, I like rough paint with good chrome so I swapped them over. Nice and quick, 2 screws per light surround, each screw was different lol.
The lenses are glass, like actual old glass, thought they were plastic so that was cool to see/feel. New ones done.
I've also bought the accelerator pedal from a spitfire, the Herald accelerator is comical. Literally a flat plank with the cable directly attached to the top. Previously I had a spitfire and preferred the pedal, so I'm gonna see if I can fit it.
If I'm clever then I can also get the gas pedal closer to the brake to allow some heal-toe (not possible on my old spitfire or on thd Herald as it currently stands).
Not yet fitted but it'll look something like this -
witko999 said:
I'd reccommend putting proper air filters on it. Those strainer type generally do a crap job of filtering anything and also apparently often lose a chunk of power.
Interesting point. I got them cos they look awesome, maybe they're not the best though. I do have a proper filter. Will investigate cheersPaul S4 said:
Nice write up.
I had a Wedgewood Blue 13/60 convertible as my main car after I finished Dundee Uni. Bought it from a pal.
I then bought an additional white 13/60 convertible that was an MOT failure due to the rusty out riggers. Managed to take all the good bits from the spare one and made a decent blue one: the bonnet alone was worth more that I paid for the white car ( £48 IIRC but that had some road tax to cash so quite a bargain at the time in 1981 !)
It had cross ply tyres on when I bought the blue one...not very much grip with those on !
Couple of thoughts :
Those yellow headlight covers may cause you a few issues as they convert the beam onto the wrong side of the road...but you probably know that !
And IIRC there was a conversion for the rear leaf spring that runs transversely across the axle; I think is was convex/concave ....one or the other anyway !!
Apparently Heralds have a tendency to tuck the outer rear wheel under the car when cornering in extremis, and IIRC the modified spring was supposed to counteract this.
Not sure if I got all that correct, but it was a long time ago ... so do not quote me !!
Much later on I ran a Lotus Elan DHC, which had a lot of Triumph Herald/Spitfire bits: front suspension, steering rack ( but the Elan had a lock limit on for safety reasons), steering column/ wiper & indicator stalks, cooling system etc etc.
In fact, mine was a 1970 S4 Elan, and because Triumph fitted a smaller radiator to the 13/60 as compared to the previous 1250 Herald, my Stromberg engine was always on the limit cooling wise. I eventually sourced a Spitfire rad that I fitted with some difficulty, but at least the car ran much cooler !
By the way, I am sure that you are aware, but on the Lotus the lower front trunnions had to be lubricated with gear oil ( not grease) as part of regular maintenance.
Keep up the good work and the photos !
Cheers very much! Love hearing other people's herald stories!I had a Wedgewood Blue 13/60 convertible as my main car after I finished Dundee Uni. Bought it from a pal.
I then bought an additional white 13/60 convertible that was an MOT failure due to the rusty out riggers. Managed to take all the good bits from the spare one and made a decent blue one: the bonnet alone was worth more that I paid for the white car ( £48 IIRC but that had some road tax to cash so quite a bargain at the time in 1981 !)
It had cross ply tyres on when I bought the blue one...not very much grip with those on !
Couple of thoughts :
Those yellow headlight covers may cause you a few issues as they convert the beam onto the wrong side of the road...but you probably know that !
And IIRC there was a conversion for the rear leaf spring that runs transversely across the axle; I think is was convex/concave ....one or the other anyway !!
Apparently Heralds have a tendency to tuck the outer rear wheel under the car when cornering in extremis, and IIRC the modified spring was supposed to counteract this.
Not sure if I got all that correct, but it was a long time ago ... so do not quote me !!
Much later on I ran a Lotus Elan DHC, which had a lot of Triumph Herald/Spitfire bits: front suspension, steering rack ( but the Elan had a lock limit on for safety reasons), steering column/ wiper & indicator stalks, cooling system etc etc.
In fact, mine was a 1970 S4 Elan, and because Triumph fitted a smaller radiator to the 13/60 as compared to the previous 1250 Herald, my Stromberg engine was always on the limit cooling wise. I eventually sourced a Spitfire rad that I fitted with some difficulty, but at least the car ran much cooler !
By the way, I am sure that you are aware, but on the Lotus the lower front trunnions had to be lubricated with gear oil ( not grease) as part of regular maintenance.
Keep up the good work and the photos !
I ran a spitfire on old tyres, big cross ply but agree it can be hairy despite not loads of power.
Yep aware of the tuck, some seem to worry about it more than others. Slamming it to the floor will help, I used a 1 inch lowering block and extended studs where the diff attaches to the spring (used block studs, suggestion from the tssc bunch).
Was looking at a camber compensator but they're hard to get and make it even lower, don't think it would clear the exhaust as it currently sits.
Cheers!
Edit: aware the yellow lights are a bit dodge but I've never driven it at night yet and I think they look cool so gonna run them for now!
JimPD said:
Love these.
I had a Mk1 Vitesse while at Uni. Also Wedgewood blue. Bought from a mate £300.
Adding to PaulS4's thoughts:
If you lock up going into a corner, they can go 'full-lock' ripping the steering wheel out of your hands. Skid marks not just on the road!
Never had the 'wheel tuck' thing but was aware of the possibility so knew to never push it too far.
Great memories unbolting and removing the roof (7 bolts to undo) for a drive out in summer sunshine.
Used to leave the roof in the carpark to save my space.
Ha, my dad had a herald and tore the front axel clean off when he went full lock, mounting points had rusted to dust. I had a Mk1 Vitesse while at Uni. Also Wedgewood blue. Bought from a mate £300.
Adding to PaulS4's thoughts:
If you lock up going into a corner, they can go 'full-lock' ripping the steering wheel out of your hands. Skid marks not just on the road!
Never had the 'wheel tuck' thing but was aware of the possibility so knew to never push it too far.
Great memories unbolting and removing the roof (7 bolts to undo) for a drive out in summer sunshine.
Used to leave the roof in the carpark to save my space.
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