I love my Porsche... just wish Ford had built it

[PaulD86]

Ok, so clickbait title, but my point is this. Driving to work in my 65k mile Mondeo it occurred to me that it has zero faults, zero rattles and has only ever had a set of pads, discs and tyres on top of its annual service.

My 25k mile Cayman on the other hand currently has several trim rattles (one of which has been there the whole time I've owned the car), an exhaust clamp which has rusted through and is on the verge of splitting, lots of little paint chips (especially inside the wheel arches where the paint seems to practically fall off itself) and corrosion on the jacking points. It has also had, under warranty, some exhaust work, the drivers electric window sorted twice and the horn replaced.

The Mondeo is used in all weathers and leads a hard life with bikes and so on being thrown in and out it all the time. It's washed infrequently and gets driven harder than I suspect it was ever designed to be. The Cayman lives in a nice garage, it washed nearly every time it's out, is warmed up gently and treated with respect.

The exhasut clamp and bolts are a prime example. They have clearly been made from the cheapest steel out there and Porsche tell me it's treated as a wear and tear item. The exhaust clamps on the Mondeo which is out all winter on salty roads are all fine. The wheel nuts on the Cayman are rusty, Mondeo ones aren't, the centre badges on the Cayman wheels are starting to corrode, the Mondeo ones aren't. And it goes on.

My other half has a 911 that's on 15k miles and it has a selection of rattles and rusting exhaust clamps and wheel nuts etc too.

Now I know Ford manufacture cars in huge numbers so should have these things sorted, but Porsche aren't exactly Caterham on the production scale and they are a 'premium brand'. You'd think they could find some half decent stainless steel to make parts from, wouldn't you? As I recently said to the service manager at my local OPC, my Cayman is a brilliant car, just think how good it would be if they had built it better. And i'd have happily paid an extra grand for it if it had been built with some better quality parts.

[PaulD86]

300bhp/ton said:

Maybe the answer is:

Fair point. But no, much as I like the Mustang I'm not sure it can offer the handling delicacy or finesse of my Cayman R. And I suspect the depreciation would be more than just sorting the poor build quality issues on the Cayman.

[PaulD86]

Schmed said:

Don't be too harsh, Porsches aren't great for reliability it is true. But nether are rep-cars in my experience. German cars are poor but the worst I ever had was Vauxhall, in fact I think every car I've owned (present one excepted) has had some kind of issues. Must be the way I drive 'em .

Never let that warranty lapse is all I would say...

You make an interesting point on reliability. Bore score on certain engines aside, you don't hear many horror stories on major components like engines and gearboxes. It's like the fundamentals on these cars are there or there about, but then it's all just a bit poorly finished.

The 991.1 does seem to be holding up a bit better than my 987.2, but a quick look underneath does reveal bolts that are more blobs of rust than anything that would ever come off with a socket set. It's just a bit disappointing to be honest. And seems totally unnecessary.

[PaulD86]

ooid said:

Ford? Wait until you own a japanese, ideally Lexus. I've recently sold all my german cars. The build quality, reliability and driving of Lexus way beyond any big european brand. I think in general european brands left their quality engineering and more focus on marketing/styling.

My only Japanese car has been an Impreza. Come to think of it, it was a well built car. No rattles despite being on very firm adjustable AST suspension. I've only experienced the odd Lexus as passenger but they seemed beautifully built. Unfortunately there isn't any of them I'd actually want to own. My issue with many Japanese brands unfortunately. Not to say they aren't good cars, I'm sure they are. Just not my thing.

[PaulD86]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Not sure if you are referring to my original post or subsequent ones. I didn't say Porsche were unreliable. I said I think they are poorly built/use poor quality materials.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Why? When they are failing on Porsches at a rate that anecdotally appears to be faster than other brands then yes, I think that's a perfectly reasonable conclusion to make. My Cayman has had a new horn and 2 of the 3 911s we have had have had one too. Ain't no smoke without fire. I've never known another car have a new horn come to think of it. The only 911 that didn't have a horn replaced was the 997.1, the oldest of the 3. When the dealer even says "we do a lot of these" that sort of says it all. And actually if these aren't Porsche parts that makes it even worse. It means they have knowingly fitted crap to their cars. The exhaust clamp on the back section of the Cayman exhaust, for example, was replaced 3 years ago and the new one is basically split the whole way right now. I'd a nose under the Mondeo this morning. All exhaust brackets are fine. And they have been on the car for a lot longer (since new in '13), more miles and have been outside during the Scottish winters where we use lots of salt on the road. The wheel nuts on that car are also rust free unlike the Porsche. So again, they have fitted a poorer quality part.

Don't get me wrong, I love these cars to drive, but I genuinely wish they were built as well as my Mondeo. I've had 3 of them now and up to 100k miles none have needed anything above and beyond routine servicing, pads and discs, tyres and the odd bulb. Which had just reminded me, the tail light on the current 911 was replaced (whole unit!) when the car was 18 months old as a section of the LEDs failed. And they aren't replaceable.

[PaulD86]

Kawasicki said:

To the OP...what gives you the idea that your Mondeo wasn't designed to be driven hard?

I think common sense would suggest that when setting out the brief for a 2.0 diesel large family hatchback, Ford weren't envisaging the average customer of that product throwing it around on local B roads, regularly testing its limits of adhesion. I may of course be making a ridiculous assumption here and they have have planned it as a rival to the Golf R. Who knows?

[PaulD86]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Lets take the parts that are rusting. Wheel nuts, exhaust clamps, bolts on various components. These items are turning to rust faster than equivalent items on other cars. The cheaper the steel, the quicker it corrodes by and large. So, what conclusion would you draw on what might be going on here? I agree with what 996TT02 has said, everything is built to a price. But I am disappointed that on cars costing what Porsches do, poor quality parts such as bolts are being used. And there are literally hundreds of suppliers of these components who can make them to any number of specs. I enquired about a fitting for a curtain rail in my house recently and was given 8 options on the steel it could be made from. To me it appears Porsche might have a default answer for some components of "cheapest please" when asked what steel they want. I can see why. Makes the car cheaper to build than then when the exhaust clamp fails, again, they can charge me £65 for another. £65 for a piece of crap quality steel with a crap quality bolt in it. It would be funny if it wasn't so irritating.

Now for items that are common to other vehicles, you would expect the same failure rate no matter what it was fitted to. So, for arguments sake, if the horns on Cayman and 911s are the same as an Audi or whatever and they are a known issue on the Porsches but not the Audi then that might suggest that the issue is an implementation one of that component. Which would be the fault of Porsche.

[PaulD86]

Kawasicki said:

PaulD86 said:

Kawasicki said:

To the OP...what gives you the idea that your Mondeo wasn't designed to be driven hard?

I think common sense would suggest that when setting out the brief for a 2.0 diesel large family hatchback, Ford weren't envisaging the average customer of that product throwing it around on local B roads, regularly testing its limits of adhesion. I may of course be making a ridiculous assumption here and they have have planned it as a rival to the Golf R. Who knows?

Common sense from an engineering point of view would mean that handling safety is right at the top of the list when developing a car that can be driven by millions of drivers with different skill levels. Cars are thrown around more in development than 99.9% of customers will ever experience, to ensure that the 0.01% don't die. Vans too, can't say much for trucks as I haven't been involved with their development.

The base model Golf will probably have had more development time being driven at the limit than the Golf R.

Fair point. Although I would suggest that while they are tested at extremes, that's not necessarily the same as expecting them to be used at the more extreme end of their operating window for decent percentages of their lives. Although, maybe that is the case.

[PaulD86]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Of all the cars I have owed only one has ever had rusty wheel nuts. The Porsche. Of the cars I have owned only one has ever had an exhaust component fail. The Porsche. Of the cars I have owned only one has had bolts that are so corroded they are just like blobs of rust. The Porsche.

Now bearing in mind I've owned a 15 year old Volvo and a 13 year old Ford which lived outside in all conditions and didn't manage to achieve these things I'm afraid it suggests the Porsche just might not be using top notch components everywhere. Of course this is anecdotal so cannot possibly be true. Same for the other posters who have noticed the same things as me. But maybe you're right - maybe being detailed, cleaned regularly (including underneath), being kept in a non damp garage and being kept off salty roads and not even used in the wet that much is why the car has more rusty bits than ones used in all weathers and kept outside. It's the obvious conclusion....

I think we need to agree to disagree on this one. Then again, I also prefer the handling of my Cayman on 19s to 18s so that maybe isn't a surprise.

[PaulD86]

gwsinc said:

What annoys me is the inconsistencies in the fittings and fastenings, high quality exhaust and exhaust clamps from new, but with mild steel bolts and fastenings that rust, seize and then cost a fortune to grind off and replace. I see why they do it, x thousand steel bolts are cheaper than x thousand quality stainless ones, but I would expect better from Porsche.

A small change like this would only minimally affect the £14,000 profit they make on each car, and keep enthusiasts like us happy...

Maybe they should add 'Proper stainless steel bolts and fittings' to the options list. Even if that was a grand on the price, I'd have paid it!

[PaulD86]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

cmoose, I think it may be beneficial if you re-read some of the posts in this thread, including my original one. The cheap parts narrative appears to be something you have gerrymandered. No one has said that all parts on their Porsche are cheap and crap quality. No one has suggested some aren't good quality. What has been pointed out is that some parts are failing or rusting at a rate that is not what you would expect of a 'premium' brand such as Porsche and as such are clearly a bit crap.

Parts that rust ridiculously quickly are down to poor quality metal. It is pretty much that simple. The decision to use a particular grade of metal lies with Porsche. Not their supplier. When they ordered exhaust clamps and wheel nuts, for instance, do you imagine that the supplier only offered that one option for metal which was the same for all the businesses they supply? That is not how these things work. I would suggest that they may have bought SOME parts knowing they would last the 3 year warranty period (actually, it was shorter until not all that long ago) and didn't really care when they failed after that. An OPC labour rate is about £150 and they are charging about 60 quid for some of the exhaust clamps. This looks like a nice little earner, especially when in this thread alone there are a selection of people who have had to replace these. Some more than once.

Horns are also appearing to fail rather regularly. I know you won't accept this as it is anecdotal however there are a few posters in this thread who have only experienced horns failing on Porsches, in my case 3/4 of the ones I have first hand experience of. Now I am not suggesting that Porsche would necessarily be getting a worse spec item than another manufacturer, but it could be that they are mounting such items as horns and radiators in bloody stupid places, or in places that would be fine if they had the common sense to then protect them somehow. A little mesh would protect the radiators quite nicely but not only do Porsche not fit this, half the OPCs would deny a warranty claim* if you take steps to sort out what Porsche hadn't done properly in the first place and fit some mesh grills yourself.

Maybe it is a budget management issue. Maybe having spec'd some nice parts, aluminium suspension components for example, Porsche then were left with only £100 to buy all the nuts and bolts to hold all the parts together so they have to nip off to B&Q and buy some Diall finest cheap nuts and bolts with all the ability to repel rust of an old brake disc left out in the rain. Or maybe it is because crap quality nuts and bolts do wonders for the profitability of OPC service departments. Or am I just being too cynical now?

Oh and we haven't really got onto batteries yet. I'm sure cmoose will tell us that they fail as we don't drive the cars enough, or the right distances or leave the cars parked too long but the only one of my cars I have ever had to change a battery in was my Cayman. A car that when not used is left hooked up to a Porsche trickle charger. And being under extended warranty I had to buy the Porsche one. £280 FFS! The Bosch one that does the same job, and is almost certainly better, would have been 1/3rd of the price. I'm sure the wonderful profit margin has nothing to do with the Porsche decision to fit the batteries they do.

And this is where the difference with Ford probably lies. If Mondeo horns failed all the time, the bolts on them rusted to oblivion faster than a Vignale spec model depreciates and exhaust clamps failed at a rate where you were replacing one every third service then people wouldn't buy the Mondeo. They would go and buy an Insignia or a Mazda 6 or an Octavia. Whereas I love the way my Cayman drives and sounds and can't really think of anything else I'd buy instead. There is nothing for the same money I'd rather have. So I put up with the poor build quality. That does not, however, excuse it or mean it doesn't really p!ss me off!

• see thread on this topic. I know I know, it's anecdotal so can't possibly be true

[PaulD86]

RJG46 said:

I thought the new Alpine was going to be the unreliable POS.

If the new Alpine was available as a manual I'd have been interested in looking at them. A fun car has to have 3 pedals for me though. The satisfaction of executing a perfect heel toe downshift is one of the pleasures of driving for me

[PaulD86]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Well if you feel the need to point out that then I'll go for some real bombshells. The pope is Catholic and pigeons crap.

Anyway, the narrative you are pedaling is not what I started this thread about. This thread is about my disappointment with some poor quality standards and practices from Porsche. If you disagree that these exists or whatever then feel free to start a thread to that effect and see who agrees. My point stands. I wish my Porsche was built as well as my ford.