964 C4 on track?
Discussion
I'll try and keep this brief guys, my search for a 964 C2 that doesn't require loads of work is falling flat on it's face, due to budget mainly and the fact that I can't get my head around paying £20k for one.
I've found a gem of a C4. Starship miles but has had engine rebuild at opc (albeit 40k+ ago), suspension, discs, pads, replacement gearbox, clutch and most of all it's rust free.
So I'm about to buy it subject to ppi inc. compression/leakdown test. It will be a daily car (spring until autumn) but I will be "RS"-ing it over time, to add to the feel, etc. It will also do 1 or 2 trackdays a month.
Having never driven a C4 though, I'm obviously reading a lot about the understeer. Can this be dialled out with a more aggressive geo.
I know it's never going to be a C2 but that doesn't bother me. I'm buying on condition and previous pampering and am actually looking forward to sampling the handling of a C4 on a daily basis, in all weathers. Shaving tenths off a lap doesn't bother me but I also don't want a boring drive on track.
So anyone with any experience of a 964 C4, preferably a modded one, I'd love to hear your views.
I would test drive the car, but I basically want to fly down for it then drive it home, hence not trail down to view and test drive, then have to go back.
Plus driving it on the road isn't the same as the track although, yes I'll at least know if I hate it.
Thanks, Mark.
I've found a gem of a C4. Starship miles but has had engine rebuild at opc (albeit 40k+ ago), suspension, discs, pads, replacement gearbox, clutch and most of all it's rust free.
So I'm about to buy it subject to ppi inc. compression/leakdown test. It will be a daily car (spring until autumn) but I will be "RS"-ing it over time, to add to the feel, etc. It will also do 1 or 2 trackdays a month.
Having never driven a C4 though, I'm obviously reading a lot about the understeer. Can this be dialled out with a more aggressive geo.
I know it's never going to be a C2 but that doesn't bother me. I'm buying on condition and previous pampering and am actually looking forward to sampling the handling of a C4 on a daily basis, in all weathers. Shaving tenths off a lap doesn't bother me but I also don't want a boring drive on track.
So anyone with any experience of a 964 C4, preferably a modded one, I'd love to hear your views.
I would test drive the car, but I basically want to fly down for it then drive it home, hence not trail down to view and test drive, then have to go back.
Plus driving it on the road isn't the same as the track although, yes I'll at least know if I hate it.
Thanks, Mark.
Really?
They are THAT bad then?
Weight is 100kgs more. I'll be losing a lot from seats, etc.
I thought the brakes were same as C2 on front but 4pots on rear instead of 2pots? Obviously they'll feel different due to the higher pressure system.
So it's a dud even for occasional track use? Still a sportscar though surely?
Not arguing mind. I appreciate the input. Keep it coming gents.
They are THAT bad then?
Weight is 100kgs more. I'll be losing a lot from seats, etc.
I thought the brakes were same as C2 on front but 4pots on rear instead of 2pots? Obviously they'll feel different due to the higher pressure system.
So it's a dud even for occasional track use? Still a sportscar though surely?
Not arguing mind. I appreciate the input. Keep it coming gents.
Hi h___ and Lee,
Yeah lads, I sort of know the answer really. It's just that every C2 I've seen has needed work. They have been tidy but needed a rebuild, or have had a rebuild but are rough cosmetically.
This C4 is very good and is £13k. The money left over would buy seats, cage, etc.
I'm not impatient but have known from the start my budget is low and given the relative rarity of C2s, and also the old "buy on condition" rule, I figured this C4 may fit the bill.
I'll weigh it up a bit more then.
Yeah lads, I sort of know the answer really. It's just that every C2 I've seen has needed work. They have been tidy but needed a rebuild, or have had a rebuild but are rough cosmetically.
This C4 is very good and is £13k. The money left over would buy seats, cage, etc.
I'm not impatient but have known from the start my budget is low and given the relative rarity of C2s, and also the old "buy on condition" rule, I figured this C4 may fit the bill.
I'll weigh it up a bit more then.
Evening boxsey,
Ok. I see what he means. My old C2 is in that championship too. Wish I could've kept it with my turbo.
My old trackcar is in my profile. Sold last year due to lack of use, as it was track only. No 964 will compare to that hence my comments about times etc.
I don't want something that feels like a 7 series though.
Ok. I see what he means. My old C2 is in that championship too. Wish I could've kept it with my turbo.
My old trackcar is in my profile. Sold last year due to lack of use, as it was track only. No 964 will compare to that hence my comments about times etc.
I don't want something that feels like a 7 series though.
james S said:
I tracked mine a couple of times and found it fine. Sorting out the front geo would have helped the understeer which wasn't fun.
I guess a C2 is better start point but if you like the car and its in at the right money you probably can't go so far wrokng.
Others might know if you can disconnect the front diff successfully and whether this would turn it into a C2 or a disaster
How big is 'big miles' by the way. Mine had about 140 on it when it had a rebuild. The last time I saw it was at 160 in about 2005. Apparently still going very well indeed. It was an 89 car in gunmetal grey
Hi James, a lot more too it than that unfortunately. 2wd box required obviously but brakes are tied in to 4wd system I think, so loads of wiring, brains, etc to sort. Not worth it for me.I guess a C2 is better start point but if you like the car and its in at the right money you probably can't go so far wrokng.
Others might know if you can disconnect the front diff successfully and whether this would turn it into a C2 or a disaster
How big is 'big miles' by the way. Mine had about 140 on it when it had a rebuild. The last time I saw it was at 160 in about 2005. Apparently still going very well indeed. It was an 89 car in gunmetal grey
My main worry is the understeer you mention.
Simple answer is "Drive one!" but that's not really an option without wasting peoples time.
Mileage by the way is 150k. Massive history file plus all handbooks, fully stamped service book. Someone has loved it. Last owner had a genuine 73RS too. Lots of little bits that cost, such as cup mirrors, etc. Added bonus of a Becker cd player too, that I can put in my Turbo.
I'm still 50/50. My mind changes daily.
Hi Wozy - yep those have been my thoughts all week but I'm having doubts now it's getting towards crunch time.
Can always sell if I don't like it but that's unnecessary hassle.
James, yes it is for one or two trackdays a month but will be a regular use car over the summer. I'm a bit of a fanny with my 964T so want something I can rack up the miles in and really get to know and enjoy it.
That rules a Caterham out unfortunately but 968CSs are still on the shortlist.
Molly - They really are that rare. I've been watching the classifieds since last summer but hunting properly since about November.
As said it's a case of balancing my budget between buying a carrera and improving my Turbo, so I've allocated £15k for the former. Maybe go another £2k.
Believe me if you can find a good one I'll have it.
Good ones sell within a couple of days. I'm up north so struggle to get to them. If they don't go pretty quickly I think "Why not?"
Have a look for one every now and again if you're bored. It's that combination of C2, manual, coupe. Then if you find one is it a dog?
Rust is rife on these! As I'm sure you know.
Can always sell if I don't like it but that's unnecessary hassle.
James, yes it is for one or two trackdays a month but will be a regular use car over the summer. I'm a bit of a fanny with my 964T so want something I can rack up the miles in and really get to know and enjoy it.
That rules a Caterham out unfortunately but 968CSs are still on the shortlist.
Molly - They really are that rare. I've been watching the classifieds since last summer but hunting properly since about November.
As said it's a case of balancing my budget between buying a carrera and improving my Turbo, so I've allocated £15k for the former. Maybe go another £2k.
Believe me if you can find a good one I'll have it.
Good ones sell within a couple of days. I'm up north so struggle to get to them. If they don't go pretty quickly I think "Why not?"
Have a look for one every now and again if you're bored. It's that combination of C2, manual, coupe. Then if you find one is it a dog?
Rust is rife on these! As I'm sure you know.
boxsey said:
From what I know of it, it was simply called the 911 carrera 4 lightweight. As you say, extremely rare, only 20 built, and not an official model!
Lads, that's funny, I've been digging out my old mags for C4 features this last week and have just read about that car (a silver one) the other night. Very impressive car. 1050KG!! but didn't use the standard 4wd system. It used a manually controlled one with the 2 big knobs on the dash and a low ratio box. Looks great.Thanks for your input Mark (and boxsey obviously).
James
Exiges were on my shortlist until just before Xmas when I went and sat in an elise. I just couldn't put up with that on a daily basis. Shame as I've said before, I know they're brilliant. This is right up my street, well apart from the miles. I keep flicking back to them in the classifieds but...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3565610.htm
ras
Yeah, that's what I'd be looking into, the roll bar etc. I know what you mean about more coming on the market too. Hard choice indeed..
NJH
That's interesting to hear. I was 50/50 on a 968CS and they are on my shortlist (which is 964, 968CS, maybe Exige but doubtful and 996C4S if I get sensible and forget trackdays).
I know the noise alone of a 964 will keep me occupied when I'm just commuting and that's what has swayed it.
I also know though, I could go out and find a mint 968CS easily and probably for a bit less than £15k, so they're still nagging away at me.
Andiroo
Hi Andy, yep but LHD. Have considered a left hooker but don't think I'd get upto speed too quickly in a one, although using it daily would help.
Some aspects appeal, such as they're meant to be better to drive as a LHD and the fact if I RS it over the years, it'll be closer to the drive of a real one.
Have you not found anything special yet then?
melv
Great contribution, cheers! Exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Especially as you know how to pedal one and now have the RS.
Warping all the discs at once is some achievement!
I'm no Walter Rohrl and think it would be years before I even got near a C4 or C2s capabilities on track.
Signal G
I think I stumbled on your thread the other night but can't find it now. Great project but more work than I could do I think. Whatever I buy will stay as it is apart from lightening, seats, cage, geo, etc.
Craig
Cheers for the views. The thoughts of you and Melv have almost got me back to saying yes. Well that and what I already thought, that for me a C4 would do fine. It's got my head done in.
Have you found anything you like then? I know you were off to look at Z4M coupes. My girlfriend loves those and would rather I got one. Compared to an old G reg 964 with mega miles they do look tempting but hopefully what I buy is a keeper and the joy of a 964 is it's never finished if you don't want it to be. So many options and ways you can build on them.
Anyway, thanks again lads.
I'm thinking now though that yes I'd be totally happy with the C4 and I'd enjoy getting it how I want but ultimately, if a C2 came up a few weeks later I'd think damn!
That's my answer there really but at £13k, literally no rust, the owner has had the sill covers off and everything, needs nothing, it's just so tempting.
Don't need the car until May really but happy to buy now and get it how I want by then.
Cheers.
Jimmy Riviera said:
I bought a C4 a couple of years ago with the precise intention of converting to a pseudo RS / track car. C4 was a 1989 rhd non-sunroof car, with recent top-end rebuild. Quite a lot of work has gone in to and it is not necessarily the cheapest route BUT as someone else has mentioned, if you can buy a C4 which is good structurally and mechanically for a decent discount then it can start to make sense albeit that you are of course restricting your re-sale market.
So far:
i). Ditched front diff
ii). Swapped C4 g/box for 964 RS with LSD
iii). 965 turbo uprights
iv). 964 RS ARB's
v). 964 RS spec front and rear monoballs
vi). 964 RS bushes
vii). RS engine mount and gearbox mount
viii). Later 964 RHD pedal set
ix). Fully welded cage install
x). Lightweight interior and carpet set
xi). Rear seats deleted; Recaro SPG's upfront.
xii). Bilstein PSS10 kit
xiii). Electric window, mirror and stereo delete.
A lot of the above you would do if you were building a track focused car regardless of whether it were a C4 or C2.
The best bargain C2 to RS I have ever seen sold here on PH 18 - 24 months ago. LHD C2 with all RS parts on it, right down to the lightweight glass and I think sold for mid-teens. Was bought by Jason from Nottingham area and I think that it then went back to Europe. Those kind of offers do not come up very often.
If you were to leave the C4 as a C4, listen to Melv he knows what the score is. Otherwise wait for a C2. One will turn up eventually.
Impressive! As you say you'd have to do that to any Carrera really, 2 or 4. Those are the mods I'd be looking to do over (a lot of) time. I can't see myself ever getting round to removing the 4wd though, as there's so much involved, with the electrics/braking etc. So with that in mind I think I do need to wait. Lovely C4 this one I know of, it's proving hard to pass by. So far:
i). Ditched front diff
ii). Swapped C4 g/box for 964 RS with LSD
iii). 965 turbo uprights
iv). 964 RS ARB's
v). 964 RS spec front and rear monoballs
vi). 964 RS bushes
vii). RS engine mount and gearbox mount
viii). Later 964 RHD pedal set
ix). Fully welded cage install
x). Lightweight interior and carpet set
xi). Rear seats deleted; Recaro SPG's upfront.
xii). Bilstein PSS10 kit
xiii). Electric window, mirror and stereo delete.
A lot of the above you would do if you were building a track focused car regardless of whether it were a C4 or C2.
The best bargain C2 to RS I have ever seen sold here on PH 18 - 24 months ago. LHD C2 with all RS parts on it, right down to the lightweight glass and I think sold for mid-teens. Was bought by Jason from Nottingham area and I think that it then went back to Europe. Those kind of offers do not come up very often.
If you were to leave the C4 as a C4, listen to Melv he knows what the score is. Otherwise wait for a C2. One will turn up eventually.
melv said:
Marky.....I haven't got an RS...
Aha! Always presumed it was an RS Melv. A click on your profile would have been wise. Lovely car!
freedman said:
That's the exact one I think freedman. Bit heavier than the mag said but still good. Was valued at £150k back then, not sure what it is now.Haha!
I'm no driving god either. I've always been quickish on the road, in cars and on bikes but when you get on track you realise what quick is eh!
That Gmund car is exactly what I'm after. I've been keeping an eye on it for a while. Way over budget though. Even if it was twenty it's too much for me but I would maybe stretch a bit for that and put off the respray on my Turbo for another year.
Carrera 2 with RS interior and tweaked suspension would keep me entertained for a long time before I felt the need to go any further.
I'm no driving god either. I've always been quickish on the road, in cars and on bikes but when you get on track you realise what quick is eh!
That Gmund car is exactly what I'm after. I've been keeping an eye on it for a while. Way over budget though. Even if it was twenty it's too much for me but I would maybe stretch a bit for that and put off the respray on my Turbo for another year.
Carrera 2 with RS interior and tweaked suspension would keep me entertained for a long time before I felt the need to go any further.
Hi rlw,
I think I know the one you mean. Malton = Can't afford it, in my world though.
Same thoughts as I mentioned previously though. Lhd. Don't think I'd be that good at driving one. I'm crap on holiday in hire cars.
One left hooker I would love mind is Jonny Tipplers peppermint pig from the Porsche mag. I love that and would make allowances.
I have been to-ing and fro-ing all weekend but working nightshifts at the minute so I am usually too much of a zombie to just make up my mind!
Think I'm going to go for this grey one though. I can have it fitted with Recaro seats, carpets and doorcards, suspension tweaked and setup for under £16k which seems good. Will probably ring the guy back tomorrow.
Appbiz - Anyone used these? Seem cheap. Is it tat?
I think I know the one you mean. Malton = Can't afford it, in my world though.
Same thoughts as I mentioned previously though. Lhd. Don't think I'd be that good at driving one. I'm crap on holiday in hire cars.
One left hooker I would love mind is Jonny Tipplers peppermint pig from the Porsche mag. I love that and would make allowances.
I have been to-ing and fro-ing all weekend but working nightshifts at the minute so I am usually too much of a zombie to just make up my mind!
Think I'm going to go for this grey one though. I can have it fitted with Recaro seats, carpets and doorcards, suspension tweaked and setup for under £16k which seems good. Will probably ring the guy back tomorrow.
Appbiz - Anyone used these? Seem cheap. Is it tat?
Morning Craig, thanks for that. Yeah, I noticed that the other day, looks lovely doesn't it.
I had a mid-70's 911 years ago but just couldn't get on with it. Think I mentioned it when you were "learning" the SC. Lovely cars, but I just can't seem to drive them. I don't get any confidence from the brakes, nothing-nothing-then one locks up. Also I can't get along with 915 boxes, although loads of people do, so that's me just being soft I think.
I do keep an eye on the Pre-89 classifieds too though as if the right car came up I would have a look. My mate is busy building an '83 SC into a pre-impact model. Bare shell at the minute and has just came back from painting, Black with Green fuchs. It's a beauty but will be north of £25K min.
The C4 had it's inspection on Thurs/Fri (last week is a blur). The following came back. Anyone reading please pitch in with your thoughts (mine are next to the item ) :-
Now the bad ones -
Anyway, Inspection place say £1k to sort but that doesn't include gearbox obviously or investigating the ABS. I can probably get the work done for less up here by my mate and I've managed to chip the seller down another £1k so the car is £12k.
The guy doing the inspection says it has a few little marks etc, but it's by no means a dog and for the price is a good car.
He didn't do comp/leakdowns until I had a think about the faults above as he didn't want to spend my money for nothing. I slept on it and told him to do them, as if the engine is healthy it would be a shame to walk away so easily.
Engine checks being carried out early next week. The seller is a sound guy and says there's no problem if I decide against it at anytime. He didn't know about the plate and can understand if it puts me off.
I'm looking at the bigger picture too though, it will be a rust-free, mostly sorted 964 for £13k with extensive history (folders of the stuff), OPC rebuilt engine (albeit 50k ago), recent discs/pads, Ruf suspension, which is actually just bilsteins
, but still mint, drives lovely.
What else does £13k get in 964-land?
Anyway, sorry for the long post, just some Sunday morning ramblings. Again, cheers for that heads-up Craig, are you sorted with anything yet?
If I decide against this or the engine isn't great I'm going to hold on and just sort my 964T quicker I think. Too much time going into this search, although I'll still keep an eye out. Trouble is I want something for trackday season, but I could always just stick £3k in 306GTi6 or Civic Type R for now.
Cheers, Mark.
I had a mid-70's 911 years ago but just couldn't get on with it. Think I mentioned it when you were "learning" the SC. Lovely cars, but I just can't seem to drive them. I don't get any confidence from the brakes, nothing-nothing-then one locks up. Also I can't get along with 915 boxes, although loads of people do, so that's me just being soft I think.
I do keep an eye on the Pre-89 classifieds too though as if the right car came up I would have a look. My mate is busy building an '83 SC into a pre-impact model. Bare shell at the minute and has just came back from painting, Black with Green fuchs. It's a beauty but will be north of £25K min.
The C4 had it's inspection on Thurs/Fri (last week is a blur). The following came back. Anyone reading please pitch in with your thoughts (mine are next to the item
) :-- Rear bumper stay rotten - Nothing to sort out and typical of age/miles.
- Rear bumper heat-shield tatty - As above.
- Oil leak from pipe joints under tank - It's not engine block so fine.
- Oil leak from pipe that exits crankcases - As above.
- Oil leak from Rocker cover gasket - As above.
Now the bad ones -
- ABS/4WD light on - Owner told me about this when I first asked about faults. He says it comes on if car has sat for weeks but usually goes off. Garage said fair enough but they have to report it, obviously. I'm not too worried as it could just be a sensor, on the other hand it could be something on the 4x4 system, hence it's a slight concern, only slight though.
- Repair plate on gearbox - Worst fault in my eyes. The car had a second-hand replacement box 15K ago before current owner. It turns out that the box has had a repair plate welded on the base, but what the bodgers have done is weld it over the 2 halves of the casings!!! Hence, if you ever need split the casings, you'd have to grind off the plate, repair the box then reverse the steps.
Anyway, Inspection place say £1k to sort but that doesn't include gearbox obviously or investigating the ABS. I can probably get the work done for less up here by my mate and I've managed to chip the seller down another £1k so the car is £12k.
The guy doing the inspection says it has a few little marks etc, but it's by no means a dog and for the price is a good car.
He didn't do comp/leakdowns until I had a think about the faults above as he didn't want to spend my money for nothing. I slept on it and told him to do them, as if the engine is healthy it would be a shame to walk away so easily.
Engine checks being carried out early next week. The seller is a sound guy and says there's no problem if I decide against it at anytime. He didn't know about the plate and can understand if it puts me off.
I'm looking at the bigger picture too though, it will be a rust-free, mostly sorted 964 for £13k with extensive history (folders of the stuff), OPC rebuilt engine (albeit 50k ago), recent discs/pads, Ruf suspension, which is actually just bilsteins
, but still mint, drives lovely.What else does £13k get in 964-land?
Anyway, sorry for the long post, just some Sunday morning ramblings. Again, cheers for that heads-up Craig, are you sorted with anything yet?
If I decide against this or the engine isn't great I'm going to hold on and just sort my 964T quicker I think. Too much time going into this search, although I'll still keep an eye out. Trouble is I want something for trackday season, but I could always just stick £3k in 306GTi6 or Civic Type R for now.
Cheers, Mark.
Edited by marky911 on Sunday 12th February 11:22
Ah right, cheers Pesty. I'm quite willing to suck it and see with this one. The car will get regular use so if the fault doesn't clear after a few weeks I would get it looked at.
Until the car went for its inspection last week it hadn't turned a wheel since November, that's why the seller stressed it would probably be on.
Until the car went for its inspection last week it hadn't turned a wheel since November, that's why the seller stressed it would probably be on.
Hi Melv, yep I'll get all the remedial work done as soon as I get the car home (if I do). Thanks for the info.
The plate is obviously covering damage to the casing or a leak, although it's an extreme way to fix a leak. It's dry though and alters nothing apart from being a right bodge.
If I get it I'd love any hints and tips on braking on track after you said you warped all of your discs. Is there any particular tricks or just an adjustment in the way you brake, pedal pressure, duration, etc, or is it simply that you have to go a bit easier in general on them?
Cheers.
The plate is obviously covering damage to the casing or a leak, although it's an extreme way to fix a leak. It's dry though and alters nothing apart from being a right bodge.
If I get it I'd love any hints and tips on braking on track after you said you warped all of your discs. Is there any particular tricks or just an adjustment in the way you brake, pedal pressure, duration, etc, or is it simply that you have to go a bit easier in general on them?
Cheers.
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