Supercharged AJP8. one last step!
Discussion
Its been a project now for 18months but at long last I will find out if fitting a supercharger is a worthwhile method on increasing power on an AJP8 4.5. To be honest if I knew how much hassle it was going to have been then I would have never started as they are not exactly an underpowered car to start with.
As my son said "you are a complete knob with your cars why dont you leave them alone, its fast enough", well that was a challenge in itself so off I went.
After several aborted and costly starts with different inlet cofigurations including a 4.2inlet manifolds and Mustang throttle bodies I have arrived at my present setup which is the 4.5 setup but with the butterflys moved to above the injectors.
I stripped and rebuilt the engine including new undersize liners, gas flowed and ported heads with balanced and matched chambers, total seal rings, new guides, race bearings, complete assembly dynamically balanced. Raceprooved flywheel and slave cylinder new AP clutch,new chains, ACT manifolds and water pipes.
The supercharger is a Vortech V2 SQ hopefully running about 8psi of boost. The injectors are sized at 470cc and are fed from a Bosch 044 race fuel pump.
The engine is running an Emerald ECU with a map sensor and wideband Lamda sensor.
The system just needs mapping,it does run and appears to produce serious accelleration so its off to Emerald on the 28th Feb to let Dave Walker map the system. I let you know what happens. I just hope its all been worthwhile.
I can stick up some more pictures if anyones interested in the project.
As my son said "you are a complete knob with your cars why dont you leave them alone, its fast enough", well that was a challenge in itself so off I went.
After several aborted and costly starts with different inlet cofigurations including a 4.2inlet manifolds and Mustang throttle bodies I have arrived at my present setup which is the 4.5 setup but with the butterflys moved to above the injectors.
I stripped and rebuilt the engine including new undersize liners, gas flowed and ported heads with balanced and matched chambers, total seal rings, new guides, race bearings, complete assembly dynamically balanced. Raceprooved flywheel and slave cylinder new AP clutch,new chains, ACT manifolds and water pipes.
The supercharger is a Vortech V2 SQ hopefully running about 8psi of boost. The injectors are sized at 470cc and are fed from a Bosch 044 race fuel pump.
The engine is running an Emerald ECU with a map sensor and wideband Lamda sensor.
The system just needs mapping,it does run and appears to produce serious accelleration so its off to Emerald on the 28th Feb to let Dave Walker map the system. I let you know what happens. I just hope its all been worthwhile.
I can stick up some more pictures if anyones interested in the project.
These are the modified throttle bodies. The use the original butterflys and shafts, The throttle linkage is a modified jenvey system for a V8.
This was the supercharger bracket. I got this lazer cut and welded together by a specialist to my design. I needed to make some spacers up to get the pulleys to run true.
This was the first attempt at an inlet plenum, I ran the engine last summer with this on without the supercharger, joolz mapped this set up with the MBE and it made 405bhp without the charger but part throttle openings caused judder in the drive train. It was also going to be difficult to connect up to the supercharger outlet so it was eventually dropped. I still have this setup and if anyone would like to try it for a twin turbo set up or similar they are welcome to try it.
Will post up more project pictures later.
This was the supercharger bracket. I got this lazer cut and welded together by a specialist to my design. I needed to make some spacers up to get the pulleys to run true.
This was the first attempt at an inlet plenum, I ran the engine last summer with this on without the supercharger, joolz mapped this set up with the MBE and it made 405bhp without the charger but part throttle openings caused judder in the drive train. It was also going to be difficult to connect up to the supercharger outlet so it was eventually dropped. I still have this setup and if anyone would like to try it for a twin turbo set up or similar they are welcome to try it.
Will post up more project pictures later.
Boosted Cerb said:
Did you manage to get any trumpets in the plenum? Won't really effect the top power much if not but may make mapping the low speed regions difficult, cylinder robbing etc.
I dont have trumpets as room above the engine is limited and I dont want a bonnet bulge. I hope by keeping individual throttles and moving them to the correct place, ie after the injectors on each intake it should minimise robbing and possibly increase part throttle responce due to better fuel atomisation.The supercharger looks bigger than it is due to the angle of the photo. Its rated at 750bhp max so its not small but as the Vortech range of superchargers go up to 2400bhp it is one of their smaller units.
I will try and find the pictures of the Plenum with the top off as its not just an empty box, there is an inner plenum that hopefully helps distribute the air evenly over all cylinders.
Hi steve, thanks for the info any advise, tips are very welcome,
what boost are you running on the wedge. I'm guessing that it must be quiet high as your increasing your power from 350ish to 540bhp. Also what ECU are you running?
I did increase the cumbustion chamber size to 52.5cc which was quiet a lot of metal to remove. I took a measurement and worked out the CR to be around 10.5:1 static. I know ideally around 9:1 would be better but I'm not sure what the dynamic CR would be on this engine as it has so many factors to consider and I think the only real concrete test will be to try it.
I did seek advise from Vortech and they say at low boost values of around 5 to 7 psi a charge cooler and blowoff valve are not necessary and can in some cases cause more problems than they solve.
I think its worth trying in its current state to see what happens and then I can decide from there on which way to go.
I have not built the car as a racer, Its a road car with full aircon, CD player, fluffy dice and so on.... so I'm only aiming for over 500bhp hopefully at something less than 7500rpm as I think it is rev's that destroy engines and not power.
what boost are you running on the wedge. I'm guessing that it must be quiet high as your increasing your power from 350ish to 540bhp. Also what ECU are you running?
I did increase the cumbustion chamber size to 52.5cc which was quiet a lot of metal to remove. I took a measurement and worked out the CR to be around 10.5:1 static. I know ideally around 9:1 would be better but I'm not sure what the dynamic CR would be on this engine as it has so many factors to consider and I think the only real concrete test will be to try it.
I did seek advise from Vortech and they say at low boost values of around 5 to 7 psi a charge cooler and blowoff valve are not necessary and can in some cases cause more problems than they solve.
I think its worth trying in its current state to see what happens and then I can decide from there on which way to go.
I have not built the car as a racer, Its a road car with full aircon, CD player, fluffy dice and so on.... so I'm only aiming for over 500bhp hopefully at something less than 7500rpm as I think it is rev's that destroy engines and not power.
well at long last I went to Emerald yesterday and got the supercharged AJP mapped. The engine and car performed perfectly. The guys at Emerald are brilliant and I am really please with the results they dont overcomplicate things and waffle, they just know exactly what they are doing.
To completly map their ECU with 3 different maps, 1st map 97 octane, 2nd map 95 octane, 3rd map novice drivers safety map? (mine)
£305.00+vat!!!!!. Car runs better than ever 900RPM in 5th and it just pulls and pulls. Floor the throttle in any gear and the performance is stunning.
Figures are as folllows: 535bhp at 6250rpm. 460ftlbs torque at 5354rpm didnt want to take it any higher as the engine has only done 500miles and only has semisynthetic oil at present. The supercharger is producing 6psi of boost. No detonation problems or overheating even though the car was on the rollers for 8hrs. I think with some differnt pullies careful mapping at the higher RPM maybe 600bhp could be possible. One unexpected plus point is the throttle responce, its instant no lag it picks up like a bike engine (Emeralds comments not mine)
Once its run in I will try and get some performance figures. So if it all holds together then I think its been a worthwhile project.
To completly map their ECU with 3 different maps, 1st map 97 octane, 2nd map 95 octane, 3rd map novice drivers safety map? (mine)
£305.00+vat!!!!!. Car runs better than ever 900RPM in 5th and it just pulls and pulls. Floor the throttle in any gear and the performance is stunning.
Figures are as folllows: 535bhp at 6250rpm. 460ftlbs torque at 5354rpm didnt want to take it any higher as the engine has only done 500miles and only has semisynthetic oil at present. The supercharger is producing 6psi of boost. No detonation problems or overheating even though the car was on the rollers for 8hrs. I think with some differnt pullies careful mapping at the higher RPM maybe 600bhp could be possible. One unexpected plus point is the throttle responce, its instant no lag it picks up like a bike engine (Emeralds comments not mine)
Once its run in I will try and get some performance figures. So if it all holds together then I think its been a worthwhile project.
Boosted Cerb said:
And the fun don't stop yet.... make sure you can monitor the intake temps easily I think you can set alarm limits within the emerald to light the MIL?? Also might be worth setting up a knock sensor, I would have thought the emerald could take the input or fit a stand alone unit.
Rich.
Do you run an Emerald on your car?Rich.
We were monitoring the intake temps during the mapping and at one stage they rose to 60 degrees (45 was the norm) in the plenum after several hours on the rollers but it didnt appear cause any knock problems which we monitored very carefully.
I will monitor the temperatures with my laptop over the next few weeks and see what a session of spirited driving on the road makes them rise too. What is nice is you don't have to thrash the fock out of the engine to get the performance. It has a soft cut at 6250rpm and a hard cut at 6500rpm which is much lower than the 7250rpm they normally have so will hopefully help preserve the engines internals.
I must look on the ignition map and see what advance they are running. I was using optimax fuel. It knocked with the standard 4.5 map but they backed the timing off by a few degrees and it solved the problem. It now has a complete custom map that has virtually no resemblance to the original AJP8 map.
I'm not 100% sure of my CR. I opened out the combustion chambers to 52cc which was quiet a bit of metal to remove. Its also running the latest Bosch multihole injectors and has the one off throttle bodies...maybe these have helped?
I suspect though that a lot will be down to the mapping and as I said before the Guys at Emerald just know exactly what they are doing, I cannot recommend Dave and his partners enough.
Brummmie said:
Nice work, did Dave have to fudge his dyno so you could get a reading?
I think so. Had about 4 straps and 4 sacks of stones in the boot to stop the wheelspin at higher RPM thats what caused the saw tooth effect at the top of the graph. I hear you bent a wheel on a kerb when you were up there. Dave also said he would never go out in a clients car again especuially a Cerb after the ride in yours.
Gazzab said:
Wow Iike that!!
Hope it is a fun drive! What's the throttle response feel like with your bespoke throttle bodies and the power on tap so early?
John at Emerald who does all the fine tuning of the maps was very impressed with the responce. "its like a bike engine" was one comment. I will log the responce using the Emeralds datalogger and post up the results. It will be interesting to compare it to a modern engine like the lexus V8 that made mag headlines by being so responsive tickover to 8000rpm in 0.9sec if I remember.Hope it is a fun drive! What's the throttle response feel like with your bespoke throttle bodies and the power on tap so early?
ChimpanLucky said:
Hi Paul, thanks for the brief run up the M1 last night.
I would simply describe the performance as extraordinary.
Madeira Drive
Your more than welcome. Anyone who is passing through my area and is interested is welcome to come and see the car and If its possible I will take you out in it or we could meet for a beer somewhere. I live near Reading Berkshire. I would simply describe the performance as extraordinary.
Madeira Drive
Its a shame more of you PH's dont come to the Ace Cafe, its a good night out, unfortunatley the Lotus owners out numbered the TVR's last night. Look on the Ace website theres lots of different night to attend. The last petrolhead nirvana was a good one.
As an update on the car I think I am going to fit an electric waterpump and a larger radiator to assist cooling in traffic. The charge temperature also go up very quickly in traffic (60deg C) so I think an intercooler would help. Apparently a 10deg drop in charge temperature is worth 2.5% more BHP.
well after a summers with only minor niggles use have decided to do a few jobs on the cerb.
I've got a few issues to sort out on the engine, not to sure if its related to the supercharger or not but it gets very hot in slow traffic, so I have decided to fit the EWP 115 davies craig water pump to assist with water flow at slow speeds.
Also going to fit either a charge cooler or air to air intercooler (ideas please) as I found that the charge temp was going north of 60degrees on extended drives.
Will post up some pictures as I go along, any suggestions on technical issues I might encounter would be appreciated. The EWP pump and contoller is going to look after the electric fans as well as the water pump.
I've got a few issues to sort out on the engine, not to sure if its related to the supercharger or not but it gets very hot in slow traffic, so I have decided to fit the EWP 115 davies craig water pump to assist with water flow at slow speeds.
Also going to fit either a charge cooler or air to air intercooler (ideas please) as I found that the charge temp was going north of 60degrees on extended drives.
Will post up some pictures as I go along, any suggestions on technical issues I might encounter would be appreciated. The EWP pump and contoller is going to look after the electric fans as well as the water pump.
Not to sure if its the right choice for a road car as you only have cooling for as long as the tank lasts. Theres plenty of room in front of the engine as well which would suit a chargecooler, but these are a little more complex with tanks pumps etc etc. I really like the idea of a air to air intercooler as its so simple. My current train of thought is looking at an air to air intercooler mounted where the glass fibre airbox and air filter is located...just not sure if it will be a big enough space.
First of the few winter projects out of the way. I have always found the engine runs hot on idle and in slow traffic which was causing some "knock" on low throttle. I use to dread summer traffic jams as you could be sure the engine temp would hover around maximum with fans flat out.
I decided to fit a EWP 115 water pump and controller to assist with the circulation of water. I have left the original pump working removed the thermostat housing and fitted the pump where the housing was, this seemed sensible as it is likely to be where the new pump would be most beneficial to assisting circulation. Initial test seem to show it works great. Used the Emerald ECU to switch fan 1 on at 85deg fan 2 on at 90deg and both fans to stop at 80deg. Then set up the EWP controller to come on at 80deg. I ran the engine at various speeds (car stationary) including tick over for over 2hrs and the temp never went above 85deg and below 80deg. Another benefit is when you turn the engine off the pump keeps running until 80deg is reached so there should be no heat soak in the engine after a session of hard driving. Pictures to follow.
I decided to fit a EWP 115 water pump and controller to assist with the circulation of water. I have left the original pump working removed the thermostat housing and fitted the pump where the housing was, this seemed sensible as it is likely to be where the new pump would be most beneficial to assisting circulation. Initial test seem to show it works great. Used the Emerald ECU to switch fan 1 on at 85deg fan 2 on at 90deg and both fans to stop at 80deg. Then set up the EWP controller to come on at 80deg. I ran the engine at various speeds (car stationary) including tick over for over 2hrs and the temp never went above 85deg and below 80deg. Another benefit is when you turn the engine off the pump keeps running until 80deg is reached so there should be no heat soak in the engine after a session of hard driving. Pictures to follow.
The EWP I used was the alloy bodied 115 litres minute model with the digital speed controller. Its only designed in my application to assist with cooling at low RPM tick over speeds in traffic. The EWP can be used in conjunction with the original pump as water will easily flow over the either impellor so the pump with the greater output does the work, ie the EWP at low RPM and the original mechanical pump at higher RPM. It does work well because I logged the temperature on the Emerald ECU and the is a noticeable difference after the EWP starts. Will have to wait until its back on the road for a full test but holding the engine at about 3000rpm for 10 minutes when it was already hot did not cause any issues.
Another thought I have had is reversing the direction of the cooling fans at speeds below 5mph. I could programme an output on the ECU which would operate a relay which would reverse the cooling fan direction, above 5mph the fans would revert back to the normal direction. I don't think under bonnet temperatures are helped when both fans start up and blow the hot air from the Rad directly into the engine bay. What do you guys think of this idea.
Another thought I have had is reversing the direction of the cooling fans at speeds below 5mph. I could programme an output on the ECU which would operate a relay which would reverse the cooling fan direction, above 5mph the fans would revert back to the normal direction. I don't think under bonnet temperatures are helped when both fans start up and blow the hot air from the Rad directly into the engine bay. What do you guys think of this idea.
gerradiuk said:
Paul do you know what pressure the 115 pump operate's at, I see it pumps 115 ltrs per min ?
The pump is a davies craig EWP, they have a good web site so you may find your answer there. I would have thought that you need either a head of water or some sort of back pressure / restriction to generate pressure against the impellor and an engine cooling system is going to be designed specifically to avoid this. What was your intended use for the EWP.Byker28i said:
a1rak said:
Another thought I have had is reversing the direction of the cooling fans at speeds below 5mph. I could programme an output on the ECU which would operate a relay which would reverse the cooling fan direction, above 5mph the fans would revert back to the normal direction. I don't think under bonnet temperatures are helped when both fans start up and blow the hot air from the Rad directly into the engine bay. What do you guys think of this idea.
Whats the hottest bit in the engine bay, the manifolds/exhaust?I'd have thought you'd have needed airflow over them?
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