Jaguar F-Pace Non Runner

[Escy]

I thought I'd post this up, the engine is broken so it could be interesting.

I've just bought a 2016 Jaguar F-Pace R Sport. It's a 2.0 diesel. It's done 112k and looks in decent condition. It's dirty in the photos, it broke down, was towed back, the seller took a photo in the dark and put it on Facebook marketplace. I went to buy it the next day. I was looking for a new family car so this should be perfect. I've paid 8k for this which I feel is good (providing it doesn't cost me a fortune to fix), this age and mileage seems to be advertised at around 13-14k.

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It's a bit dirty inside but it seems in good condition and a decent spec. It has a pan roof which opens, two tone leather which I think is an R Sport thing, the widescreen sat nav, xenon lights. One odd thing, the front seats are manual adjust but the rear seats are electric reclining. It's the first car I've owned that allows you to stream music via bluetooth without needing to mess about adding in hardware.

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Someone spilt some paint in the rear so I might need to go to someone to get that sorted out.

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The story with this car is the first owner had it until this November, they blew the turbo which caused more damage. It's all second hand info (so some of it might not make sense) but he was quoted 12k by Jaguar for a new engine. He sold it for 4.6k to the guy I bought it off which is crazy cheap, I wish I'd found it then!

The guy I bought it off thought it needed a turbo, as the car was cheap and he wanted it for himself, he went to Jaguar for it. I've got an invoice for £1000. On further investigation the engine was damaged, he said it suffered from bore wash. He ended up getting oversized pistons, the block has cylinder liners, one was replaced and then all 4 were bored out. This was done at a local engine specialist and cost him a fair bit. He changed the main and big end bearings whilst he was in there. He fitted all new chains. He had the injectors tested also. He spent quite a lot of money doing all this.

He had a few local trips and it was fine, then he said he was using it on the motorway, driving it hard as he was late for something. Heard a knocking, the oil light came on and then the engine seized. He thinks it's spun a big end bearing. When I went to see it, it wasn't seized, it did start up. He's not got time to do it again so he put it straight up for sale.

This is where I come in. The plan is to pull the engine out, strip it apart and see what's what. In an ideal world I'd have wanted to be the first person to be working on it, it could be a real can of worms re-tracing someone else's work, especially on an engine I'm not familiar with. The good thing is, he's spent a load of money on new parts, the pistons and bores should be good, I can re-use the chains, etc.

The concern is, did he miss something? Is the reason it died before the same reason it died now? Could fix it and find myself back to square one all over again? I'm going to check the DPF, I saw a video on one of these engines in an Evoque that had a blocked DPF which seemed to cause a rod knock. I've seen a blocked DPF take the turbo out before so possibly the root cause of the original failure. Also, if it suffered bore wash, maybe that was due to the engine over fuelling to try and force a re-gen on the DPF. The rods weren't changed, maybe one is slightly bent. Maybe it just span a bearing because he was booting it without running it in?

A picture of the engine as it is, it should all come apart quite easily as it's just been put together.

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I'm quite excited by this one. First up is to pull the engine.

[Escy]

I wish! This will be used by my wife so I need something decent on fuel. Currently we have 3 cars, my Boxster that's pretty much an ornament, then the main cars are a Cayenne S that rarely gets used as I walk to work and a Mini Clubman 1.6d which the wife uses. The Cayenne and Mini will make way for the Jag and I'll use my Boxster more which is something I want to do.

I love the Cayenne, it's really useful and a nice drive but it's so juicy on fuel I tend to use it sparingly. As an example I'm going to my parents at Christmas who live in Cornwall. If I take the Cayenne it'll cost me over £100 extra in fuel compared to the Mini. I guess I'm tight, it just doesn't seem like a good use of my money.

I also love the Mini, it drives really well, always have a smile on m my face in that thing. It's a bit small for big trips, I'd keep it but it's a manual, my wife wants an automatic. I'm hoping the Jaguar is the perfect combination of both, economy closer to the Mini, practically closer to the Cayenne.

[Escy]

honest_delboy said:

Following with interest. Is there a readers ride thread on your Cayenne ?

I've got one here. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[Escy]

HairyMaclary said:

Some major alarm bells there and for 8k you are mental but I admire the size of your balls for they are much bigger than mine.

Good luck, will enjoy seeing how this painful journey pans out.

Can you not just drop in a recon engine?

A re-con engine is about £3500. I'm not planning of spending anywhere near that. If my crank won't take a grind, an aftermarket crank is £500, rods are £65 each and a set of bearings is £100. I'd like to think I can get it up and running for a grand. It depends what I find when I open it up.

[Escy]

It might be misplaced confidence.

The Boxster project is on it's third iteration. I'm hoping this thread is short and sweet and not a never ending saga like that one.

[Escy]

stevemcs said:

Have a llok at salvage rebuilds uk Evoque build with the Ingenium broken chain video. It will given you an idea what they look like in bits - Unless yours is the Ford engine.

It is the same engine and I did see that video, interesting. The video they did from the specialist replacing the chains will come in handy. They also had a Discovery Sport a year a go with a blocked DPF that seemed to develop a rod knock. I like their channel.

Court_S said:

Good luck OP; a braver man than me taking on a car someone else was unable to fix.

Will follow with interest though.

Yeah, I can't lie, my heart sank when he said he re-built it himself a week ago. I wanted it though.

littlebasher said:

Probably be more successful popping a used engine in there.

You can do the chain kit while its out of the car (chain is at gearbox end)

Usually that's what I'd do, especially on an engine that's failed twice, but they aren't about. I guess there is a lot of demand. The couple on eBay I have seen are the same sort of price you could get a re-con supplied and fitted for.

trails said:

Megaflow said:

You can't bore wash a diesel... Bore wash happens when an engine is running so rich that the excess fuel washes the oil coating of the cylinder walls. A diesel basically runs on oil, you can't wash oil off with oil.

Something about all this doesn't add up, for a modern engine to seize is rare, for the same car to do it twice is a big concern.

I was puzzled when I read the bore wash diagnosis too.

OP, do you think you could approach jaguar and find out the real history of the car, they would presumably have some sort of history if they had written off the engine and quoted to replace it?

Good luck

The seller described it as bore wash but you are right, not the right term. I found an interesting website describing the common engine issues - https://dieselheads.co.uk/our-engines/jaguar/jagua...

Talking about cylinder liner wear they say
We have identified this as insufficient lubrication in the pass-through of oil through the oil ring. This mixed with fuel injectors over-fuelling through emission control methods creates an environment through which the rings scrape the less hard iron based liners during piston travel.

That could be what happened which would tie into my blocked DPF theory.

I'll give Jaguar a call but I won't hold my breath, there is no paperwork for this visit. They might have not even seen it, a specialist did the last 2 services.

[Escy]

Blanco92 said:

Regular servicing helps massively and people who claim their JLR vehicles have been fully serviced by having 5 services in 100k miles are kidding themselves. JLR might say you can do 20k between services... doesn't mean you should.

Yeah, they don't help themselves with these schedules do they? This one has had 5 services in 112k miles, the last one was at 110k. The early ones were stretched a bit longer than they should be, it went 2 years and 25k miles between services at one point.

[Escy]

I made a start on getting the engine out on Sunday. It's not too bad to work on, a small engine in a decent size bay. First up I took the DPF off, I noticed something on the subframe

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It's a free ratchet. A ratchet being left on the subframe is probably a decent indicator for the quality of the last guys work (ignoring the more obvious blown engine). A bit slapdash. There's been plenty of brackets with bolts missing and wiring run the wrong way and not clipped in properly, none of it is critical stuff that would have lead to a failure but it's not good workmanship. I'll have a job on to put it back together nicely having not seen how it should be. On the plus side he copper greased stuff. I'm half expecting he's only fitted one conrod bolt on the one that's knocking.

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The DPF off. It looks a bit blocked up.

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I pulled the driveshafts, one CV boot is looking pretty manky. I'm not sure why they didn't sort that the last time it was out, I will be.

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I had an unfortunate breakage on the upright, had it all apart, was putting it back together after the driveshaft was removed, put a screwdriver in by hand to open it up and it just cracked off. I'm thinking maybe it was cracked previously with a really powerful impact gun.

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[Escy]

He paid for a cylinder liner to be fitted and all 4 to be rebored from an engine specialist. He then assembled it himself.

[Escy]

Magnum 475 said:

I think I'd be tempted to get along to Copart, find an identical spec car with FSH and no problems that's be arse-ended and written off, pull the engine from that.

This way you start with a known-good engine that you can perform a degree of rebuild on (new chains, tensioners, bearings etc), and install that. An engine that hasn't already had major issues is probably a better starting point.

My background involves, amongst other things, engines that run 2000 to 2400 tach hours between rebuilds. Rebuilds involve assorted tests looking for cracks and weaknesses, and it's amazing what gets found. From this experience, I tend to run away from engines that have already had significant mechanical failures, as it's not always obvious to what extent other components in the engine, that weren't part of the 'main' failure, have been damaged.

You're right, if it was a cheaper engine that's had 2 major failures there's no way I'd be messing around with it. The economics of it means I need to fix this engine and take my chances on long term reliability, it's not a feasible project any other way.

[Escy]

Decky_Q said:

Just wondering why you are going to remove the engine rather than remove the sump and get at con rods, crank and bearings from there? Is it just to tidy up or check previous work, or are you expecting something wrong with the liners that have been fitted?

If this was in my garage I'd have the sump off 5mins after it arrived and check all the crank shells to see was it a slip, blocked oilway or what before taking the engine out. As it started cold I'd think slipped crank bearing was very likely.

It's not an easy car to pull the sump off, it's got a diff bolted to the side of it and a driveshaft running through the middle of it. The way my garage is set up, it's easier to leave the subframe on and pull engines from the top, I then roll the car backwards out of the way.

Plus I know I'm going to need to have a good look over everything that's been done previously so figure get it out and go from there.

[Escy]

WBAC offered 11k (as a runner). Looking around, the cheapest on Auto trader with 20k more miles is 14k, I saw one on Facebook for 13.5k, that seems to be the bottom of the market. Neither are as nice spec as mine.

With that considered, I'm a bit shocked everyone seems to think I've paid too much, I could have taken it for a supplied and fitted 3.5k ebay refurb engine and it'd owe me 11.5k.

[Escy]

Yeah, there's always something else. I've bought plenty of non runners over the years, it's rare to find a car that's only got the one problem that you are buying it with. I once bought an Alfa 156 Selespeed with the cambelt snapped, fixed it only to discover the gearbox was playing up. I also bought an Alfa 147, (manual this time so I learnt a lesson), again snapped cambelt. Fixed it, went to drive it and no clutch. Turns out when the belt snapped they didn't take it out of gear and put the clutch in like any normal person would.

If the broken upright is the worst of it the unexpected issues I'll consider myself lucky.

[Escy]

I pulled the engine out last night. Usually I'd pull the whole front end off, lift the engine a bit and roll the car backwards out of the way. but the engine bay is quite roomy so my plan was to lift it up and slide it across on the roof beam out of the way.

It was a bit taller than it looked in the car once I'd lifted it clear.

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To try and make enough space I have to take the wheels off and lower it right down.

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Even then it was touch and go, there was only a few mm clearance from the wing.

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It's out.

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The Jag is a pretty big car so I've not got much space to work on this engine.

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[Escy]

They were sent off a few weeks ago by the previous owner for testing and they were OK. Saves me a job.

[Escy]

The rear crank seal was leaking, seems crazy he had it all apart and didn't change it, or if he did, he got it wrong.

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There's a special tool for the crankshaft seal which is quite expensive but I've seen what happens if you don't have it so I bought one. I also bought the correct timing tools for the engine.

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I pulled the sump off, there was bearing material in it. Cylinder number 4 is the one that's knocking.

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It's worn away the conrod cap, looks like he drove it for a while knocking, the bearing shells are totally gone.

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This is where I'm at now. I need to strip the engine further to check for any other damage, assuming there is not, there's are 2 options I'm thinking of, take it to a local engine builder and see if it can be re-ground or buy an aftermarket crankshaft, they are £450 (£630 with the bearings). A re-grind would be a few weeks as they are shut for Christmas which would slow my progress down.

Fixing the problem is one thing but knowing the cause and working out if it's related to the first failure is another. If anyone wants to chime in with theory's, please do. It's a different failure than last time. It could have been assembly error, he re-used the conrod bolts, one could have been out of spec and caused the failure. He could have been supplied the wrong size bearings and the tolerances were wrong.

[Escy]

Some good suggestions there which I'll be checking over. Thanks.

Megaflow said:

I know you said you had an invoice from Jag for the turbo, did you get one for the fitting the liners?

Because that liquid joint for the sump looks a little bit to factory applied to me, suggesting the engine has not been apart. Which would also explain the leaking main seal not being dealt with.

Yeah, I have an invoice for the bottom end. It's definately been apart, there is a plastic clip on the windage tray to hold a wire that was broken. I don't know what he's used on the mating services, it's been difficult to separate things. More like an adhesive than a silicone, it reminds me of Tiger Seal.

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[Escy]

Taking apart the rest of the bottom end. It's a mess. You can see the metal in the oil. There was pieces of bearing in the sump but the oil in general doesn't seem to be contaminated with metal in it, no sign of any behind the rear timing cover where the chains are. I haven't looked at the cams yet.

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Crank out, I think maybe I should get myself an engine stand.

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That's all the caps off. Every shell is damaged, it spun the big end shells on cylinder 1 and 3 as well.

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Looking at it, I thought it had been knocking for a while but speaking to the previous owner, he said he heard a knocking, within 20 seconds the oil light came on and the engine seized.

It's worse than I thought it would be. I need to strip the top end down and see how it is. The crank journal looks bad but it's bearing material fused to it's surface rather than chucks taken out of it.

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[Escy]

shalmaneser said:

That block is crap is it not? New crank + line boring + new Conrods at least?

I need to inspect it a bit more, I'm going to take the cams out, if the caps are in a similar state then I'll need to see about another engine.

I was expecting a replacement crank/repair and at least one rod anyway so this isn't too far from what I thought. I'll now need to replace all the rods but they aren't expensive and probably the oil pump which is expensive. I'll strip that down first.

None of the mains span a bearing and looking at the damage, the closer they are to the knocking rod the worse the wear. I wasn't going to get line boring done. Would that be a mistake?

[Escy]

lancer778544 said:

I'm not a million miles away from you (I don't think) Escy down in Cardiff and I've got one you can borrow for a while if you want?

That's a great offer, I'll send you an email.