996 Turbo Brakes

[ScienceTeacher]

I have a manual '04 Turbo, owned since Jan '14. It's probably a keeper. I don't do track days but I like to press on when behind the wheel - I have other cars so only drive it for pleasure. I have always found the brakes underwhelming. I appreciate they seem to work better when warm and do need a very firm push, but still.. I like to schedule early maintenance and replacement rather than waiting for things to wear out, but I am not made of money and need to be prudent. The car is maintained at the redoubtable 9E. I am looking to improve the braking experience. I am not at the stage where fade is an issue, but you never know. I envisage the following options and include my thoughts on pros and cons. Any learned opinions from the PH massive would be appreciated.

1. Full house: GT3 front calipers, Girodiscs all round, refurbed rear calipers, braided hoses, RS29 pads. Pros: within reason the best solution and likely to be durable - lighter discs improving unsprung mass. Cons: Expensive (5.5K), spacers needed which increase mass and might look odd, there could be an issue with brake pipes seized and a gear box drop for new hoses..!
2. GT3 fronts, regular pads, braided front hoses. Pros: proper hardware upgrade. Cons: Still fairly costly (3.5K), rears could still be dicky, spacers needed, increased unsprung mass.
3. Front and rear calipers refurb, new discs (possibly Giro), braided hoses, RS29 pads. Pros: keeps the car originalish but nicely updated, less expensive, should improve initial bite and tenacity. Cons: Ultimately the same calipers and discs, Girodiscing seems silly without bigger calipers, but not certain, and is very costly, at least same total as point 2. Without Giros cost is more sensible 2.5K or so.

There are clearly some combinations not accounted for, but the above seem like sensible choices. I would like to feel the improvement and would also like to invest in the car. I am not that into modding and like my cars to at least look pretty stock. I have not gone for any power upgrades but do slightly lust after a 9E stage 1, with new IC. Slippery slope...

Any views / solutions appreciated.

Edited by ScienceTeacher on Wednesday 2nd August 22:46

[ScienceTeacher]

Slippydiff said:

There's a pair of mechanically and aesthetically refurbished 6 pot calipers for sale on 911uk. I sold them to the current vendor 12-18 months ago. He bought them for his 996 Turbo but has changed his plans.
New they're £1100 plus vat each. He's asking £1500 for the pair with the correct hardlines. I had them refurbed, they are as new.

http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=121170

Don't bother upgrading the rear calipers or discs, do pads if you must, but there's no need.
Don't mess about with Giro discs on the front, get the best quality 350mm discs you can off Euro Car Parts or Design91. Fitting lighter more expensive discs to reduce unsprung weight on a 996 Turbo is not a good or worthwhile investment of your funds.

A pair of these would be good (they're the 997 Turbo items) :

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Porsche_911_3.6_...

Front pads you could do RS29's, but they're overkill for fast road use, if Euro or Design911 do OE Pagids, use them :

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Porsche_911_3.6_...

Braided lines are ok, but not a necessity. Decent brake fluid is, so go with Castrol SRF, Endless or Motul.
Using secondhand calipers you should be able to do a good upgrade for a lot less than the figures you've been quoted.

This might come in handy too : http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=122344&sid=d0...

Edited by Slippydiff on Thursday 3rd August 07:28

Guys, thanks for the detailed replies and technical info. I appreciate Slippy's first offer and may have a look, but also acknowledge the view that fluid, hoses and pads may be my answer.

Question: from an assistance point of view is there any way to adjust the brakes so that they assist more? Also, will the GT3 brakes just feel the same unless stopping from from very high speed or where fade is a factor?

My feeling is that my wife's golf will stop in a shorter distance from 60 and I do press the pedal really very hard in the Turbo. Perhaps it's just perception. Also if the Turbo's brakes are warm it may be a lot better.

As an interesting reference point, my last 996, a Carrera cab, had a VERY sensitive pedal like mentioned on OH's Ford. It was annoyingly so. What I'm saying is, that the standard Porsche braking hardware seemingly can be made to be very sensitive. How?

Edited by ScienceTeacher on Thursday 3rd August 20:40

[ScienceTeacher]

Gents, your feedback and wise advice is seriously appreciated. I am still not quite sure, but I am much better informed and in a good position to make a sensible decision. Cheers.

[ScienceTeacher]

Well gentlemen, I have chewed on this long enough and today took the plunge at JZM. Steve McHale was reassuring on the 'phone and seemed very experienced. GT3 (motorsport) 6pots, 997 front discs, GT3 pads, an inspection of rear discs and pads, steelflex hoses. Discussed other options. I like the idea of the extra capability - whether I need it or not; vanity perhaps, but not overkill. I hope I notice the difference...
Hopefully, all in, well sub £4K. Will keep you updated.

Edited by ScienceTeacher on Monday 7th August 19:40

[ScienceTeacher]

Cheers, will let you know. The calipers will seemingly take a couple of weeks from Porsche Motorsport, the rest of the stuff is next day. Never done a track day and don't like the idea of bending my car. Perhaps I'll try someone else's first. I suspect it will be enormous fun - annoyingly so, perhaps!

[ScienceTeacher]

So, picked up the car today from JZM. I was delighted with the service and professionalism of the team. I met with director Steve McHale to start with, then met my technician, Ricky. Both were very knowledgeable and friendly. They have a wonking selection of motors for sale and one of the lads fired up the Carrera GT and moved it a few feet for my little boy, which was fantastic. The noise and smell indoors at close quarters was just the best. They have a great front of house team who are courteous and attentive. Plenty of lovely coffee and Ritz Carlton loos.
As a reminder, I opted for the 6 pot fronts which Steve ordered from Porsche Motorsport together with 997T discs, GT3 pads, Fischer braided hoses (they actually fit, unlike other brands) and the necessary spacers.
Before the exercise I had lacked a certain confidence in the brakes. The pedal seemed to need to be pressed very hard, but it did stop well from speed and never felt dangerous. There was approximately 1cm of slack travel then resistance to pressure, but a lot of force was needed to stop quickly. Unlike a new Fiesta I felt I could not ever quite stop the car on a dime even if going very slowly. The car seemed unable to do that sharp jerk that spills a passenger's coffee. This might be because I was bracing myself against the pedal to achieve it unlike the Fiesta where a light touch will do it. The brakes worked better when the discs were hot, though, and the higher speed braking seemed decent enough.
Findings: in summary, considerably improved performance, but a very different feel. The pedal now has 3cm of slack travel which feels weird and means it is harder to roll onto the throttle under braking and shifting down, I have to angle my foot up a bit where before it was well positioned. I think the push rod might be able to adjusted to remove this, but I don't know. The pedal then gently resists and the car slows. Press a little harder, and the car really starts to stop. Press harder still (not nearly as hard as before), and the car nose dives into an anti lock stop, impressively. It is much more confidence inspiring. Crucially, the car can jerk to a stop, instantly, at slower speeds, without having to push the pedal through the floor.
I will enquire as to whether the pedal push rod can be extended a bit to remove the 3cm of slack travel. The brakes would then be nearly perfect. The car does now seem to nose dive and I sense the front ABS acts first. I believe if I then press the pedal harder the rears will lock too. It is a 4 channel system and all 4 wheels are separately ABS'd. It is perhaps the case that the rears need a slight balance adjustment , but this could be rubbish.
I am not sure if the spare wheel fits, but Steve thinks it does. The spacers look fine and you at first don't notice them (15mm). The car arguably looks better. I noticed no difference in handling, but was nowhere near the limit on my return journey - never am, in fact.
The work was done with very little fuss - no rear brake pipes needed doing!! The bleed nipple on a rear caliper did have to be drilled out and replaced, but this is par for the course. I would recommend JZM without hesitation.
The car is marvellous. It looks beautiful to my eyes with the lapis and baby poo interior (actually works really well). The car has so much oomph in 4th gear at higher speeds, with huge shove on motorway overtakes. The brakes now seem to work very well and I sure have a lot more capacity. They look much beefier, too, which is a plus. I will report back on my findings as they bed in.

Edited by ScienceTeacher on Wednesday 30th August 17:13

Edited by ScienceTeacher on Wednesday 30th August 17:15

Edited by ScienceTeacher on Wednesday 30th August 17:19

[ScienceTeacher]

Sorry, roged the upload thing on my last post. A couple more snaps.

[ScienceTeacher]

[ScienceTeacher]

[ScienceTeacher]

Thank you for your kind and informative words - appreciated. So on Tuesday my lad stood next to the GT as it fired up and today at Blenheim he was next to the Big Mac driving off. Splendid.

[ScienceTeacher]

NBTBRV8 said:

When I fitted the same brakes to my old tt I had the same issue. The pedal travel is longer than you'd expect, that is why I recommended standard brakes with upgraded pads.

I do respect this. The point is that it seems to be dead travel, to use Digga's words, ie no discernible resistance or retardation for 3 cm then sensible, progressive, resistance and retardation, and an impressively improved halt. How do I rid myself of dead travel? The earlier suggestion is to wait for seals to bed in (I don't understand this) or have a further bleed, which seems sensible. I do also believe a push rod adjustment would be of help.

[ScienceTeacher]

Just returned from Ken’s. New rear discs and RS29 pads to match the bigger fronts. Should have had it done to start with. More sure footed and definitely feels that the braking isn’t all being done at the front and the car seems flatter under moderate braking. Pedal feels a little firmer. All good. Excellent experience at Ken’s, as always.
Once again, my price projection for sensible preventative work is correct. Going into my fifth year of ownership and it’s still circa £4K pa on 2000 miles. Main coolant hose over engine needs replacing. Putting it off ‘til later in the year. Engine out...