GT3 / 3RS / Touring
Discussion
Yes, another what car thread. Sorry.
After a long absence I've started doing trackdays again. I did Silverstone GP with RMA pre-lockdown with my 964RS. It's a lovely old thing, and drives well, but it's not really very quick in modern company. So I'm feeling the urge to buy something more modern, with a view mainly to track days.
I have a number of cars, including a three old Porsches and an i8 Roadster. At the moment I'm thinking of this as an addition, but...
A) is it worth considering getting a vanilla 991.2 GT3 or even a Touring, and ditching the BMW? I don't need two modern fast road cars, but I worry that I'll end up being annoyed that a base GT3 or a Touring won't be as quick for track use, while the non-Touring at least is a bit "look at me" for normal driving. I do have another convertible for occasional sunny days, but it's getting on a bit and I need something I can do 600 miles to France and back in every other weekend once the present lunacy has faded into history.
B) is the (tiny) power increase from 991.1 GT3RS to 991.2 GT3RS (about 19hp, I think) worth the 30-odd k price difference? I don't really fancy spending £175k when I could spend £140k, especially when I assume the 991.2 cars will fall to current 991.1 pricing fairly quickly.
I also wonder if I should hold fire to see if there is a re-adjustment in pricing; I won't be financing the car. I assume even in the current climate I won't get a look-in at a new 992 GT3, and that in any case it'll be ages before the RS comes out.
WWYD?
After a long absence I've started doing trackdays again. I did Silverstone GP with RMA pre-lockdown with my 964RS. It's a lovely old thing, and drives well, but it's not really very quick in modern company. So I'm feeling the urge to buy something more modern, with a view mainly to track days.
I have a number of cars, including a three old Porsches and an i8 Roadster. At the moment I'm thinking of this as an addition, but...
A) is it worth considering getting a vanilla 991.2 GT3 or even a Touring, and ditching the BMW? I don't need two modern fast road cars, but I worry that I'll end up being annoyed that a base GT3 or a Touring won't be as quick for track use, while the non-Touring at least is a bit "look at me" for normal driving. I do have another convertible for occasional sunny days, but it's getting on a bit and I need something I can do 600 miles to France and back in every other weekend once the present lunacy has faded into history.
B) is the (tiny) power increase from 991.1 GT3RS to 991.2 GT3RS (about 19hp, I think) worth the 30-odd k price difference? I don't really fancy spending £175k when I could spend £140k, especially when I assume the 991.2 cars will fall to current 991.1 pricing fairly quickly.
I also wonder if I should hold fire to see if there is a re-adjustment in pricing; I won't be financing the car. I assume even in the current climate I won't get a look-in at a new 992 GT3, and that in any case it'll be ages before the RS comes out.
WWYD?
Phooey said:
To be fair unless you’re something special they’ll all do the job on track.
The RS just looks the dogs b
ks. IMO.
I’d go RS for the drama, Touring for the under the radar effect.
Scrap the i8
I don't need to scrap the i8; it just seemed a bit excessive to have that and a Touring. If I get an RS I'll keep the i8 - it's a great road car and it's congestion-charge exempt. And it looks like a spaceship, and I don't mind putting 10k miles on it a year which I suspect would rather devalue a Touring (sadly - Porsches used to be mileage-insensitive, but that just doesn't seem to be true any more).The RS just looks the dogs b
ks. IMO.I’d go RS for the drama, Touring for the under the radar effect.
Scrap the i8
Also, if I get a 3RS it will be a lurid colour (probably Ultraviolet or Lava Orange), so having something a little more discreet won't hurt.
I wouldn't say I'm something special, but I have a reasonable collection of silverware (well, actually, it's mostly glassware) so I believe I have a reasonable idea of how to get round a circuit. This is why I'm not going straight for the Touring option - I want something that's in with a reasonable chance of keeping up with anything else vaguely GT-shaped that got to the circuit under its own power. I'm completely not interested in doing "skids" - I want the closest thing to a proper racecar that doesn't put me back in time 20 years with an artic and five engineers and all that palaver.
I did think about a 720s, but am put off by their alleged fragility. There were a couple at the Silverstone day (along with any number of GT3RS) and they are extraordinary-looking things up close. I've always been a Porsche man, really, and like the reasonable certainty that if I don't put the car in the wall it will keep going round until I'm bored and then happily get me home again.
I have been doing some man-maths on the GT2RS, but I think the premiums being asked for these are still silly. If I was going to spend £350k on a £200k car, it would be a 911R. And if I was going to buy a 911R, I doubt I'd thrash it round a track 10 times a year.
Someone asked about the 964RS.
It's a C00 car that went to France in the late 90s. I bought it from a dealer in Paris. It's been tracked, but not raced, by previous owners. Straight, clean, matching numbers, gently tweaked (cup pipe, hot-wire MAF, chip), carbon doors. The Speedlines are reps - I have the original Cup 1 magnesiums, but wouldn't track them. The paint's original but tired - a lot of stone chips; I'm probably going to get it painted (and possibly put the doors back to steel) if I get a new track toy.
I used to race a Cup Car (chassis 33) back in the day (hence the forum name); I bought the RS out of nostalgia, and because Cup Cars now command silly money. I sold mine some time ago, and had modified it so extensively that it wasn't really a Cup Car any more anyway.
In the Cup, it looked like this:
By its last race season (in the Open and Intermarque) it looked like this:
I still miss it, but my God things have moved on in the last 20 years. It was already an old car when I ran it - in its pomp I could just about keep up with a badly-driven 996.1 Cup Car. There are probably some ancient threads on here listing all the things I did to it to make it faster. I ended up road-registering it (which was an odyssey) by which time it had mostly plastic bodywork and glass, a 3.8 with a GT3 crank, Motec and ITBs, all sorts of trick bits, GT2 brakes, a hydraulic handbrake and so on and so forth. And it was resoundingly awful as a road car, but hopelessly under-tyred as a race car: built and set up for slicks, you just couldn't really make it work on 888s (which was the best thing around at the time). So I parked it, then sold it. I understand it was eventually restored to "original" condition - which essentially would have made it a new car entirely - and sold on for megabucks.
I am trying very very hard not to fall back into racing. I hope the 3RS and track days will scratch the itch, because if not it turns out that relatively recent Cup Cars are not dissimilar money. Except of course that buying the car is only the very tip of the wallet-ruining iceberg. It's slightly ironic because the whole racing thing happened because I bought a 993RS in 1998, tracked the living daylights out of it, and ended up being advised by various people to take up racing. Now I'm considering buying another ..3RS in order to track the living daylights out of it. I think I can see where this is heading. Ian Flux and Tim Harvey, this is all your fault. Actually, no, I'm going to blame Mark Sumpter as well. He sold me my first actual race car (a somewhat knackered 3.2 Carrera - actually a 3.0 that had been updated - which spent more time going sideways than forwards). I probably have a (low-res) pic of that somwhere, too, but as I recall this started out as a response to someone asking about the 964RS, not a request for an autobiography.
I'll shut up now.
It's a C00 car that went to France in the late 90s. I bought it from a dealer in Paris. It's been tracked, but not raced, by previous owners. Straight, clean, matching numbers, gently tweaked (cup pipe, hot-wire MAF, chip), carbon doors. The Speedlines are reps - I have the original Cup 1 magnesiums, but wouldn't track them. The paint's original but tired - a lot of stone chips; I'm probably going to get it painted (and possibly put the doors back to steel) if I get a new track toy.
I used to race a Cup Car (chassis 33) back in the day (hence the forum name); I bought the RS out of nostalgia, and because Cup Cars now command silly money. I sold mine some time ago, and had modified it so extensively that it wasn't really a Cup Car any more anyway.
In the Cup, it looked like this:
By its last race season (in the Open and Intermarque) it looked like this:
I still miss it, but my God things have moved on in the last 20 years. It was already an old car when I ran it - in its pomp I could just about keep up with a badly-driven 996.1 Cup Car. There are probably some ancient threads on here listing all the things I did to it to make it faster. I ended up road-registering it (which was an odyssey) by which time it had mostly plastic bodywork and glass, a 3.8 with a GT3 crank, Motec and ITBs, all sorts of trick bits, GT2 brakes, a hydraulic handbrake and so on and so forth. And it was resoundingly awful as a road car, but hopelessly under-tyred as a race car: built and set up for slicks, you just couldn't really make it work on 888s (which was the best thing around at the time). So I parked it, then sold it. I understand it was eventually restored to "original" condition - which essentially would have made it a new car entirely - and sold on for megabucks.
I am trying very very hard not to fall back into racing. I hope the 3RS and track days will scratch the itch, because if not it turns out that relatively recent Cup Cars are not dissimilar money. Except of course that buying the car is only the very tip of the wallet-ruining iceberg. It's slightly ironic because the whole racing thing happened because I bought a 993RS in 1998, tracked the living daylights out of it, and ended up being advised by various people to take up racing. Now I'm considering buying another ..3RS in order to track the living daylights out of it. I think I can see where this is heading. Ian Flux and Tim Harvey, this is all your fault. Actually, no, I'm going to blame Mark Sumpter as well. He sold me my first actual race car (a somewhat knackered 3.2 Carrera - actually a 3.0 that had been updated - which spent more time going sideways than forwards). I probably have a (low-res) pic of that somwhere, too, but as I recall this started out as a response to someone asking about the 964RS, not a request for an autobiography.
I'll shut up now.
isaldiri said:
Well the touring will keep up well enough with 99.9% of GT cars in track if you're a good enough driver. The aero difference between the cars wing or not isn't large enough to make a big difference.
However, no GT road car, not even the .2rs really is anything like a 'proper race car' if that's what you are really after.
Sure. Although I suspect a 3RS on Cup 2s is considerably quicker around corners than my old Cup car. As I said, I fear there's no stopping this process. I think I'm just fighting a delaying action.However, no GT road car, not even the .2rs really is anything like a 'proper race car' if that's what you are really after.
Steve Rance said:
Keep your 964 and buy a 996/7 cup. Much quicker that a GT3, half the price and you don’t have to worry about it when you stick in in the Armco
Sure, but I can't drive it to the circuit. Means I need a trailer, and a tow car, and really at least one engineer along to help - and I have to store everything somewhere. Plus it'll be at most a 100-hour motor and gearbox, so very large rebuild costs every couple of years at best, and you need at least 2 sets of wheels, and you'll get through a set of slicks every four days at best (remember you do, or can do, way more time on circuit on track days than you can racing). I don't know if the Cup cars need race fuel these days, but that's about £3 a litre. And so on, and so forth.I can't see the point of spending all the money necessary to run a proper race car without actually going racing. I want to drive the car to the circuit, do some laps, and then drive home again, which is exactly what I do with the 964RS. I just want to go somewhat faster.
Also, by and large TDOs aren't super keen on full-race cars mixing it with the punters. Even RMA has some caution here - Graham is another of the guilty crew who sent me off racing the first time around. The speed differences, especially in braking and cornering, are so huge that you either terrify other drivers or lead them to the scene of the accident when they try to brake where you're braking and find out they can't.
The problem now is that the consensus seems to be a .2 GT3RS. That's pretty much the same money as a Touring. I really really like the Touring. I very nearly bought one at the start of the year, then got the i8 (and £100k of change) instead in a fit of eco-consciousness (and, frankly, the sense that I already had enough Porsches). I fear I'm now realising that there is in fact no such thing as enough Porsches.
I wonder what strings I'd need to pull to get on the list for a 992.1 Touring? The GT3 is due for launch fairly soon, isn't it, and is now thought to have the same motor as the 991.2 RS?
Otherwise it's a choice between something like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202... and something like this: https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
First world problems.
CorrosionInhibitor said:
With the greatest respect GT silver .2rs ain’t worth that now sorry ..2018 8k cars avail at <£165k.
Where? I can't find a .2 with PCCB, lift, clubsport and 918 chairs at that money anywhere I looked. Cheapest '18 or later 3RS on AT is £173k from an indie. I've also not tried negotiating with anyone yet, granted.I can also only find three properly-specced Tourings in play at the moment for anything resembling sensible money - the blue car I posted, a silver car at OPC Portsmouth and a white one from an indie I've never heard of. Only actual race cars, cars built before 1970 or French cars are allowed to be white, so that leaves two, which is hardly a buyer's market... The other two of the five total for sale on AT right now are a rather nice-looking and grey private sale, but that's on steels, and Knowlhill's comedy £200k red one. The white and grey cars at least have slightly more realistic pricing - I've never felt that the Touring should command the premium it does, but the market has so far proved me wrong. I'm really surprised no one has come up with a conversion kit for normal GT3s - it can't be that hard, can it?
Still can't decide. Suspect whichever one I buy, I'll wish I'd bought the other one. The Touring is arguably cheaper in man maths terms, since I'll chop in the i8 (at the consequence on enormous wrath from SWMBO, since I only bought it in January), but the 3RS is more purposeful.
993rsr said:
LHD an option for you opens up more cars? Plus you get a 90l tank option
For a 3RS? Definitely - in fact one of the cars I'm considering is the del. miles LHD purple one at JZM (991.1). For a Touring, no. Although I do most of my long-distance driving on the continent, so it would make practical sense, I think it'll hit resale too badly (especially if I look to trade it against a 992 GT3, e.g.).
I've imported cars before, but with GBP so weak, I'm assuming it's not worth it unless the European market takes a bath.
None of the ones I could see had chairs, and a lot of them are on steel brakes. Steels may well be the right choice on cost grounds for lots of track work, but I think PCCB is one of the "must-have" options for future resale. Once you get up to "proper" spec, from what I can see, you're into Euro pricing = GBP pricing, so it's only the exchange difference (about 10% at the moment). I don't know enough about the warranty situation on nearly-new LHD cars - presumably a UK dealer will be able to renew the warranty (I know they have to honour it, having had my UK 997 Turbo fixed under warranty in France a while back) - the obvious hassle with importing is that although in theory you have some redress against the supplying dealer, it's too tedious to use it unless the car's a complete lemon.
I can't decide if the Touring is a proper future classic (if there even will be such things) or just a peculiar market reaction to people only realising how cool a no-cost option was after production had finished.
And anyway, I thought I was buying a 991.2GT3RS? Decisions, decisions. Those don't seem to be any cheaper in the Fatherland either - the cheap ones are again on steels with sports seats, not 918 buckets.
It feels like buying a 246 Dino back in the day - "chairs and flares, mate?"
I can't decide if the Touring is a proper future classic (if there even will be such things) or just a peculiar market reaction to people only realising how cool a no-cost option was after production had finished.
And anyway, I thought I was buying a 991.2GT3RS? Decisions, decisions. Those don't seem to be any cheaper in the Fatherland either - the cheap ones are again on steels with sports seats, not 918 buckets.
It feels like buying a 246 Dino back in the day - "chairs and flares, mate?"
2mpete said:
Lovely RS, miss mine deeply.
On the Touring front, really fab cars, fast as most things on track and does definitely dip under the radar as far as most people are concerned. Nowhere near as much interest as my prev 997.2 GT3.
As far as Frequent 600 mile road trips to France are concerned, rather you than me! The car is just so noisy at anything over 60mph - much more so than I expected or my prev GT3.
Given what you’re looking for, keep the i8, add 991RS, either gen should fit your bill I reckon. Lovely problem to solve!
That's very useful, thanks. I've not driven a Touring. We did 1,000s of European miles in my old 993RS Touring, but we were younger then, and I think the 993, in Touring trim, was less extreme. Still the best car I've ever owned, though, and the only one I really shouldn't have sold. Had a look at them when I bought the 964, and couldn't believe how expensive they are now.On the Touring front, really fab cars, fast as most things on track and does definitely dip under the radar as far as most people are concerned. Nowhere near as much interest as my prev 997.2 GT3.
As far as Frequent 600 mile road trips to France are concerned, rather you than me! The car is just so noisy at anything over 60mph - much more so than I expected or my prev GT3.
Given what you’re looking for, keep the i8, add 991RS, either gen should fit your bill I reckon. Lovely problem to solve!
If the 991 Touring isn't actually a usable proposition for touring (and I certainly wouldn't want to do anything of the sort in the 964RS) then I think you're right - do other 991 Touring owners agree?
Then it's the choice between a manual GT3 or a .1 or .2 RS with unavoidable PDK. I can't help feeling that if I don't buy the RS, I'll always look at the inevitable other RSes on every track day with a certain degree of envy, and since I'm buying it as a track car only, I don't really care how much attention it gets or how practical it is. Will I miss having a manual? Possibly, but paddles are the way of the future. I'm still planning to use my 356 for Goodwood in September, and that's about as manual as you can get, so I guess I can get my fix that way,
Cheib said:
Which 356 do you own ? Doing a lot of reading about them at the moment. Be interested to hear what an owner thinks. Going to drive a couple in a the next week or two.
1964 SC, left-hooker, US car originally. Imported in the 90s and used for HSCC racing, then converted back to road use. Andy Prill / Shasta Engineering race motor, still a 1600 but around 115bhp. Quick, for a 356. Not quick in any other sense.
They are lovely old things. But they are lovely *old* things. Doesn't feel like a modern. Doesn't go like a modern. C/SCs will sort of stop like a modern - anything older not so much. If you're driving a B or older, remember that drums don't work so well in reverse...
I'm very fond of mine, but it's a labour of love. Ollie at RPM is presently trying to knock some more of the bugs out it, with a view to having it properly ready for some combination of trips to country pubs, if those are ever a thing again, and gentlemanly track days. It does make driving feel special again, even if you're just nipping into town to pick something up.
Struggling to justify £40k extra for a .2, and not finding any .2s listed cheaper than £180k in the right spec; can see a number of £140k asking .1s. Anyone know what's wrong with the Family Autos or Monarch cars (apart from the comedy name of the first dealership)?
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
https://monarchenterprises.co.uk/current-stock/car...
(ps "Lava Orange" is not an answer to "What's wrong with these cars?". I like orange.)
As an aside, how cheap are McLarens? You can get a 2-year-old 720S Performance for 991.1GT3RS money. I've heard the horror stories, and obviously McLaren may not make it through the present crisis, but would any of you consider turning to the dark side for the extra performance? Are they actually as terrible as some people (usually not people in the actual McLaren forum) make out?
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
https://monarchenterprises.co.uk/current-stock/car...
(ps "Lava Orange" is not an answer to "What's wrong with these cars?". I like orange.)
As an aside, how cheap are McLarens? You can get a 2-year-old 720S Performance for 991.1GT3RS money. I've heard the horror stories, and obviously McLaren may not make it through the present crisis, but would any of you consider turning to the dark side for the extra performance? Are they actually as terrible as some people (usually not people in the actual McLaren forum) make out?
lowndes said:
I have some P cars including a Touring. 720S is right up there with the best. It’s a 19 car I’ve had from new and have had zero problems. Beautifully balanced and fast but equally enjoyable when on a tour. No manual of course so H&T aficionados may not like it but then manual GT3 and Touring have rev match so is it really such an issue?
In its element
[snip]Lovely pic[/snip]
If you were planning to do 12 track days a year, say 3 hours track time per day, driving for lap times, would you expect the 720 to suck it up and shrug it off, or to be temperamental or fragile? Porsche maintenance isn't cheap as such, but I understand McLaren to be even less cheap and parts supply to be occasionally challenging, and with a 3RS I feel fairly confident that I can do that kind of thing and only expect to pay for tyres, discs, pads, fluids and labour - and more importantly, for the car always to be available to do it.In its element
[snip]Lovely pic[/snip]
isaldiri said:
Your consumables bill is going to be astronomical in the Mclaren given the above if you are seriously trying for quick times.
I'm assuming the main cost (apart from labour) will be brakes? Presumably there are warranty issues if one uses aftermarket brakes like Surface Transforms?I'm currently thinking about buying a 3RS and then switching to Surface Transform carbon discs. I understand even the latest gen PCCBs have significant wear issues on track. I imagine I'd keep the original discs/pads etc and then switch back on resale. I haven't yet looked into the effect of this on warranty, however. I've not owned a new Porsche for yonks, so don't have a live relationship with an OPC and hence an ability to stretch the rules.
I'm assume that, with some care, it's possible to continue to benefit from Porsche's warranty while tracking the car, and that this is sensible relative to the likely cost of repairs.
Far Cough said:
OP - Have you considered the CSR models that RPM teknic sell ? I have no affiliation with them but you want a reasonably fast car that track focused and has plenty of feel. You also want to drive to and from the trackday. They won't have the cutting edge tec inside as far as sat Nov and music streaming etc but I think on the face of it one of these is right up your street. It's upto you then how ”racecar" you want to make it.
Just a suggestion ??
I did think about it. I also thought about building a 964 or 993 race rep thing - throw enough money at it and you can make them fast(-ish). Or an Ultima. Or road-registering an old race car (like a Ferrari Challenge car). Just a suggestion ??
I decided that a) I didn't want the endless hassle of bitsas where there's always something not quite working right - I want a turnkey experience with a warranty behind it, b) I want the car now, not in 24 months' time and c) I want the absolute cutting edge, the apogee of current track car technology, subject to being able to drive to the track.
If I want an analogue experience, I can take the 964RS; if I want to spend most of my time looking out of a side window while not actually going very fast, I can take the 356.
For this use case, I want to drive to the track without it making me utterly miserable (so not a Radical or a BAC Mono or something), get as close to race laps as a road car will allow (which isn't very close, but the gap between a 3RS and even a hopped-up 997 is huge in that respect), and then drive home again. I plan to do a lot of further-flung tracks: I have 4 days booked at Spa this year, for instance, so whatever I buy has to be able to do motorway miles without my teeth falling out, my ears being deafened or my eyes filling up with flies.
I originally wanted to spend about £140k; I'm forming the view that I might need to go to £180k.
I think that gives me a few options:
.2 GT3 manual; .2 GT3 touring; .2 GT3RS
600LT / 675LT / 720S
Maybe a 488, but obviously not a Pista, so not really a track car
Huracan Performante
AMG GT-R
Or, if I'm feeling cheap:
Audi R8 GT
Exige Cup 430
My instinct is to get the .2 3RS as I'm a Porsche guy, and I have confidence it won't break.
But...McLaren offers astonishing numbers for the money - my fear is they'll break; I assume the AMG would be reliable, and Harris seemed to like it - I just don't like the way they look, and they are still more of a road car, I think. The Huracan is surely more show than go, but I have no experience of the brand (and they're basically Audis under the skin, no?). The 488 I'd rule out as it's a road car, plus it's a Ferrari and so will cost a fortune to run and break a lot, based on my past experience. The Audi is cheap to get into and could lend itself to mods, but then I'm back to my original bitsa objections.
The Lotus, though. Less than £90k. >400bhp/ton. Hmm.
If I'm going to use the car properly and put serious miles on it, I can't help feeling the 3RS (or any of the other exotics) is going to be a costly proposition. No one seems to actually use them, so a 25,000+ mile example with 20-odd track days behind it is likely to be a hard sell.
The Lotus, on the other hand, is cheap to start with, so even if it loses half its value it's not a big issue. And I suspect it will be quite fun to drive.
The more I think about this, the harder it gets.
Heathrow said:
Have you considered buying a 991.2 GT3 manual with front axle lift and de-winging to create your own touring? Would leave plenty of budget for further mods to your taste. Premium for a proper Touring seems difficult to justify by any objective measure.
I can recommend trying a V6 Exige.I think a 380 / 410 / 430 would be suitable for your intended track use but in my experience is more compromised and therefore harder work on longer road trips. Not impossible, but clearly less habitable than a modern GT car for comparison.
This is a great thread btw.
Yes - but I can't find anyone offering to do it. You can put a ducktail on the car (there are US kits) but I'd be concerned about aero balance when used properly - something I'd also want to understand before converting to a proper motorised lid. I think the air intakes on the Touring are quite different to the winged car, so it's not necessarily straightforward.I can recommend trying a V6 Exige.I think a 380 / 410 / 430 would be suitable for your intended track use but in my experience is more compromised and therefore harder work on longer road trips. Not impossible, but clearly less habitable than a modern GT car for comparison.
This is a great thread btw.
On the Lotus - which only occurred to me today - I have to say I'm tempted. I'm not bothered about how compromised it is as a road car as long as it's neither dangerous nor deafening. (My road-registered Cup car was both). I'm not planning to do any touring in it, or use it for fun on the road, so as long as I can stand getting to Spa or the 'ring in the thing, that'll be fine.
What really appeals about the Lotus is the relative inexpensiveness. If I do stick it in the wall, or put loads of miles on it, I'm not going to drop £100k.
On the other hand, I can't quite work out why I care about this. I'm not buying the car as an investment, and I've lost that kind of money on cars before. I suppose I'm just getting sensible in my old age.
I might arrange to try a Lotus just to see. I'll also drive a 3RS at some point, but broadly it's a GT Porsche on steroids, so I know what to expect. It's pretty clear that the .2 is materially better than the .1, so I know I'd have to get the .2 or suffer pangs of envy every time I saw someone with a .2 in the paddock.
Porsche911R said:
if you are worried about paddock envy then the WP RS .2 is the only car to buy and make it a PTS one :-)
Not that kind of envy. Better car envy, not more expensive car envy. Very much doubt the WP makes any real difference to lap times, but apparently the suspension and aero changes on the .2, more than the extra 20-odd HP. make for a significantly better package.Porsche911R said:
if you enjoy driving and don't want to get involved with cock waving you need to get the manual winged GT3.
forget the touring, if you want the RS performance, not having the down force and having the extra drag and the 20 bhp loss you wont keep with your RS mates, which might be frustrating.
the winged manual GT3 has the lease drag and the most BHP to the wheels and the RAM air effect the touring misses with the down force the same as a 997.2 4.0 RS its true >200mph car.
even a stock gt3 just with TTX will out lap time a .2 RS.
but if you want the feel then the cup LCA really help the steering and feedback.
if you spend the full £180k you would have a stunning manual bespoke GT3 and if driven well would lap faster than any RS WP Automatic.
Not ignoring this option. Also quite like the idea of doing it bit-by-bit to get the feel of the improvements. But...you end up with a car worth a lot less than the sum of its parts, I suspect. And anyway, I need to adjust to this new world where Porsches are like Ferraris and people don't expect them to have been driven. Once upon a time 100k meant nicely run in. Now they're all garage queens, it appears. If I'm going to do a whole load of mods, I'd want to start with a cheaper car - something with miles on it, sofas and steels and so on, then change out the suspension, seats, put a cage in if there isn't one, ST carbons and so on. That means finding a 4.0 manual that someone has actually driven. Even in Germany they're still 140k EUR. Mind you, there are a couple of Tourings at around that price...forget the touring, if you want the RS performance, not having the down force and having the extra drag and the 20 bhp loss you wont keep with your RS mates, which might be frustrating.
the winged manual GT3 has the lease drag and the most BHP to the wheels and the RAM air effect the touring misses with the down force the same as a 997.2 4.0 RS its true >200mph car.
even a stock gt3 just with TTX will out lap time a .2 RS.
but if you want the feel then the cup LCA really help the steering and feedback.
if you spend the full £180k you would have a stunning manual bespoke GT3 and if driven well would lap faster than any RS WP Automatic.
Nuttcase said:
Porsche911R said:
https://youtu.be/2_QcQS0gVsk
no lacking PPF engine sounds either, these sound the bomb.
Some great tree shots in that video.no lacking PPF engine sounds either, these sound the bomb.
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 3rd June 14:03
seawise said:
Great thread.
in my humble opinion
-best value would be a 991.2 GT3 clubsport (also the one that will lead itself best to future mods) - stick or slush, your choice.
-best out of the box track car the 991.2 GT3 RS.
-worst value for sure the 991.2 GT3 touring, but it does appeal to many, but only available in 2nd production run, so low numbers, thus silly values.
i ticked the 'touring' option box from new - love mine - use it quite a lot, damn the future values, life too short. it works as a daily, comfortable enough to drive to circuit, strong enough to lap all day, and then drive home afterwards. to me it's a modern day 964RS. and i have one of those in the garage also for short sharp kicks !
all i will say in the touring's defense (why oh why do i find myself repeatedly having to do this, i will never learn) is that when i have tracked mine (at Spa, Nordschiefe and Silverstone) i have never found it lacking, and if you can pedal (clearly that is a given with your experience) you'll be one of the fastest cars on the circuit even on an RMA day (excluding most race cars on slicks etc). even at the BRDC members day at Silverstone last year it didn't disgrace itself.
anyway a fun conundrum to have, thanks for sharing.
I can't say I'm not tempted by a Touring, especially if I could have it do to both European errands and track days. I'd have to be happy with compromising on tyres (or run two sets of wheels, I suppose) since Cup 2 Rs probably aren't the best choice for torrential Normandy rain, and I'd have to leave the geometry and suspension alone - no car I've ever owned with a proper track set up was any fun to drive on the road.in my humble opinion
-best value would be a 991.2 GT3 clubsport (also the one that will lead itself best to future mods) - stick or slush, your choice.
-best out of the box track car the 991.2 GT3 RS.
-worst value for sure the 991.2 GT3 touring, but it does appeal to many, but only available in 2nd production run, so low numbers, thus silly values.
i ticked the 'touring' option box from new - love mine - use it quite a lot, damn the future values, life too short. it works as a daily, comfortable enough to drive to circuit, strong enough to lap all day, and then drive home afterwards. to me it's a modern day 964RS. and i have one of those in the garage also for short sharp kicks !
all i will say in the touring's defense (why oh why do i find myself repeatedly having to do this, i will never learn) is that when i have tracked mine (at Spa, Nordschiefe and Silverstone) i have never found it lacking, and if you can pedal (clearly that is a given with your experience) you'll be one of the fastest cars on the circuit even on an RMA day (excluding most race cars on slicks etc). even at the BRDC members day at Silverstone last year it didn't disgrace itself.
anyway a fun conundrum to have, thanks for sharing.
You sound as though you think it's a perfectly sensible proposition for touring (clue, I suppose, in the name) as well as track work. An earlier poster thought Tourings were too noisy for long-distance work (I don't care if I'm driving to a circuit, but if I'm doing 600 miles in 24 hours to talk to a French builder, I very much do care).
I'm going to have to drive one, I suppose. Which makes it even more of a PITA that they've become over-valued garage queens, so I have to find a dealer that's not precious about it. And then not buy it from them, because you can get left-hooker Tourings for EUR 150K, which seems a bit more reasonable than the UK's £175k for a two-year-old car that listed at £130k at most.
I am going to try an Exige Cup 430 too. Just to see. I'm still drawn to the idea of something that's completely track-specific. And I'll get Ollie to let me try his .2RS to complete the set.
And then I'll come back here with the same conundrum and you can all take the mick when I stop faffing about and buy this https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/106816/p... or something like it instead, and spend the change on a trailer and spares and engine rebuilds and gearbox rebuilds and tyres and telemetry and a mechanic and replacing all my kit with stuff that hasn't been lifed out for 15 years and race entry fees and oh god here we go again.
My wife will not be happy.
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