2023 Ineos Grenadier Diesel 5 seat Utility Station Wagon
Discussion
I have owned a 1989 LR110CSW, updated with a 200Tdi engine for about 15 years, but it needed another rebuild as the wiring, bodywork was getting tired and the bulkhead needed work. (Old sales photograph). I sold it to an enthusiast who has since painted it heritage green and limestone.
The Grenadier project was just getting started, so I made a reservation on the first day possible, 30/09/2021, put in a formal order on the first day possible. 18/05/2022 and it was delivered 22/04/2023. In the meantime, I looked at the new Defender, explored the 300 Series Land Cruiser grey market and test drove a Suzuki Jimny.
My order was an N1 Utility 5 seat station wagon in Britannia Blue, with Scottish White roof, safari windows, smooth pack, extended electricals, KO2 tyres on standard steel wheels, textile seats and rubber mats. The final cost was £60,480, but to buy the same specification now would be around £66k after the last price rise. According to the DVLA and the insurance companies it is a van, HMRC see it as a car, as it is too heavy to be a "Dual-Purpose Vehicle" and does not have enough payload to be a commercial vehicle. It is not problem for me and the reduced initial RFL will be very useful.
So far, it has been better than expected; you can tell it is live axled, but it's road manners remind me of a better P38 and off-road it is better than my old LR110. There were no faults on delivery, but the dash does show some short lived error states on various sub-systems, but none of them linger for long and I gather there is a software update due towards the end of June to filter them out.
Stand outs for me, it's quiet, (bearing in mind I've been driving a 200Tdi), on a par with my wife's Fiat 500C; it's fast, remembering it weighs 2.7T and it is very comfortable; the Recaro seats remind me of the Vauxhall Nova GTE I owned before my Morgan.
This is, hopefully, the beginning of a long-term ownership; I'm planning 20+ years.
Having done nearly 2,000 miles in the Grenadier, the 1991 LR90 is up for sale; the brief pangs to keep the 90 were very brief. (Although the LR90 is a real Defender, someone specified it with the 2.5D NA engine, presumably the 200Tdi was too sophisticated for them).
The Grenadier project was just getting started, so I made a reservation on the first day possible, 30/09/2021, put in a formal order on the first day possible. 18/05/2022 and it was delivered 22/04/2023. In the meantime, I looked at the new Defender, explored the 300 Series Land Cruiser grey market and test drove a Suzuki Jimny.
My order was an N1 Utility 5 seat station wagon in Britannia Blue, with Scottish White roof, safari windows, smooth pack, extended electricals, KO2 tyres on standard steel wheels, textile seats and rubber mats. The final cost was £60,480, but to buy the same specification now would be around £66k after the last price rise. According to the DVLA and the insurance companies it is a van, HMRC see it as a car, as it is too heavy to be a "Dual-Purpose Vehicle" and does not have enough payload to be a commercial vehicle. It is not problem for me and the reduced initial RFL will be very useful.
So far, it has been better than expected; you can tell it is live axled, but it's road manners remind me of a better P38 and off-road it is better than my old LR110. There were no faults on delivery, but the dash does show some short lived error states on various sub-systems, but none of them linger for long and I gather there is a software update due towards the end of June to filter them out.
Stand outs for me, it's quiet, (bearing in mind I've been driving a 200Tdi), on a par with my wife's Fiat 500C; it's fast, remembering it weighs 2.7T and it is very comfortable; the Recaro seats remind me of the Vauxhall Nova GTE I owned before my Morgan.
This is, hopefully, the beginning of a long-term ownership; I'm planning 20+ years.
Having done nearly 2,000 miles in the Grenadier, the 1991 LR90 is up for sale; the brief pangs to keep the 90 were very brief. (Although the LR90 is a real Defender, someone specified it with the 2.5D NA engine, presumably the 200Tdi was too sophisticated for them).
Edited by jeremy996 on Wednesday 24th May 11:25
At just over 5500 miles, the dealer told me the tow ball had finally arrived and there was a Service Bulletin to do on the steering. I told them about the external seals coming unstuck on the front doors and the offside passenger door and the small amount of water that appeared randomly on the driver's rubber mat.
I was given a SsangYong Korando Advantage as a loan car, (I don't want one), and when I returned, the tow ball was on and apparently the seals were on order as they were too distorted to refit. No feedback on the small amount of water on the driver's rubber mat; (I guess it is A/C condensate).
Still no firm news on the promised software update and no failures to proceed from the Grenadier. I am becoming rather fond of it.
The LR90 sold for £7000, so I cannot complain.
I was given a SsangYong Korando Advantage as a loan car, (I don't want one), and when I returned, the tow ball was on and apparently the seals were on order as they were too distorted to refit. No feedback on the small amount of water on the driver's rubber mat; (I guess it is A/C condensate).
Still no firm news on the promised software update and no failures to proceed from the Grenadier. I am becoming rather fond of it.
The LR90 sold for £7000, so I cannot complain.
GreatGranny said:
Recognise the dealer from the photo, just near Belton isn't it?
Yes, Chandlers of Belton. This was the first Grenadier they delivered.Megaflow said:
This is going to be interesting to watch.
£60k on a car that already has electrical issues, a service bulletin for the steering, door seals failing and water in the footwell in 5500 miles.
They are not 'electrical issues' they are software issues; almost every new car will have software changes on a regular basis, some make it more of a pain than others. OTA updates have been known to brick peoples expensive cars on their drives; Ineos has gone down the dealer update path. Again, most new vehicles will have service bulletins, of various seriousness from checking trim is tight to major recalls. Toyota have had some horrors in the last few years, but no manufacturer is immune.£60k on a car that already has electrical issues, a service bulletin for the steering, door seals failing and water in the footwell in 5500 miles.
As for the last two, the door seals are the secondary seals and are glued onto the frames; I'd guess some surface contamination has reduced the adhesion and the drips in the floor mat are probably AC condensation. Minor matters - mine is an early build and I cannot get too excited about trivial issues that don't stop me driving my vehicle as I need to.
In the past I have have had new vehicles with minimal issues and others that have been nothing but a pain, (take a sarcastic bow, VW and BMW); so far, the Grenadier has been better than expected.
Lefty said:
Oh and did you go petrol or diesel?
Diesel. 10,500 miles so far, no more issues. The software update has been done and all the spurious errors have gone. I still have water between the driver door seals as the dealer has not been able to get a full set of seals so far, although they are hopeful for early December.It is the best vehicle I have owned, but it is also the most expensive, (by a factor of 3!) The first service, (early as I have been wading in the last set of floods), was under £400, so I was not unpleasantly surprised. Off to France in three weeks, so we will see how happily it cruises at 130kph.
https://youtu.be/ophjXb0Wbj8
Edited by jeremy996 on Thursday 9th November 00:01
Other answers
I don't find the foot hump an issue - most of the moaners have been well over 6' and wanted a seat position more like a sports car. I'm 6' only and have raised the seat and lengthened the steering column, straightening my left leg out.
No issues with the safari windows; they have been great when parked and we wanted a breeze through the vehicle on a hot day. You can even stick your head out the top to take photos.
I did not vote for Brexit - my wife and son are both eligible for Italian passports.
I don't find the foot hump an issue - most of the moaners have been well over 6' and wanted a seat position more like a sports car. I'm 6' only and have raised the seat and lengthened the steering column, straightening my left leg out.
No issues with the safari windows; they have been great when parked and we wanted a breeze through the vehicle on a hot day. You can even stick your head out the top to take photos.
I did not vote for Brexit - my wife and son are both eligible for Italian passports.
Lefty said:
Interesting! I’m 6’4” and a bit, not sat in one yet.
Did you get the parts to raise the seat and extend the wheel as part of a kit or did you make them yourself?
No, the basic seat adjustment and column adjustment were enough for me. There is quite a bit of adjustment possible as standard, but it is manual! If you have been used to a FFRR or modern Defender with electric everything, it will feel "quaint" or even "spartan".Did you get the parts to raise the seat and extend the wheel as part of a kit or did you make them yourself?
As I am expecting to keep this vehicle for 20+ years, I'm more interested in how well it will last than how well it is equipped, so manual or not fitted is fine by me.
Today's voluntary activity - marshalling the Remembrance Parades in North West Leicestershire. I did "Tail-end Charlie" for parades in Castle Donington and Whitwick today, providing a barrier at the back of the parade and a mobile road block.
One numpty in a BMW i3, (it's always a BMW!), tried to drive throught the parade in Whitwick, ignoring road closed signs and a fellow volunteer trying to flag them down. The Grenadier makes a fine road block, so they turned around before the Police got to use their fixed penalty book.
One numpty in a BMW i3, (it's always a BMW!), tried to drive throught the parade in Whitwick, ignoring road closed signs and a fellow volunteer trying to flag them down. The Grenadier makes a fine road block, so they turned around before the Police got to use their fixed penalty book.
Edited by jeremy996 on Sunday 12th November 23:12
Past 16,400 miles now; I will need to book the next service in a month or so.
The vehicle is fine, no odd messages or failures to proceed, just climb in, fasten seatbelt, turn key and go. Ineos Automotive still have not ponied up the manual or parts books yet, (end of Q1 2024, supposedly), so very much tied to the dealer network. This cannot go on; I want to be able to spend the weekend doing a service slowly and carefully, whereas the dealer will need to do all of it as fast as possible to preserve their margin.
The lack of a parts book or retail spares outlet is a pain; I'd like to buy a ladder and the L-track for the load bay, (I was too cheap to specify them at build), but until the spares website is live, it is neither easy, quick or cheap.
The vehicle is fine, no odd messages or failures to proceed, just climb in, fasten seatbelt, turn key and go. Ineos Automotive still have not ponied up the manual or parts books yet, (end of Q1 2024, supposedly), so very much tied to the dealer network. This cannot go on; I want to be able to spend the weekend doing a service slowly and carefully, whereas the dealer will need to do all of it as fast as possible to preserve their margin.
The lack of a parts book or retail spares outlet is a pain; I'd like to buy a ladder and the L-track for the load bay, (I was too cheap to specify them at build), but until the spares website is live, it is neither easy, quick or cheap.
Snow and Rocks said:
Good to hear it's running well.
Out of interest, is your dealer an old school independent garage or a modern typical main dealer effort with a nice receptionist and fancy showroom?
Chandlers of Belton are mainly an agricultural machinery dealer who have added a SsangYong franchise, (now KGM), and now the Ineos agency. https://www.chandlers.co.uk/ They also sell a lot of 2nd hand pickups. Out of interest, is your dealer an old school independent garage or a modern typical main dealer effort with a nice receptionist and fancy showroom?
I have a lot of time for them; they have tried very hard to offer a decent service, especially when Ineos Automotive appeared to be getting in the way. I get the distinct impression that Ineos have had a massive learning curve and are short of retail facing resources.
Odometer now shows 18,999 miles and no issues to speak of.
Had one day when the tyre pressure sensors went "no contact" with the dash after some impromptu wading. The following day after a start and a short drive they came back to life, much to my and the workshop supervisor's relief- finding an intermittent fault is no fun at all.
Ineos Automotive still have not delivered the workshop manuals and spares list originally outlined. Various sources inside Ineos say they are on the way, but it is clear that the "open source" vibe is long gone, buried by capitalistic grasping and IP rights management. With a 5 year manufacturer's warranty, I don't need manuals, but I really wanted to be able to understand the vehicle and how it was assembled, so I could make personalisation changes and add accessories myself slowly and carefully.
As an owner, I can spend a whole day changing the oil and doing the visual checks, whereas a dealer has to do it in three hours or less to keep their productivity up. I am happy to potter with my own vehicle and spend time doing the scratch repairs, touching up the rust inhibitor and greasing the fittings.
Had one day when the tyre pressure sensors went "no contact" with the dash after some impromptu wading. The following day after a start and a short drive they came back to life, much to my and the workshop supervisor's relief- finding an intermittent fault is no fun at all.
Ineos Automotive still have not delivered the workshop manuals and spares list originally outlined. Various sources inside Ineos say they are on the way, but it is clear that the "open source" vibe is long gone, buried by capitalistic grasping and IP rights management. With a 5 year manufacturer's warranty, I don't need manuals, but I really wanted to be able to understand the vehicle and how it was assembled, so I could make personalisation changes and add accessories myself slowly and carefully.
As an owner, I can spend a whole day changing the oil and doing the visual checks, whereas a dealer has to do it in three hours or less to keep their productivity up. I am happy to potter with my own vehicle and spend time doing the scratch repairs, touching up the rust inhibitor and greasing the fittings.
Snow and Rocks said:
Thanks for the update - Just reading back through, what sort of fuel consumption are you getting on a long fast run like you did at ~80 mph through France? Be interesting to compare it to what my current much slower and lighter Hilux would get.
22.6mpg for the French jaunt. That was with 3 adults and a lot of junkAs for the servicing, I could do it but we have no official details released to the public. I can buy the bits off the dealer, (with no discount), and keeping the invoices should keep the warranty alive, but Chandlers have proved to be competent and not over expensive.
Lefty said:
Was that on the computer or did you calculate it?
I did an 835 mile round trip to Chester a few weeks back, computer reckoned 23mpg but I actually used 140 litres of diesel which works out to almost 27mpg
That’s just me and an overnight bag, cruise on at 75mph and winter tyres rather than the stock BFG AT’s which maybe helps. My point is just that the computer doesn’t seem very accurate.
Calculated and only the there and back journeys, so the Autoroute most of the way. My old LR110CSW would do the trip on recycled veg oil and about 30mpg but at not much over 60mph, (and even then heads would rattle from the noise for a few hours). I did an 835 mile round trip to Chester a few weeks back, computer reckoned 23mpg but I actually used 140 litres of diesel which works out to almost 27mpg
That’s just me and an overnight bag, cruise on at 75mph and winter tyres rather than the stock BFG AT’s which maybe helps. My point is just that the computer doesn’t seem very accurate.
I had no complaints from the passengers during the trip which is almost without precedent; the Grenadier is surprisingly refined, not FFRR, but better than the household 2012 Fiat 500 and the various middle of the road hire cars I have driven recently.
Edited by jeremy996 on Sunday 21st April 21:48
The last time I drove a heavy vehicle without BFGs, (my old LR110CSW), I got stuck on the unmade lane to a client. The next time I visited that client, I was in my Morgan and the ground was as hard as iron.
I have no idea what tyres I'd run instead, at least once a week, I'm driving in conditions that would trap a sensible car on road tyres.
I have no idea what tyres I'd run instead, at least once a week, I'm driving in conditions that would trap a sensible car on road tyres.
Went to The Great Grenadier Charity Event in Elveden Forest this morning. 30+ Grenadiers there, representatives from Ineos, the local dealers, Melville and Moon, (posh canvas goods) and an accessories supplier. Got my truck nicely muddy on the 4x4 course there and had a gentle time looking at other people's car mods.
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