991 GT3 - latest pics
Discussion
finally someone decided to take some of the inside, something no one has yet thought of for some reason despite porsche having left a bunch at a petrol station and having spent the best part of a week driving round san francisco. 918 spyder was on the trailer too.
edited to fix pics.
edited to fix pics.
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 10th October 23:56
spareparts said:
It just isn't powerful enough
Technically, it just doesn't have the displacement/torque. Porsche need an 8cyl engine to really compete. The equalisation rules mean that the intake restrictors and rev limits designed to even out HP/weight and ensure a class hierarchy hurt cars with small displacement and low torque more than they do large engines with lots of torque.
As they race in GTE class, the RSR is 455hp/450Nm@1220kg while the vette is 491hp/658Nm@1245kg
Edited by fioran0 on Friday 12th October 10:46
spareparts said:
No, I have never said that regarding the DFI engine.
The Mezger GT1-derived unit has been proven to lack power compared to the more recent GT3-class competition as Porsche have been dominated by the more powerful Ferraris in recent years in ALMS/LMS/FIA GT class racing.
However - the DFI engine is a significantly simpler powerplant with fewer mechanical parts that is making very strong power/torque per cc capacity (in basic form, not yet tuned) with improved economy to boot.
Increased simplicity + increased power + increased economy + no oil leaks (so far reportedly!) = promising new engine future for Porsche? I cannot imagine Porsche investing so heavily in a completely new engine for the 911 without thinking it was making a long term investment in an engine with significant upside and scalability for road and racing purposes. Time will tell and I could be totally wrong...
The decision powering the mezger replacement is margins. It costs approx 45k for one. Using an engine that costs 10k gives far better returns. The Mezger GT1-derived unit has been proven to lack power compared to the more recent GT3-class competition as Porsche have been dominated by the more powerful Ferraris in recent years in ALMS/LMS/FIA GT class racing.
However - the DFI engine is a significantly simpler powerplant with fewer mechanical parts that is making very strong power/torque per cc capacity (in basic form, not yet tuned) with improved economy to boot.
Increased simplicity + increased power + increased economy + no oil leaks (so far reportedly!) = promising new engine future for Porsche? I cannot imagine Porsche investing so heavily in a completely new engine for the 911 without thinking it was making a long term investment in an engine with significant upside and scalability for road and racing purposes. Time will tell and I could be totally wrong...
Edited by spareparts on Friday 12th October 10:33
For power comments, see my above ^
My info is 9A1 for 991GT3, 3.8 mezger for 991Cup.
Both will have paddles but one will be PDK and the other a proper sequential with a clutch pedal. Porsche will as usual pretend they are the same.
Time will tell though.
It's probably worth a mention too that without a big rule change, you cannot use DFI in GTE. Assuming there is a 991 based RSR and assuming it uses 9A1 then it won't be using DFI.
I have no problems with the end of mezger if what replaces it is better but having had plenty apart it will take some doing IMHO.
The mezger engine is extremely simple and robust.
As far as I can gather, all the talk of 9A1 improvements in terms of simplicity and moving parts are actually over the M96/M97 engines. A different thing entirely.
Edited by fioran0 on Friday 12th October 11:20
Spot on. Cups have no homologation so could run whatever Porsche please. They set the spec though ofcourse with a view to having it eligible in as many formats as possible. It will indeed be very telling if that's what delivers though there's a lot of water to still pass under that bridge so all one can really do is wait and comment fully once they do.
The rules mean that the engines have to be the same ie engine cases, heads, crank etc though of course there's enough allowance that you end up with a monster 4.0RSR engine rather than a 4.0 street engine.
DFI can be removed and blocked up.
I wonder if longer term the RSR will be based on the 961 type 8 cyl that's supposed to platform share with gallardo/R8 if it doesn't just absorb into R8 racing completely.
The rules mean that the engines have to be the same ie engine cases, heads, crank etc though of course there's enough allowance that you end up with a monster 4.0RSR engine rather than a 4.0 street engine.
DFI can be removed and blocked up.
I wonder if longer term the RSR will be based on the 961 type 8 cyl that's supposed to platform share with gallardo/R8 if it doesn't just absorb into R8 racing completely.
Steve has covered most of anything I would have added ref the engines.
£45k and £19k are the current retail prices on a mezger and 9a1 engine without core exchange.
The point of posting was just to offer an alternative view on why Porsche may be so keen to phase it out ala 997 turbo.
There's very little margin on the GT3 even with its higher sale price while good margin on say a C2 despite its lower sale price and it's entirely due to the engine. The rest of the costs to build and deliver are very close between the two.
This is the source of Porsches complaint over the GT3 line.
It would be reasonable thus to assume that the sale price differential in no way covers the difference in engine cost price to Porsche. If it did then margin would be as good or better.
Despite making the engine for some years there's just no way to cut its cost. The components inside are expensive and there's no way around it if you want to make something of that quality.
All of this has sidetracked from what was a pretty interesting read on what folks were thinking over the upcoming car. It was all very sensible for a while
£45k and £19k are the current retail prices on a mezger and 9a1 engine without core exchange.
The point of posting was just to offer an alternative view on why Porsche may be so keen to phase it out ala 997 turbo.
There's very little margin on the GT3 even with its higher sale price while good margin on say a C2 despite its lower sale price and it's entirely due to the engine. The rest of the costs to build and deliver are very close between the two.
This is the source of Porsches complaint over the GT3 line.
It would be reasonable thus to assume that the sale price differential in no way covers the difference in engine cost price to Porsche. If it did then margin would be as good or better.
Despite making the engine for some years there's just no way to cut its cost. The components inside are expensive and there's no way around it if you want to make something of that quality.
All of this has sidetracked from what was a pretty interesting read on what folks were thinking over the upcoming car. It was all very sensible for a while
Helicopter123 said:
I would hardly call the DFI engine a vanilla lump - it's already being used in competition with success.
I assume you mean the success in the grand am continental tyre sports car challenge series?That doesn't mark the engine out as anything special yet (though those guys efforts certainly were). M96/M97 has won there too.
9A1 may turn out to be special in some form or other but it will need the factory racing program and a higher level to show it.
Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 13th October 20:15
juansolo said:
GTx denotes the series the cars were homologated for racing in surely. The fact they used a different engine was purely down to that process. Likely so they could use the race blocks in the race cars as the road engines of the time were not deemed suitable/strong enough. If the 991 race cars are running engines based on the new lump then that's what will be in the road car. They are not going to use a substandard engine for racing.
what if the 991 race cars do not use engines based on the new lump while the street car changes? Where does that leave the GT3 name? What if its less overt, say race engine is properly dry sumped and street one is integrated? How will this divide people?
Maybe we will all have been thrown the best fake in the history of motoring and there's an 8cyl 9A1 about to drop for both street GT3 and race program.
For all the test mules being left around for people to "spy" no one has bothered to get down on the ground and photograph the engine case. Why?
(I suspect sadly because everyone here is in a minority and most folk want to see the bling)
Edited by fioran0 on Saturday 13th October 20:20
Slippydiff said:
If Stuttgart make a big deal out of making it lighter (and I mean much lighter) and a lot more focused than the R8 and Gallardo, and rear wheel drive only. I'd sign on the dotted line.
No kidding huh. It could be fantastic providing its everything the others aren't. I wouldn't say either are great to drive. 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
plus Porsche are coming at the 991 with the 911 brand suffering falling global sales of on average 20% per year since 2008 apparently. 2007 was the last year of non negative numbers. the cayman and boxster, with the exception of 2005 have been shelling sales numbers endlessly aswell. their sports cars are out sold massively by their luxo/suv models.folks have just been abandoning them in terms of new sports cars sold in serious fashion.
one might argue that they were simultaneously out of touch with both purists and luxury car buyers; it seems like they have decided that luxury car buyers offer more hope for their future.
Edited by fioran0 on Monday 15th October 23:37
Phooey said:
Some more pics... http://www.autogespot.be/nl/porsche-991-gt3/2012/1...
un disguised rear bumper finally too. i was really thinking there might be more of a diffuser under there when the camo came off.anonymous said:
[redacted]
No kidding. Hopefully they've just run out of plastic sheets and tape so stuck this one on in lieu of a camouflaged proper one. I was really hoping they were going to get a working floor/diffuser going on now its on the RSR.
Actually, Im still solidly hoping they somehow turn out a total monster of a car that embraces all that's Porsche in spirit/character
20" wheels sort of suggest I'm screwed though lol.
That and how badly Porsche want the new cars pictured suggests its not as work in progress as one may hope.
Edited by fioran0 on Monday 15th October 23:52
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