Porsche 997 3.8 needs a new engine
Discussion
Hi Folks
Ive read numerous posts about the issues with the 3.8 engine and it appears mine is on death row. I recently changed the exhaust manifolds and noted that No.4 cylinder exhaust valves were black and sooty compared with a light coffee colour of the other 5 pots. The engine has also started a ticking sound and the L/H exhaust tip is sooty compared to the R/H. The ticking noise sounds like a follower and decreases when the revs are raised hence i have a few options as follows, any advice.
Option 1. Break it, or try and sell it declaring the condition of the engine and hope a German guy rocks up with €20k+
Option 2. Remove the engine, strip the it back to a long block and head up to see Baz and Grant at Hartech and spend £8.5k for rebuild with the later spec IMS, new big ends and thrusts , timing chains , head over haul and modified block and recoated pistons etc
Option 3. Fit the later Gen 2 engine (is it fairly straight forward)
I must admit i kinda favour either the 2nd or 3rd option but its hard to justify spending £8.5 k on it. The car is stolen recoved in very good order on a 2004 with full history and 63k miles and probably worth circa £18k due to being listed as "condition inspected" . Long term i like the car and wouldn't mind keeping it.
Anythoughts
Thanks
Ive read numerous posts about the issues with the 3.8 engine and it appears mine is on death row. I recently changed the exhaust manifolds and noted that No.4 cylinder exhaust valves were black and sooty compared with a light coffee colour of the other 5 pots. The engine has also started a ticking sound and the L/H exhaust tip is sooty compared to the R/H. The ticking noise sounds like a follower and decreases when the revs are raised hence i have a few options as follows, any advice.
Option 1. Break it, or try and sell it declaring the condition of the engine and hope a German guy rocks up with €20k+
Option 2. Remove the engine, strip the it back to a long block and head up to see Baz and Grant at Hartech and spend £8.5k for rebuild with the later spec IMS, new big ends and thrusts , timing chains , head over haul and modified block and recoated pistons etc
Option 3. Fit the later Gen 2 engine (is it fairly straight forward)
I must admit i kinda favour either the 2nd or 3rd option but its hard to justify spending £8.5 k on it. The car is stolen recoved in very good order on a 2004 with full history and 63k miles and probably worth circa £18k due to being listed as "condition inspected" . Long term i like the car and wouldn't mind keeping it.
Anythoughts
Thanks
Many thanks for the comments, i must admit i'm concerned about how long even the rebuilds from Hartech are lasting are there any high mileage cars still going with 100k +, either way i won't be going anywhere near an OPC after being ripped off by them with constant failures on my 964 engine due to head sealing problems. They even charged me £450 to tell me the head bolts they supplied and fitted had come loose !
Gen 2 would be good if i can locate an engine at a reasonable price (please send me a PM if you have one for sale)
Is it fairly straight forward plug and play or do i need to modify the wiring loom and get a different ECU.
Hartech have quoted me £10,080 to drop the car off and collect a month later providing there aren't any surcharges for damaged pistons etc.
Gen 2 would be good if i can locate an engine at a reasonable price (please send me a PM if you have one for sale)
Is it fairly straight forward plug and play or do i need to modify the wiring loom and get a different ECU.
Hartech have quoted me £10,080 to drop the car off and collect a month later providing there aren't any surcharges for damaged pistons etc.
Thanks for the updates, i did tick all the options reference the Hartech route and this came to over £10k however i also have the option to remove the engine myself and strip down and then take the block up to Hartech c/w old pistons for modification.
I have the car booked in at AW motorsport next Friday for a bore inspection and will probably see what this uncovers.
I've also been quoted £2k to remove and replace the valve lifters on the R/H bank hoping this will fixing the ticking issue but i will be gutted if this is actually No.4 piston hitting the head.
Its a shame the Gen 2 motor is not as simple to Plug and Play as i've been offered a couple for circa £7500 + import charges
I have the car booked in at AW motorsport next Friday for a bore inspection and will probably see what this uncovers.
I've also been quoted £2k to remove and replace the valve lifters on the R/H bank hoping this will fixing the ticking issue but i will be gutted if this is actually No.4 piston hitting the head.
Its a shame the Gen 2 motor is not as simple to Plug and Play as i've been offered a couple for circa £7500 + import charges
thanks cmoose
i did tick the heads option aso. I did look into how much i'd save doing it myself but also hadn't factored in the cost of oil, gaskets etc etc.
next on the list is do i fork out anoth grand and have a set of Wossner ? pistons fitted instead of re using the standard original items. I must admit that i paid far too much for this car which will stand me in over £30k after the engine work. Will wait until i get the results of the bore inspection next Friday before i commit the additional £10k investment in a stolen recovered 997 !
i did tick the heads option aso. I did look into how much i'd save doing it myself but also hadn't factored in the cost of oil, gaskets etc etc.
next on the list is do i fork out anoth grand and have a set of Wossner ? pistons fitted instead of re using the standard original items. I must admit that i paid far too much for this car which will stand me in over £30k after the engine work. Will wait until i get the results of the bore inspection next Friday before i commit the additional £10k investment in a stolen recovered 997 !
cmoose
I think your comments are spot on, as you say it's not as if i can save £5k unless i just scrimp on what actually needs doing whilst i have it in bits. It just means long term i will have to hold the car.
I've got a few big ticket items coming up over the coming months so it will probably have to wait for the time being.
Thanks for your comments
I think your comments are spot on, as you say it's not as if i can save £5k unless i just scrimp on what actually needs doing whilst i have it in bits. It just means long term i will have to hold the car.
I've got a few big ticket items coming up over the coming months so it will probably have to wait for the time being.
Thanks for your comments
I've had the weekend to think and ideally I would like to get another engine to rebuild with Hartech performing the mods to the block . IMHO the only bit that's difficult about reassembly of an engine is getting the can timing correct . if any one has a short engine that doesn't need a rebuild then let me know the cost but unless its already been rebuilt by Hartech its value is probably limited
Thanks guys and i agree totally ref Hartech and oil change interval. I'm going to first swop out the £80 of Mobil1 0W40 to see if this stops the tapping sound coming from the right hand bank and then get the car to AW Motor Sport next Friday for a bore inspection. Having looked at the exhaust valve whilst changing the exhaust manifolds after drilling out 7 broken exhaust bolts i discovered that no. 4 pot is sooty compared to the others so i thinks its a case of how much bore scoring there is on No. 4
Will do an update if any one is interested
Will do an update if any one is interested
Hi Guys (and Gals) The snow earlier in the month meant i had to cancel the boroscope with AW motor sport and also the re booking was cancelled but hopefully i will be able to get the car booked in for an inspection next week.
I'm going to repost a new question as i'm loathed to spend any more money on a Gen 1 engine rebuild
I'm going to repost a new question as i'm loathed to spend any more money on a Gen 1 engine rebuild
Thanks for all the advice, the cash finally came available to be spent on the car and hopefully i get it back next week from Hartech.
I did the decent thing and didn't cut corners and had all the bores replaced, new bottom end and chains and a heads rebuilt together with a few coolant pipes, water pump and an IMS upgrade as this was an early smaller bearing IMS. Main cause of failure was bore scoring and piston damage after barely a 1000 miles of ownership. I also replaced the clutch so hopefully i should have a 3.8 that will last another 100k miles but either way it will be treated to oil services every 6k miles or 12 months rather than the rediculous schedule Porsche advise.
I did the decent thing and didn't cut corners and had all the bores replaced, new bottom end and chains and a heads rebuilt together with a few coolant pipes, water pump and an IMS upgrade as this was an early smaller bearing IMS. Main cause of failure was bore scoring and piston damage after barely a 1000 miles of ownership. I also replaced the clutch so hopefully i should have a 3.8 that will last another 100k miles but either way it will be treated to oil services every 6k miles or 12 months rather than the rediculous schedule Porsche advise.
Hartech submitted a reasonable quote to get the car back on the road but i wanted the job doing once and for all so i opted for a fully comprehansive rebuild to future proof the engine. OPC offered to rebuild justing the same components that have been proven to fail time and time again.
I don't have the final, final bill but Hartech bent over backwards to accomodate my requirements for the rebuild and im satisfied with what their charging as OPC wanted circa £20k inc vat to remove, strip and replace with a short block on an exchange basis and that didn't include any extra's like a new clutch kit etc. If any one wants the copy of the OPC quote then feel free to PM me.
Grant at Hartech will probably tell you that every customers approach and requirements are different and yes there are other companies claiming to offer rebuilds on an exchange basis on ebay for £5k if you take them an engine but i did a fair bit of research and Hartech seem to have a good reputation with the troublesome 997 3.8 unit. Sure i also could have saved some money if i removed the engine but to be honest i don't have the time or a four poster so i did some overtime to offset the additional cost
Whilst the engine was out i did a few extra's like the clutch and a few coolant pipes that will need replacement at somepoint. This wasn't even talked about by OPC and hence its fairly easy to see the £20k rising to £25k and hence beyond the economic value of my stolen recovered 997. Yes i know i've spent far more than i should have but i really like the car so will be keeping it unless i can find a reasonable turbo as a replacement.
I don't have the final, final bill but Hartech bent over backwards to accomodate my requirements for the rebuild and im satisfied with what their charging as OPC wanted circa £20k inc vat to remove, strip and replace with a short block on an exchange basis and that didn't include any extra's like a new clutch kit etc. If any one wants the copy of the OPC quote then feel free to PM me.
Grant at Hartech will probably tell you that every customers approach and requirements are different and yes there are other companies claiming to offer rebuilds on an exchange basis on ebay for £5k if you take them an engine but i did a fair bit of research and Hartech seem to have a good reputation with the troublesome 997 3.8 unit. Sure i also could have saved some money if i removed the engine but to be honest i don't have the time or a four poster so i did some overtime to offset the additional cost
Whilst the engine was out i did a few extra's like the clutch and a few coolant pipes that will need replacement at somepoint. This wasn't even talked about by OPC and hence its fairly easy to see the £20k rising to £25k and hence beyond the economic value of my stolen recovered 997. Yes i know i've spent far more than i should have but i really like the car so will be keeping it unless i can find a reasonable turbo as a replacement.
I asked about the 3.9l conversion but was advised that the gain over a standard 3.8 would not be that noticeable compared to converting a 3.6 engined car.
Ulitametly i will probably sell my 964 C2 and get a 997 turbo so if any one knows of a good car coming up for sale mid 2019 please contact me
Ulitametly i will probably sell my 964 C2 and get a 997 turbo so if any one knows of a good car coming up for sale mid 2019 please contact me
Hi Mario
I think the regular oil changes is the way to go, its bonkers the schedules that Porsche and also BMW state but also in there interest long term in terms of selling parts to repair the clapped out motors.
As i'm going to probablu keep my 997 long term due to the outlay i will almost certainly service the car myself as i bought the service reset tool and have my own classic car collection and restoration business failing that maybe a decent Indy like AW In Emsworth.
Looking forward to getting the car back and will do an update if anyone is interested
I think the regular oil changes is the way to go, its bonkers the schedules that Porsche and also BMW state but also in there interest long term in terms of selling parts to repair the clapped out motors.
As i'm going to probablu keep my 997 long term due to the outlay i will almost certainly service the car myself as i bought the service reset tool and have my own classic car collection and restoration business failing that maybe a decent Indy like AW In Emsworth.
Looking forward to getting the car back and will do an update if anyone is interested
Hi folks i collected the car yesterday............
First impression of Hartech ....... Well if there was ever a good way to run a business then these guys really seem to have an excellent approach and are very customer focused. From start to finish i feltl that my custom was valued unlike sitting in an OPC being served mineral water prior to being shafted with a massive bill for dodgy workmanship with a dubious guarantee.
Hartech in comparison served me a cuppa in a proper mug and then Grant walked me through the entire process of rebuilding my failed 997 engine and gave me a tour of the workshop , assembly area, my jobs failed parts bin and then went over the car in detail with it on the ramp and pointed out any future area's of concern and thing to keep an eye on. I asked about the 3rd rad option and was given advice based on experience rather than "pub talk" and then it was time to pay up, discuss further the breaking in period and when the next oil change was due with the option for Hartech to do this for parts cost only.
I departed with a drive of 275 miles ahead and it was a delight with the car no missing a single beat. The main thing i noticed was the car ran far smoother and quieter with all the gauges reading as expected with oil pressure notably better both whilst driving and also more importantly at idle (3.5 Barg)
Although i need to break the car in when traffic allowed i did get to rev the car to 5k rpm after 250 miles and i must say the power delivery was smooth and instantaneous.
In summary Hartech are a very well run professional org that don't need any flashy suited and booted or pencil skirted staff as front of house, the quality of their work and no messing approach to rectifying and rebuilding failed Porsche power units speaks for its self ! Excellent value also when compared to OPC charges.
First impression of Hartech ....... Well if there was ever a good way to run a business then these guys really seem to have an excellent approach and are very customer focused. From start to finish i feltl that my custom was valued unlike sitting in an OPC being served mineral water prior to being shafted with a massive bill for dodgy workmanship with a dubious guarantee.
Hartech in comparison served me a cuppa in a proper mug and then Grant walked me through the entire process of rebuilding my failed 997 engine and gave me a tour of the workshop , assembly area, my jobs failed parts bin and then went over the car in detail with it on the ramp and pointed out any future area's of concern and thing to keep an eye on. I asked about the 3rd rad option and was given advice based on experience rather than "pub talk" and then it was time to pay up, discuss further the breaking in period and when the next oil change was due with the option for Hartech to do this for parts cost only.
I departed with a drive of 275 miles ahead and it was a delight with the car no missing a single beat. The main thing i noticed was the car ran far smoother and quieter with all the gauges reading as expected with oil pressure notably better both whilst driving and also more importantly at idle (3.5 Barg)
Although i need to break the car in when traffic allowed i did get to rev the car to 5k rpm after 250 miles and i must say the power delivery was smooth and instantaneous.
In summary Hartech are a very well run professional org that don't need any flashy suited and booted or pencil skirted staff as front of house, the quality of their work and no messing approach to rectifying and rebuilding failed Porsche power units speaks for its self ! Excellent value also when compared to OPC charges.
All i can say is there was a truck load of work in progress with circa 12 + engines either awaiting strip down or in the process of being rebuilt. My job took circa 3 months from start to finish but well worth the wait IMHO. I did wonder how many 997s are left awaiting a Hartech rebuild even if they were rebuilt by another Indy instead of an OPC.
Given my experience of dealing with Hartech but also OPC i know exactly what route i would select.
Given my experience of dealing with Hartech but also OPC i know exactly what route i would select.
Baz
As i said i was impressed with your company, the guys working there seemed to be enjoying their work despite it being the 1st day back to work after the christmas break
The timescale for the overhaul was reallistic and the options put forward were sensible and hence i only intended having the engine removed once so the replacement of the engine coolant pipes whilst removed together with a cylinder head ovehauls seemed a sensible approach together with a new clutch etc.
Thanks
As i said i was impressed with your company, the guys working there seemed to be enjoying their work despite it being the 1st day back to work after the christmas break
The timescale for the overhaul was reallistic and the options put forward were sensible and hence i only intended having the engine removed once so the replacement of the engine coolant pipes whilst removed together with a cylinder head ovehauls seemed a sensible approach together with a new clutch etc.
Thanks
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