1988 VW Caddy with McLaren 650S engine
Discussion
Hi all,
New to the forum here. Someone suggested I start a topic about this car over on this site!
My brother and I have been slowly working on a project for the past couple years, built almost entirely from outrageous ebay purchases.
We've built a few custom cars in that past but both fancied something turbo and mid engine so we started with a mk1 VW Caddy and then started the hunt for something unusual to put in the back.
We came across a badly fire damaged M838T from a 2015 650S and against our better judgement figured it was worth a go...
It required a lot of new parts (it had a lot of melted plastic on it) but many months of ebay searches and asking around some motorsport contacts we had a pretty good looking engine again.
We still didn't have any kind of wiring or engine management but after lots of research I ended up going with Haltech - their Nexus R5 unit suits us really well - dual DBW control and full PDM for engine and chassis. We've gone with their IC7 display and 15-button CAN keypad for all the display and control needs. They folks at Haltech are absolutely brilliant with support too.
We initially thought we could use an Audi A4 transaxle but when we considered the ~700hp we'll be putting out of the motor we started looking for more substantial options.
eBay to the rescue again - and another fire damaged car being broken for parts. This time an R8, the 6-speed manual from an early V8 model. The same transaxle from the Gallardo. Only minor damage from the fire (couple sensors melted and the oil cooler pipes - nothing too serious).
We sourced a clutch and flywheel from a Gallardo (weird trigger tooth pattern which was a bit of a headache later on) and designed a bellhousing adapter, and matching flywheel adapter to bolt it together.
We now had an engine and box mated and looked pretty good!
Next was what we do for mounting it, and the rear suspension.
One more donor sportscar was needed.... a 996. We used the rear suspension carriers and narrowed them slightly (not much was possible when the R8 transaxle is sat between them).
My brother then set about designing and building a 'subframe' to which it all mounts.
We needed to strengthen the chassis too and decided to build a cage. We've never built one before but bought a mandrel bender and a load of CDS tube and set about having a go. End result isn't too bad although there are bits we might do slightly different if we were to do it again. We wanted to keep the cage to within the confines of the outline of the bodyline at the rear - so no diagonal up from rear suspension, which is obviously sub optimal as far as cage design but we've taken it as high as we can and hopefully triangulated it sufficiently to give it enough strength. We added tubes through the sills too so it's almost a 'semi-spaceframe' built into the chassis.
The front end is where we're mounting the radiators, battery and fuel system (tank and pumps). For now the suspension is still mk1 Golf - albeit with Cupra discs and Porsche calipers but we think we might ultimately swap the front end out for mk4 platform parts which bring a few advantages (wider track, bigger brake options, power steering and relocated rack to allow pedals in cockpit to be extended further forwards).
We actually fired it up back in August (with the wiring harness roughed out, no coolant, no exhaust and no turbo plumbing!) just to prove out that it would actually work. The wiring was then removed and properly terminated and sleeved and is out of the car while we continue with the fabrication stuff
All my pictures are on my phone so will try and upload them to here somehow but I've actually just started an Instagram account which has a few pics on for now.
A few people have suggested doing some YouTube videos following the progress which I like the idea of trying, but I'm not much good in front of a camera. Or behind a camera. Or anywhere near a camera really... so might need a bit of practice first.
Thanks all
New to the forum here. Someone suggested I start a topic about this car over on this site!
My brother and I have been slowly working on a project for the past couple years, built almost entirely from outrageous ebay purchases.
We've built a few custom cars in that past but both fancied something turbo and mid engine so we started with a mk1 VW Caddy and then started the hunt for something unusual to put in the back.
We came across a badly fire damaged M838T from a 2015 650S and against our better judgement figured it was worth a go...
It required a lot of new parts (it had a lot of melted plastic on it) but many months of ebay searches and asking around some motorsport contacts we had a pretty good looking engine again.
We still didn't have any kind of wiring or engine management but after lots of research I ended up going with Haltech - their Nexus R5 unit suits us really well - dual DBW control and full PDM for engine and chassis. We've gone with their IC7 display and 15-button CAN keypad for all the display and control needs. They folks at Haltech are absolutely brilliant with support too.
We initially thought we could use an Audi A4 transaxle but when we considered the ~700hp we'll be putting out of the motor we started looking for more substantial options.
eBay to the rescue again - and another fire damaged car being broken for parts. This time an R8, the 6-speed manual from an early V8 model. The same transaxle from the Gallardo. Only minor damage from the fire (couple sensors melted and the oil cooler pipes - nothing too serious).
We sourced a clutch and flywheel from a Gallardo (weird trigger tooth pattern which was a bit of a headache later on) and designed a bellhousing adapter, and matching flywheel adapter to bolt it together.
We now had an engine and box mated and looked pretty good!
Next was what we do for mounting it, and the rear suspension.
One more donor sportscar was needed.... a 996. We used the rear suspension carriers and narrowed them slightly (not much was possible when the R8 transaxle is sat between them).
My brother then set about designing and building a 'subframe' to which it all mounts.
We needed to strengthen the chassis too and decided to build a cage. We've never built one before but bought a mandrel bender and a load of CDS tube and set about having a go. End result isn't too bad although there are bits we might do slightly different if we were to do it again. We wanted to keep the cage to within the confines of the outline of the bodyline at the rear - so no diagonal up from rear suspension, which is obviously sub optimal as far as cage design but we've taken it as high as we can and hopefully triangulated it sufficiently to give it enough strength. We added tubes through the sills too so it's almost a 'semi-spaceframe' built into the chassis.
The front end is where we're mounting the radiators, battery and fuel system (tank and pumps). For now the suspension is still mk1 Golf - albeit with Cupra discs and Porsche calipers but we think we might ultimately swap the front end out for mk4 platform parts which bring a few advantages (wider track, bigger brake options, power steering and relocated rack to allow pedals in cockpit to be extended further forwards).
We actually fired it up back in August (with the wiring harness roughed out, no coolant, no exhaust and no turbo plumbing!) just to prove out that it would actually work. The wiring was then removed and properly terminated and sleeved and is out of the car while we continue with the fabrication stuff
All my pictures are on my phone so will try and upload them to here somehow but I've actually just started an Instagram account which has a few pics on for now.
A few people have suggested doing some YouTube videos following the progress which I like the idea of trying, but I'm not much good in front of a camera. Or behind a camera. Or anywhere near a camera really... so might need a bit of practice first.
Thanks all
Edited by McL.VW on Sunday 25th December 13:51
Moderator edit: no social media links please
ATM said:
Firstly may I say this looks brilliant
Secondly may I ask a vulgar question about money - but first the reason why. I've got a couple of oldish Porsches and have been toying with the idea of fitting more modern engines and maybe even gearboxes into these. So all just pie in the sky at the moment. But anyway this leads me round to engine management systems. These oldish Porsche cars can't really deal with the more modern engines and flappy paddle boxes.
So that got me to thinking about completely new 3rd party management systems. In my tiny brain it should be simple enough to buy a modern system from a 3rd party designed for such things. So a management system which can handle modern engines in cars maybe not initially designed for such things.
So if I was thinking about a new management system from a 3rd party like this what kind of money would I need in my piggy bank?
Hi - thank you!Secondly may I ask a vulgar question about money - but first the reason why. I've got a couple of oldish Porsches and have been toying with the idea of fitting more modern engines and maybe even gearboxes into these. So all just pie in the sky at the moment. But anyway this leads me round to engine management systems. These oldish Porsche cars can't really deal with the more modern engines and flappy paddle boxes.
So that got me to thinking about completely new 3rd party management systems. In my tiny brain it should be simple enough to buy a modern system from a 3rd party designed for such things. So a management system which can handle modern engines in cars maybe not initially designed for such things.
So if I was thinking about a new management system from a 3rd party like this what kind of money would I need in my piggy bank?
A 3rd party ECU would certainly solve the 'problem' you would be faced with.
There are a plethora of options out there now (which is great news for people wanting to build mad things) and how much you need to spend really depends on what you need to control and what features you want.
In my case, I was somewhat limited by the requirement for it to control 2x DBW throttles - not something that many aftermarket units can offer at this time (nut no doubt more and more will in the future). I also wanted something which had good customer support and was user friendly and hence choosing Haltech. This is their top of the line model which retails at about £3500 (plus wiring harness) but their base model comes in at £1000.
The Nexus is full PDM too - so I won't have any fuses or relays. Something you probably wouldn't need for a 'normal' engine swap scenario but since I'm essentially building from scratch it is really helpful.
Trevor555 said:
Brilliant
This is proper pistonheads stuff
Thanks for sharing
But where are you going to put the shopping?
Thanks!This is proper pistonheads stuff
Thanks for sharing
But where are you going to put the shopping?
Edited by Trevor555 on Sunday 25th December 15:59
I can probably make a little bit of room in the front end.... it might get a bit warm in there with the radiator directly in front though...
Thanks for the enthusiasm, all!
I work in motorsport so am away a lot of the time but my brother ticks along with physical progress and when I’m not on hand to work on it physically I do a lot of planning and drawing from wherever I might be in the world at the time.
I’ve gone back through some pics to find a couple which show what we’ve done so far, although the timeline might be slightly out of order hopefully it’s clear.
Here’s an early photo of the subframe taking shape. The 996 carriers bolted up and one corner hanging on.
This me one is a bit more recent. Some more triangulation and gusseting of the frame, and now it’s in place in the car for a trial fit. Oil tank also roughed into place (donor McLaren, eBay again…)
The idea (!) is that the engine and box can lift out of the car, with the frame still in situ, but also that the complete rear end can be dropped out from underneath the body. Given the space we’re working in and the fact the car is on a rotisserie we opted for the first install to be everything going in together from underneath. Definitely a two man job and not the work of 5 mins but it works! A two post lift would make the job a whole lot easier. If I can upgrade to a new workshop that will be top of my list.
I can’t find a good pic of the engine mounts but we’ve used some 1-series adjustable control arms as dogbone mounts, which suit pretty nicely and have bonus of allowing small engine position adjustment while we continue to design and build. We may replace with a custom fixed length alternative when it’s all proven out. Gearbox mounts are standard audi/lambo.
The Nexus ECU will sit in kind of the ‘centre console’ location, it has some indicator leds on it for PDM status plus it’s kinda cool looking. I got it with a universal harness and 5 metres of tails on it. This is replacing the entirety of the wiring in the car. Took a lot of hours to map it all out and dress it into place. (Also the car very clearly used to be blue!)
I fired it up when the wiring was in place. To make sure it all worked before committing to the routing etc. First attempt was without fuel and just a little bit of brake cleaner in the throttle bodies to check we had spark (I can confirm we DID have ignition)
Up the front end (boring end) we’ve kept it mk1 golf for now - to speed up time to get it driving and prove out the rear engine engineering first. We plan to swap this out down the line but until then we’ve built a cross brace for lower arms and used that to integrate the radiator and fuel tank mounts. Small radiator handles the charge coolers and hopefully the big one is enough to keep engine temps under control.
Napkin sketches were about as far as the design stage went with these parts but pretty pleased with result. (Oh please disregard the choice of fasteners everywhere - once everything is built we’ll go back around and replace with the appropriate length and strength! And also please forgive some of my TIG welds. We’ve been doing a bit of ‘teach yourselves’ and trying it out on some of the non critical parts. The important bits I’m having a good friend (and professional motorsport fabricator) weld up for me)
That might be a bit too much for one post now!
I work in motorsport so am away a lot of the time but my brother ticks along with physical progress and when I’m not on hand to work on it physically I do a lot of planning and drawing from wherever I might be in the world at the time.
I’ve gone back through some pics to find a couple which show what we’ve done so far, although the timeline might be slightly out of order hopefully it’s clear.
Here’s an early photo of the subframe taking shape. The 996 carriers bolted up and one corner hanging on.
This me one is a bit more recent. Some more triangulation and gusseting of the frame, and now it’s in place in the car for a trial fit. Oil tank also roughed into place (donor McLaren, eBay again…)
The idea (!) is that the engine and box can lift out of the car, with the frame still in situ, but also that the complete rear end can be dropped out from underneath the body. Given the space we’re working in and the fact the car is on a rotisserie we opted for the first install to be everything going in together from underneath. Definitely a two man job and not the work of 5 mins but it works! A two post lift would make the job a whole lot easier. If I can upgrade to a new workshop that will be top of my list.
I can’t find a good pic of the engine mounts but we’ve used some 1-series adjustable control arms as dogbone mounts, which suit pretty nicely and have bonus of allowing small engine position adjustment while we continue to design and build. We may replace with a custom fixed length alternative when it’s all proven out. Gearbox mounts are standard audi/lambo.
The Nexus ECU will sit in kind of the ‘centre console’ location, it has some indicator leds on it for PDM status plus it’s kinda cool looking. I got it with a universal harness and 5 metres of tails on it. This is replacing the entirety of the wiring in the car. Took a lot of hours to map it all out and dress it into place. (Also the car very clearly used to be blue!)
I fired it up when the wiring was in place. To make sure it all worked before committing to the routing etc. First attempt was without fuel and just a little bit of brake cleaner in the throttle bodies to check we had spark (I can confirm we DID have ignition)
Up the front end (boring end) we’ve kept it mk1 golf for now - to speed up time to get it driving and prove out the rear engine engineering first. We plan to swap this out down the line but until then we’ve built a cross brace for lower arms and used that to integrate the radiator and fuel tank mounts. Small radiator handles the charge coolers and hopefully the big one is enough to keep engine temps under control.
Napkin sketches were about as far as the design stage went with these parts but pretty pleased with result. (Oh please disregard the choice of fasteners everywhere - once everything is built we’ll go back around and replace with the appropriate length and strength! And also please forgive some of my TIG welds. We’ve been doing a bit of ‘teach yourselves’ and trying it out on some of the non critical parts. The important bits I’m having a good friend (and professional motorsport fabricator) weld up for me)
That might be a bit too much for one post now!
Don1 said:
Amazing. But why a Caddy? And is that a silver Leon outside?
Umm. Good question.It all fits tidily in the back without cutting into the cabin area, and they were never fast in any original form. I guess it’s just a crazy combination, and should be ‘mostly’ hideable with a tonneau cover (For when parked up).
My brother and I have owned various watercooled vws over the years so have a bit of a soft spot for them.
It’s actually an early S3 (a friend’s hillclimb car).
shalmaneser said:
Could you use a 996/997 front end too? Is there a benefit from getting 'matching' suspension designs front and rear?
Cool project.
This is probably the route we’ll go down actually. Will need a fair bit of rework and we’ve been discussing at what stage we’d go for it. Advantage of keeping it original for now is that we’ve got all the bits to bolt on which allow it to roll and turn and stop and bounce so we can focus on the rear end but it’s not overlooked.Cool project.
shalmaneser said:
Could you use a 996/997 front end too? Is there a benefit from getting 'matching' suspension designs front and rear?
Cool project.
This is probably the route we’ll go down actually. Will need a fair bit of rework and we’ve been discussing at what stage we’d go for it. Advantage of keeping it original for now is that we’ve got all the bits to bolt on which allow it to roll and turn and stop and bounce so we can focus on the rear end but it’s not overlooked.Cool project.
shalmaneser said:
It's a nice compact unit with a decent aluminium subframe so should be pretty easy to bolt up. Might be better to go with a later 997 assembly as it's a pain to get bigger discs on the 9x6 stuff.
I assume it would work ok with the widened rear end...
Yes I’ve looked at a few pictures. Good to know about the brakes though - thank you.I assume it would work ok with the widened rear end...
The rear end is about 40mm narrowed compared to a standards 996 - I used the carriers and not any of the ‘subframe’ structures. I might be able to do the same at the front to nip a little bit of width out of that end too, to match. Providing i can also take it from the steering rack/track rods while also not mess up the roll or bump steer geometry too negatively!
Something on the drawing board for sure.
ballans said:
Wow, casually browsing readers cars and the title McLaren engine in a caddy pops up. That can’t be right but here it is!
How are you planning on keeping a 700bhp caddy on the road? I think it’s going to try and kill you at every opportunity.
Amazing project, well done.
Thanks!How are you planning on keeping a 700bhp caddy on the road? I think it’s going to try and kill you at every opportunity.
Amazing project, well done.
Yes it is a concern... we're a bit limited on tyre width too.
The Nexus has some nice traction control features which I've been playing with and will make use of - made easier with the DBW throttles.
I've also setup a 'granny mode' on a button, which disables the boost control (will be just wastegate spring) and softens the pedal map as well as limits it to 60%... this is all just experimentation and will take a lot of tweaking once it actually moving under it's own power of course.
I'll also have an 'all assists off' button with full boost and full throttle possible.... to try out on a very large patch airfield somewhere...
dom9 said:
Great pics - thanks! Loving this project!
The British version of: https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id...
Ah yes I know the FLY Garage caddy quite well... I actually preferred how it looked with the Corvette wheels and the simple exhaust when it was first built, but it's an impressive car. Typically it appeared on the scene just after we started ours having thought we were doing something a bit different. Oh well!The British version of: https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id...
I don't expect for a minute that our finished product will be to the same kind of level as that... Could eat dinner off that one! I do also want to try and use ours in anger on track too though
Hi all.
Not been very active on here. Apologies!
Race season is well underway so I have been busy and away with work - but progress on the Caddy is still ongoing when we can. I upload a bit onto Instagram but always forget to put anything on here.
Since last post… not much progress at rear end but decided on a complete redesign of the front end.
All the VW front suspension parts are in the bin and I now own the front half of a Boxster…
We decided to bite the bullet and install full Porsche front suspension.
Before buying the front end cut, I started by buying a full kit of front end suspension. It looked a bit worse for wear but it was all the parts, including brake calipers.
We realised we’d need some help to locate the subframe and strut tops in the correct relative place when installing it in the caddy. Started looking into taking measurements off another Porsche but then found this entire front cut on eBay - exactly what we needed. From this we made a ‘reverse jig thingy’ to then set the caddy mounts from.
Skip a few nights work, and we’ve just today got the subframe bolted into the car, with a tubular front end. All just tacked in place and still with lots of temporary supports in place as we need to make sure we’re happy with it all before getting it properly mounted.
I stuck a front wheel on it (ignore the tyres… they’re scrap and wrong size) to check ride height and clearance. Still a bit more cutting needed to be sure we’re clear at all steering angles and suspension but I think it’s looking like it might sit quite well. Toying with idea of square setup on wheels but will pug Some thought into that.
I’m going to order a set of Porsche coilovers and then I should have everything needed to put it down on the ground and get a proper look at it.
Steering column from a 987 is on the way. Once that arrives we’ll start working on seat/pedal/wheel and gear lever positioning. Sadly it’s a bit of a tight squeeze in the Caddy. Although the Porsche steering rack location means I can cut the caddy bulkhead and push the pedal box forwards for a bit more leg room.
The whole rear subframe/engine/gearbox is back out ag the moment. I’ve got exhaust parts arriving
Not been very active on here. Apologies!
Race season is well underway so I have been busy and away with work - but progress on the Caddy is still ongoing when we can. I upload a bit onto Instagram but always forget to put anything on here.
Since last post… not much progress at rear end but decided on a complete redesign of the front end.
All the VW front suspension parts are in the bin and I now own the front half of a Boxster…
We decided to bite the bullet and install full Porsche front suspension.
Before buying the front end cut, I started by buying a full kit of front end suspension. It looked a bit worse for wear but it was all the parts, including brake calipers.
We realised we’d need some help to locate the subframe and strut tops in the correct relative place when installing it in the caddy. Started looking into taking measurements off another Porsche but then found this entire front cut on eBay - exactly what we needed. From this we made a ‘reverse jig thingy’ to then set the caddy mounts from.
Skip a few nights work, and we’ve just today got the subframe bolted into the car, with a tubular front end. All just tacked in place and still with lots of temporary supports in place as we need to make sure we’re happy with it all before getting it properly mounted.
I stuck a front wheel on it (ignore the tyres… they’re scrap and wrong size) to check ride height and clearance. Still a bit more cutting needed to be sure we’re clear at all steering angles and suspension but I think it’s looking like it might sit quite well. Toying with idea of square setup on wheels but will pug Some thought into that.
I’m going to order a set of Porsche coilovers and then I should have everything needed to put it down on the ground and get a proper look at it.
Steering column from a 987 is on the way. Once that arrives we’ll start working on seat/pedal/wheel and gear lever positioning. Sadly it’s a bit of a tight squeeze in the Caddy. Although the Porsche steering rack location means I can cut the caddy bulkhead and push the pedal box forwards for a bit more leg room.
The whole rear subframe/engine/gearbox is back out ag the moment. I’ve got exhaust parts arriving
Edited by McL.VW on Sunday 9th April 19:56
shalmaneser said:
Any plans to widen the rear end to match the front? Or is the front getting narrowed. Awesome update, I can't wait to see more progress!!
We’ve thought about it. However we’ve done some measuring, the bolt face to bolt face width at the rear is now just 6mm wider than the front and I’m quite happy with it being square like that. Still undecided exactly what wheel configuration we’ll run - although we are working on packaging the standard Boxster 17” dimension wheels so that’s most likely the route we stick to.Some more progress today.
Got the Porsche steering column mounted in the right place. Nice to have the position adjustment option now. Got a nice big hole in the floor which allows the pedal box to me mounted in a position far enough forwards for someone my height to sit comfortably and with good control.
Had to cut a lot of metal out from the inner arch area because we need the clearance to run low on the 17” wheels. Made a start closing it back up.
Ordering the coilovers soon. Going with a pair from BC. They look pretty good and have ‘true’ ride height adjustment independent of spring preload as well as offering a ‘short damper’ version for low vehicles. I’m just waiting for an open length measurement to see if that’s what we need.
Had all the parts arrive for the exhaust system so managed to put that together and quite pleased with how it’s looking. Turbo > flexi > cat > silencer > tailpipe. I can’t weld it up or finalise the tail pipes until it’s back in the car. I’m pretty sure it will be nice and IVA friendly with this setup (with some rolled tips on it…) and the cats can be easily removed in favour of a section of straight pipe should I be wanting to drive it ‘off highway’…
Got the Porsche steering column mounted in the right place. Nice to have the position adjustment option now. Got a nice big hole in the floor which allows the pedal box to me mounted in a position far enough forwards for someone my height to sit comfortably and with good control.
Had to cut a lot of metal out from the inner arch area because we need the clearance to run low on the 17” wheels. Made a start closing it back up.
Ordering the coilovers soon. Going with a pair from BC. They look pretty good and have ‘true’ ride height adjustment independent of spring preload as well as offering a ‘short damper’ version for low vehicles. I’m just waiting for an open length measurement to see if that’s what we need.
Had all the parts arrive for the exhaust system so managed to put that together and quite pleased with how it’s looking. Turbo > flexi > cat > silencer > tailpipe. I can’t weld it up or finalise the tail pipes until it’s back in the car. I’m pretty sure it will be nice and IVA friendly with this setup (with some rolled tips on it…) and the cats can be easily removed in favour of a section of straight pipe should I be wanting to drive it ‘off highway’…
Edited by McL.VW on Friday 21st April 20:59
Edited by McL.VW on Friday 21st April 21:01
Hi all
Apologies I neglected to update this thread, but progress has been made in the meantime.
We’ve had it sat on the ground and pushed out of the workshop with working steering and suspension. That was a big moment.
The engine and gearbox are now back in and will remain there until after we’ve shaken it down.
Over the Christmas break we got a lot done.
Cooling and LTR systems complete (connected but still need some brackets to secure the hoses and the coolers)
Gear lever fabricated, installed and working well.
Fuel tank designed and made
Fuel lines completed
Suspension fitted
Wiring harness installed and most of it now terminated (a few bits at front end and all wheelspeeds are still to be done).
All hardlines for brakes installed. HEL Performance are coming to visit to make up the flexis we need.
A few pics but since these we’ve got the harness properly dressed and routed.
Apologies I neglected to update this thread, but progress has been made in the meantime.
We’ve had it sat on the ground and pushed out of the workshop with working steering and suspension. That was a big moment.
The engine and gearbox are now back in and will remain there until after we’ve shaken it down.
Over the Christmas break we got a lot done.
Cooling and LTR systems complete (connected but still need some brackets to secure the hoses and the coolers)
Gear lever fabricated, installed and working well.
Fuel tank designed and made
Fuel lines completed
Suspension fitted
Wiring harness installed and most of it now terminated (a few bits at front end and all wheelspeeds are still to be done).
All hardlines for brakes installed. HEL Performance are coming to visit to make up the flexis we need.
A few pics but since these we’ve got the harness properly dressed and routed.
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